Where is/can Donald Trump take US (sic)?

[Darc Knight]

In a perfect world.



I don't think people realize how violent other countries are though. Or how far people will push if its left unchecked. People degenerate fast.

The US do a lot of bad.... a lot. But imagine if Russia, or China were calling the shots.
What if Germany wasn't contained, or Japan. Those countries evolved into something a lot safer now. They did go through a lot of pain and self reflection.

I think china is almost at that level. Might not have a choice anyway.
Russia has a way to go yet.

This.
Russia and Jina don't have a lot of opposition from within do they. Democracies like the U.S. have local media and political opponents undermining everything they do. I'm not a Trump fan boy but when it comes to pushing back against regimes like Putin's Russia, Jina and Rocket Man's NK I'm with Donald.

 

[Darc Knight]

Gotta love Rudolph Giuliani undermining everything Trump does ....... or is it all a deliberate strategy by Trump, like the deliberate leaks from within the Trump camp previously. Trump is known for this type of thing.

 

[SirRumpole]

Gotta love Rudolph Giuliani undermining everything Trump does ....... or is it all a deliberate strategy by Trump, like the deliberate leaks from within the Trump camp previously. Trump is known for this type of thing.

That stuff about Kim getting down and begging for a summit. Crass and uneccessary triumphalism. The US diplomatic corps must have been shuddering.

 

[Darc Knight]

That stuff about Kim getting down and begging for a summit. Crass and uneccessary triumphalism. The US diplomatic corps must have been shuddering.

Yes, Giuliani would certainly have known the possible ramifications of such statements. It was crass bragging and I suspect strategic ahead of the Summit. Guiliani would be one of Trump's closest confidants you'd think?

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, Giuliani would certainly have known the possible ramifications of such statements. It was crass bragging and I suspect strategic ahead of the Summit. Guiliani would be one of Trump's closest confidants you'd think?

With friends like that, Trump may prefer Kim.

 

[luutzu]

In a perfect world.



I don't think people realize how violent other countries are though. Or how far people will push if its left unchecked. People degenerate fast.

The US do a lot of bad.... a lot. But imagine if Russia, or China were calling the shots.
What if Germany wasn't contained, or Japan. Those countries evolved into something a lot safer now. They did go through a lot of pain and self reflection.

I think china is almost at that level. Might not have a choice anyway.
Russia has a way to go yet.

If you ask the Afghani who's a more benevolent overlord - Russia or the US. They'll probably tell you it's about the same. Explosives kill everyone equally.

Ask those IndoChinese whether French Enlightenment or Japanese Asia for the Asians or American Freedom and Liberty... same same.

Whether American imperialism is Russian or Chinese etc. are better or worst depends on who you're asking. Their allies or their subject.

The only good thing about Western countries, and good while it still last, are those freedom and civil rights its plebs get to enjoy. The more money they have, the more they get to enjoy it, but still, it's something.

And those rights weren't given to the people; it didn't came from the ruling elite or from the kindness of Western imperialism. It was won from struggles and fights by generations of activist and social justice hippies.

I don't follow it, just merely listen here and there... but those rights are being eroded for quite a few decades now.

There's the gov't rights to invade all its citizens privacy - "looking at the envelopes"... just the envelope are all your emails and phone calls and eavesdropping from all smart phones and web cams etc. Nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide is the excuse. That and capturing of terrorists who obviously all plan and schedule their attacks online and through the web.

Anyway, off topic...

As to US imperialism is kinder to Nazi or Imperial Japan's...

Put it this way.

After WWII, the US systematically reinstate all Nazi collaborators in "free Europe". Suppress and overthrow "communists" who fought and organised against the Nazi.

It's the same across Asia. In S/Korea they kick out Korean nationalists and reinstate Japanese collaborators. S/Korea was pretty much a dictatorship until about the 1980s or so.


So if Japan and the Nazi had won WWII... the Middle East would pretty much be as it is today. Differences would be maybe no Jewish state. Maybe another clan instead of the Saudis ruled that Arabian peninsula. Maybe Russia would be a very large province in the Third Reich instead of an independent nuclear power.

Japan would rule Asia. The Chinese would start to enjoy Sushi... Australia would have plenty of White terrorists not liking its oil and resources being shipping north east for nothing.

The US will have to content itself with the Americas.



