Where is/can Donald Trump take US (sic)?

[luutzu]

He was weak.
Lets start with Iran
First off he put Israel and Saudi Arabia offside to negotiate a deal that didn't cover missiles, was rubbery as all hell and lapsed in 10 years. Well done.
Then when US Navy men were captured, he sends Kerry over to put lips to ass and thank Iran for their release. Iran in the meanwhile still exports terror and their navy harasses anyone in the gulf.

What about his tough talk on Assad in Syria. Nothing done. Even when the supposed chemical attacks happened with Obama's "line in the sand" and nothing.

Or how about when China steals a US navy submarine drone out of international waters. Yep nothing.

He was viewed as weak by the Russians, the Chinese and Arabs. Talk about burning allies, Obama burnt Israel and Saudi Arabia. All trump is doing is rebuilding a lot of those relationships that are important. And throwing the rest to the wolves.

Israel and Saudi Arabia aren't allies, they're vassal states. Colony. Imperial Outpost.

France, Germany, the UK are "partners". So they're above the other two and are more serious in that they have a few really impressive industrial base. Israel and Saudi... they're somehow useful, but are interchangeable.

From memory, the US navy went inside Iranian waters yes? Under international law, a foreign military cannot cross into another sovereign state's economic zone without permission.

So it's not something you'd want to go to war over. Especially when they treat the soldiers well enough and release them soon after.

Iran is not a threat. Not to Israel. Definitely not to the US.

US Intelligence report have long admitted to that. That Iran's arms are primarily defensive, not offensive. i.e. they're powerful enough to deter and halt a potential enemy, but not enough that they can take on a modern military and win.

That's what a few decades of sanctions does to a country. It starves and kill the young, old and sick. Kept the tech and hardware dated. That's why now and then you see one of their planes fell out of the sky... kinda like Cuba's recently.

So Obama was right to agree to that Iranian deal. It's not just with the US, but with Europe, Russia and China too.

Trump managed to upset all those countries, a few of them friends... in favour of two states who've been itching for a war with Iran since ever.

Even Bush Jr. knew better to not go to Tehran.

But anyway, I heard that even if the deal had stayed in place, Iran would still have plenty of other sanction on it.

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China, Russia hacks... every country hacks and spy on another. Just because the other side don't advertise the fact that they've been hacked doesn't mean they weren't. I mean, even Merkle got tapped by the US, and Israeli.

 

[luutzu]

No one wants a trade war. It looks like US is just showing its "swinging dick" status. I'm hoping its just negotiation tactics. Ask Kim how much ass he has to kiss to keep the meeting with trump on track.

Unite them in fear, then punish the upstart is my guess.

Kim was the ones to have second thought on the summit. Remember how he got cold feet on hearing the US and S/Korea are still going to have their war game where the finale ends with his decapitation?

S/Korea tries to assure Kim, did a fair chunk of work to smooth things over. The US/Trump got back on board after Kim kinda, and here I'm guessing, fired his top three military advisors.

It would look really bad, no Nobel Peace Prize bad, if Kim made the initial overture for peace talks; release US prisoners; destroy his useless nuke testing facility to show he's serious about peace... just to have the US/SKorea scared him off with war games and Bolton's "Libya Model", followed by Trump's threat of a real Libya model if Kim don't want peace.

The Chinese president and Russian Foreign Minister had met with Kim. I guess they assure him that if the US decided to do an Iraq, a Libya or a Syria on him, they'll join the party too.

---------

Why would the US want Europe to fear them? They're already under its thumb.
N/Korea of course already fear anyone but their own people.

The US had "lost" China twice in the last 100 years. If they don't smarten up they'll lose a third and final time in coming decades.

The first "lost" was 1949 when Chiang Kai Sek lost to Mao and set up camp in Taiwan.

The second lost is the recent offshoring of US manufacturing to China, permitting US corporations to invest heavily into China and instead of then capturing the comrades, flipping them to the good side... the comrades capture American corporations and their political influence.

China is now, literally, building roads and bridges to link the world's resources and trade. Raw material flows to China, Chinese made goods flow out everywhere.

So if you can't contain an upstart... and can't nuke the bastard... and can't really convince its potential enemies to do something. Game's pretty much over.

 

[basilio]

You analysis of US politics and world politics is compelling Luutzu. ..

 

[moXJO]

.

From memory, the US navy went inside Iranian waters yes? Under international law, a foreign military cannot cross into another sovereign state's economic zone without permission.

So it's not something you'd want to go to war over. Especially when they treat the soldiers well enough and release them soon after.

Iran is not a threat. Not to Israel. Definitely not to the US.

• Iran's navy made a point of harassing and humiliating the US Navy in 2016 after then-President Barack Obama had sealed the Iran deal, but under President Donald Trump, they have stopped.
• The US Navy openly acknowledges the shift in tactics from Iran, which an expert told Business Insider was based on Trump's unpredictability and credibility with regard to military strikes.
• But Iran has kept up its anti-US regional activity and encountered little resistance after toning down the more visible naval encounters.

Iran's navy made a point of harassing and humiliating the US Navy in 2016 after then-President Barack Obama had sealed the Iran deal, but since August 2017, the US Navy says things have changed.

"It seems like they've absolutely made a conscious decision to give us more space," Navy Cmdr. William Urban recently said. "That is definitely a change in their behavior."

Iran would charge US Navy ships with fast attack craft, buzz fighter jets with drones, and even shine lasers at helicopters operating at sea during Obama's presidency.

But the worst, most embarrassing incident occurred in January 2016, when Iran's navy seized two US Navy rivernine boats and the 10 sailors on board after the ship wandered into Iranian waters due to mechanical issues. They broadcast footage of the sailors, crying, in detention, on television across the country. Iran later announced plans to build a monument commemorating the event.

Later that year Iranian ships conducted "unsafe and unprofessional," and often taunting maneuvers around US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf five times in about a month.

Then trump

In September of that same year, Trump addressed Iran while on the campaign trail. "When they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn't be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water," Trump said.

Shortly after Trump's election, the incidents noticeably stopped, despite Trump's open hostility towards Iran, compared to Obama's attempts to appease them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ated-us-navy-obama-stopped-under-trump-2018-3

Fact is Obama was viewed as weak. Go to Russia, or the middle east and they all thought he was nutless. He was intelligent and a great speaker. But no stones.

Iran is a power threat in the middle east. They also fund terrorist outfits.

If you think Israel or Saudis have no power then you ain't looking properly

 

[moXJO]

You analysis of US politics and world politics is compelling Luutzu. ..

Yeah and wrong with a lot of it.

 

[moXJO]

So if you can't contain an upstart... and can't nuke the bastard... and can't really convince its potential enemies to do something. Game's pretty much over.

Ahhh nooo.
South Korea, Australia, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia are all part of the US design to contain China. Pretty much choking them off and slowing their naval ambitions.

India is a power on the rise as well and they ain't bum buddies with china. If it weren't for those mountains, there would be a stack load of conflict.

US has way more soft power leverage with the world then China will ever have. China may move ahead in some areas but I don't see them taking the world mantle.

 

[moXJO]

Kim was the ones to have second thought on the summit. Remember how he got cold feet on hearing the US and S/Korea are still going to have their war game where the finale ends with his decapitation?

S/Korea tries to assure Kim, did a fair chunk of work to smooth things over. The US/Trump got back on board after Kim kinda, and here I'm guessing, fired his top three military advisors.

Kim didn't walk away.
The NK population has acess to the Internet, illegally and on pain of death- thank you technology. No hiding the rest of the world for kimmy boy. If he doesn't get the sanctions lifted he is literally toast. He needs the sanctions lifted. Maybe he will try to go back to his old ways, but I think technology has come too far.