----------

I didn't know about the Soviets and Israel in Egypt.

Did saw a docu about the canal and don't remember any Soviets involvement in that battle for the Suez. From memory, Egyptian president, Nassar [?] wanted to raise money to build a dam to help with the country's ag. industry. He couldn't get any funding so decided to retake the Canal from the French.

The French stole it fair and square when some French dude got close to the last Egyptian Shah, got him to sign a 100 year lease etc. Lease weren't up yet but the general have the nerve to nationalise it.

So the French and Israeli went in to take it but Eisenhower pick up his phone and they backed off. I mean, it's one of the world's vital trade route... no has been power is going to control that.

As to Israel. It weren't of much use to the US until after that 1967 war. Before that it was more of a liability than an asset. They weren't much of a military on the scale of things. They're Jewish in a Muslim neighbourhood where Uncle is trying to win hearts and mind. harder to do that when you openly support a ragtag bunch of bible bashers.

The '67 war gave US planners a rethink. Diversify. Not enough to pit Shiite against Sunni. Put the Jews in the mix and you got a more diversified portfolio of proxies.

 

[luutzu]

This.
Russia and Jina don't have a lot of opposition from within do they. Democracies like the U.S. have local media and political opponents undermining everything they do. I'm not a Trump fan boy but when it comes to pushing back against regimes like Putin's Russia, Jina and Rocket Man's NK I'm with Donald.

Every country have their internal oppositions, factions. Just that in China, Russia I'm not sure seeing how they also have elections and multi-party democracy... China they just disappear and have show trials of other factions every changing of the guards - every 5 or 10 years.

As to democracies having oppositions and a "free press" undermining grand strategies... not really.

I mean critics and oppositions are free to peacefully voiced their rants. But the main narratives from top down.

As Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky discussed in their Manufacturing of Consent... propaganda are more refined and more effective in free, open democracies than they are in totalitarian ones.

For one, if you're in China you know what you're reading is total BS from the state information bureau. If you're reading or watching Fox News, or CNN, or channel Nine... it's hard to believe that those privately owned media barons and executives would work together with the state to censor and push certain narratives.

 

[bellenuit]

A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.

 

[noirua]

A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.

https://www.wikihow.com/Successfully-Access-Facebook-in-China

Mobile Wikipedia is blocked though you should be able to access this one.

1. Find a VPN service that fits your needs. A VPN (Virtual Private Network) is an encrypted connection to a remote server that allow you to access the internet from behind restrictive firewalls. VPNs affect all of your internet traffic, which means Skype and other messaging services are not stuck behind the firewall either. VPNs are not free, but some offer monthly plans as opposed to yearly fee, which can be very useful for travelers.
   
2. 1. Check that the VPN you want works in China. Some of the major VPN servers have been blocked by the Chinese government and are no longer accessible. Check with the company that you are signing up with and read reviews of the service online.
      

 

[moXJO]

A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.

They found out the identity of the "poo jogger" and nsw won the first state of original. You're pretty much up to speed on Australian news now.

 

[moXJO]

If you ask the Afghani who's a more benevolent overlord - Russia or the US. They'll probably tell you it's about the same. Explosives kill everyone equally.

Ask those IndoChinese whether French Enlightenment or Japanese Asia for the Asians or American Freedom and Liberty... same same.

Whether American imperialism is Russian or Chinese etc. are better or worst depends on who you're asking. Their allies or their subject.

The only good thing about Western countries, and good while it still last, are those freedom and civil rights its plebs get to enjoy. The more money they have, the more they get to enjoy it, but still, it's something.

And those rights weren't given to the people; it didn't came from the ruling elite or from the kindness of Western imperialism. It was won from struggles and fights by generations of activist and social justice hippies.

I don't follow it, just merely listen here and there... but those rights are being eroded for quite a few decades now.

There's the gov't rights to invade all its citizens privacy - "looking at the envelopes"... just the envelope are all your emails and phone calls and eavesdropping from all smart phones and web cams etc. Nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide is the excuse. That and capturing of terrorists who obviously all plan and schedule their attacks online and through the web.

Anyway, off topic...

As to US imperialism is kinder to Nazi or Imperial Japan's...

Put it this way.

After WWII, the US systematically reinstate all Nazi collaborators in "free Europe". Suppress and overthrow "communists" who fought and organised against the Nazi.

It's the same across Asia. In S/Korea they kick out Korean nationalists and reinstate Japanese collaborators. S/Korea was pretty much a dictatorship until about the 1980s or so.


So if Japan and the Nazi had won WWII... the Middle East would pretty much be as it is today. Differences would be maybe no Jewish state. Maybe another clan instead of the Saudis ruled that Arabian peninsula. Maybe Russia would be a very large province in the Third Reich instead of an independent nuclear power.

Japan would rule Asia. The Chinese would start to enjoy Sushi... Australia would have plenty of White terrorists not liking its oil and resources being shipping north east for nothing.

The US will have to content itself with the Americas.



----------

I didn't know about the Soviets and Israel in Egypt.

Did saw a docu about the canal and don't remember any Soviets involvement in that battle for the Suez. From memory, Egyptian president, Nassar [?] wanted to raise money to build a dam to help with the country's ag. industry. He couldn't get any funding so decided to retake the Canal from the French.

The French stole it fair and square when some French dude got close to the last Egyptian Shah, got him to sign a 100 year lease etc. Lease weren't up yet but the general have the nerve to nationalise it.

So the French and Israeli went in to take it but Eisenhower pick up his phone and they backed off. I mean, it's one of the world's vital trade route... no has been power is going to control that.

As to Israel. It weren't of much use to the US until after that 1967 war. Before that it was more of a liability than an asset. They weren't much of a military on the scale of things. They're Jewish in a Muslim neighbourhood where Uncle is trying to win hearts and mind. harder to do that when you openly support a ragtag bunch of bible bashers.

The '67 war gave US planners a rethink. Diversify. Not enough to pit Shiite against Sunni. Put the Jews in the mix and you got a more diversified portfolio of proxies.

Russia was arming egypt in the 67 war. Russia was also getting involved. Egypt and Russia had a falling out though after the peace treaty. The US didn't like what russia was doing. Same in Afghanistan. US armed the locals against Russia.

I think Egypt has recently gone back to buying arms from the Soviets. I know they bought two warships from the French. And those ships were originally meant for Russia. Israel will probably start kicking up shite over that as I'm sure that affects the peace treaty.

Give me the US as world watchdog over china, or Russia- any day. All those bodies on display in Canberra as art were supposedly prisoners (potentially political ones). Russia still vaping dudes in other countries. The US gets up to a lot, but they are a lot more constrained.

 

[moXJO]

They found out the identity of the "poo jogger" and nsw won the first state of original. You're pretty much up to speed on Australian news now.

Origin

 

[DB008]

Trump does make some very interesting points.

Reciprocal trade. Aussie politicians should also take note. Our manufacturing industry is dead (as is USA). China has become the workhorse of the world.

 

[SirRumpole]

Trump does make some very interesting points.

Reciprocal trade. Aussie politicians should also take note. Our manufacturing industry is dead (as is USA). China has become the workhorse of the world.

Yes, Trump has merely voiced the frustrations of non European nations against the decades old trading cartel called the EU that has used quotas, tariffs and subsidies to lock out non EU members from exporting to EU markets.

They have been living in an ivory castle in Europe for a long time, and Trump did his "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more" party piece. Maybe better that than mealy mouthed concessions of the past.

 

[Macquack]

Russia still vaping dudes in other countries.

I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.

If the Russians were responsible, it looks like they did it. If they were not responsible for it, it still looks like they did it. Putin can't win either way.

Even the Germans are having second thoughts about the knee jerk reaction to expell all Russian diplomats.

"Germany Hasn't Received Evidence Against Russia in Skripal Case From UK" - Report
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201806081065234942-skripal-uk-germany/

 

[DB008]

I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.

I do. After Litvinenko was poisoned with Polonium 210 in London, Alexander Perepilichnyy poisoned, Berezovsky's murder made to look like suicide, you can't trust Putin.

Getting back to your quote - you can't just knock up a batch of Novichok-5 willy-nilly in your backyard shed....

Vil Mirzayanov "A Russian chemist who helped develop the Soviet-era nerve agent used to poison a former Russian double agent in southern England said only the Russian Government could have carried out the attack with such a deadly and advanced toxin."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...-uk-poison-attack-toxin-inventor-says/9546298

 

[moXJO]

I never bought that story about the Russians being responsible for the "poisoning" of former spy Segei Skripal and his daughter. There is no evidence whatsoever that Russia was responsible.

If the Russians were responsible, it looks like they did it. If they were not responsible for it, it still looks like they did it. Putin can't win either way.

Even the Germans are having second thoughts about the knee jerk reaction to expell all Russian diplomats.

"Germany Hasn't Received Evidence Against Russia in Skripal Case From UK" - Report
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201806081065234942-skripal-uk-germany/

Yeah I'm not sure on that one either. I was thinking of the political opponent that had the plutonium tea or whatever it was. And the list of other ones they knocked off.
You have to be careful though with news sources. The one you posted is considered one of the propaganda arms of the ruskies.

 

[Macquack]

Getting back to your quote - you can't just knock up a batch of Novichok-5 willy-nilly in your backyard shed....

Who said it was Novichok-5?

The alleged "nerve agent" must have been Chinese because it didn't bloody work. Skripal and his daughter have been released from hospital. Wouldn't a bullet have been much simpler.

 

[Tisme]

A bit off topic, but I am currently in Beijing. I have never felt so isolated communications wise in my life. Not allowed to use Facebook, Google, Messenger, Twitter or a few other western Comunications apps. My hotel has 90 channels but no BBC, CNN or any other Western media. Believe it or not, these forums are my only source of information, so long as the content is in the message and not linked to a site that is most likely blocked.

Shame we can't filter out the nonsense fads from USA ans Europe to keep a whisker of our own personality

 

[luutzu]

Russia was arming egypt in the 67 war. Russia was also getting involved. Egypt and Russia had a falling out though after the peace treaty. The US didn't like what russia was doing. Same in Afghanistan. US armed the locals against Russia.

I think Egypt has recently gone back to buying arms from the Soviets. I know they bought two warships from the French. And those ships were originally meant for Russia. Israel will probably start kicking up shite over that as I'm sure that affects the peace treaty.

Give me the US as world watchdog over china, or Russia- any day. All those bodies on display in Canberra as art were supposedly prisoners (potentially political ones). Russia still vaping dudes in other countries. The US gets up to a lot, but they are a lot more constrained.

Yea, make sense if the Soviets tried to "help" too. Would be good to control the gates into the M.E. all the way to Asia.

Whether the US, or another power, is preferable as top dog depends on whether you're its junior partner or at the receiving end.

No imperial power are ever constrained. They don't restrained it by choice anyway.

Maybe that's not completely true in modern democracies. The people are relatively free and can restrain its government to some degree. But not completely.

Can't blame the people though. They couldn't even restrain their government from policies that directly harm the plebs themselves, so it's quite an achievement to have made it known that the people will not put up with genocide, WMD. Hence the rise of that manufacturing of consent.

So yea, you're right that American imperialism are somewhat restrained. But restrained because they leadership fear the mob; not restrained out of kindness or civility and such. I mean, no imperial ever get to be an empire because it restrain its violence.

Look at what happened to the Natives in the Americas. When the plebs go long with the leadership, or are too busy to be informed what's being done in their name, everybody dies.

-------

As to those on the receiving end. It doesn't just mean the victims overseas.

Sanctions on Iraq in the 90s killed an estimated 100,000+ Iraqi children. That's a price "worth" paying for, according to its then Sec. of State. The wars in just Iraq and Afghan killed an estimated 2million a piece. And that stat is a few years old now.

Those are direct victims.

Indirect ones are the empire's own citizens.

The plebs do not benefit from war and empire building activities of its masters. They're the one whose sons go fight and die in it. Their taxes are being spent on war machines instead of school, healthcare and other useful goods and services. Blowbacks are often directed at them, the soft targets. etc. etc.

It's one of the reasons arms merchants and corporate titans love war so much. The expense are paid for by other people; the great bargains and reconstruction contracts; the war booties and jobs programmes... those are always handed to them with guaranteed profit margin.

Take the current example of US sanctions against Iran and Russia.

The Europeans will have to buy its energy from the US and Saudis. At 3x the costs if there's no sanctions.

And because the Russian threat is "imminent", even Sweden and Finland need to upped its military spending to prepare for the Russian invasion, have to open its country to more NATO bases.

And if war do break out, who will be first to pay the price? At least a few European cities will be wiped out within the first few minutes if the US and Russia presses the wrong button.