Trump has nothing to lose by walking away. He was dealing with someone that routinely antagonized the world.
Trump has also has been building leverage on China. And hey those sanctions could get a whole lot easier if you tell your pet to do back flips at the summit.

Whats his catchphrase MAGA.
I think that sums up his approach on the world stage. Pants down- swinging dick.
After throwing missiles into Syria and wiping out a hundred or so Russian mercs in another attack, all the little shitbowls are thinking twice.

 

[luutzu]

Kim didn't walk away.
The NK population has acess to the Internet, illegally and on pain of death- thank you technology. No hiding the rest of the world for kimmy boy. If he doesn't get the sanctions lifted he is literally toast. He needs the sanctions lifted. Maybe he will try to go back to his old ways, but I think technology has come too far.

Trump has nothing to lose by walking away. He was dealing with someone that routinely antagonized the world.
Trump has also has been building leverage on China. And hey those sanctions could get a whole lot easier if you tell your pet to do back flips at the summit.

Whats his catchphrase MAGA.
I think that sums up his approach on the world stage. Pants down- swinging dick.
After throwing missiles into Syria and wiping out a hundred or so Russian mercs in another attack, all the little shitbowls are thinking twice.

You realise that it has never been the North Korean who wanted sanctions on them right?

The Kim Dynasty, like all other dictators, want the freedom to both oppress their people and access to new toys and worldly extravagances too. Kinda like the Saudis... lopping heads off at home, the Crown Prince get to meet with cool people around the world. Like Google founders, Bloomberg, former US presidents, The Queen!

Not sure if it's the same missiles, but the UN, that bloody UN and their Human Rights stuff... just release a report saying US attack on some Syrian city (Raqqa?) is a war crime. Not happy, other nations.

Trump has a lot to lose if he walked away. That Nobel Peace Prize for one. Two, the Koreas wanted peace and be united... and both its presidents are making public gestures wanting peace. So they play the public image games a lot better than Trump. And we can't have that.

But the summit wouldn't mount to much I reckon. You can't have wars only with the Arabs... you need another threat from another race to even things out. And Canada being a national security threat wouldn't do it.

 

[luutzu]

Ahhh nooo.
South Korea, Australia, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia are all part of the US design to contain China. Pretty much choking them off and slowing their naval ambitions.

India is a power on the rise as well and they ain't bum buddies with china. If it weren't for those mountains, there would be a stack load of conflict.

US has way more soft power leverage with the world then China will ever have. China may move ahead in some areas but I don't see them taking the world mantle.

Have you seen pictures of what the Chinese put on those man-made, permanently anchored floating carriers of theirs lately?

There's an elevation shot of one of the major island with its buildings an I swear it looks like the city is sinking. So I reckon the A Team in charge of containing China on that front is falling short.

No one but the US is that angry at China's rise and military build-up. I mean, sure they don't like it... what with stealing their seas and muscling in on their trades.

But as we and our ACCC knows, you'd rather have two monopolies than one. They'll both screw you, just less than they would if there's only one of them around.

US's soft power is also waning. You need lots of money for that kind of play. And seeing how the hard power are on show all over the place, seems the current batch of US planners don't much care for the softer kind... I mean, "giving" money away... why'd you do that when you can bomb them into submission.

That and the US just have way too much overheads and capital expenses to compete with China on that softpower game. For one, the US spend some $100B a year just to keep the lights on at its 1000+ military bases around the world.

China could spend half that and buy themselves quite a few friends. Then on their way to global hegemony, they're only showing their aggression in a couple of places (to start off) while simply building roads and rails, creating jobs and giving money away in other parts of the world.

That's called winning friends from afar while you screw the weaker ones nearby, taking their stuff and pushing your defensive perimeter out and away from the capital.

 

[luutzu]

Then trump


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ated-us-navy-obama-stopped-under-trump-2018-3

Fact is Obama was viewed as weak. Go to Russia, or the middle east and they all thought he was nutless. He was intelligent and a great speaker. But no stones.

Iran is a power threat in the middle east. They also fund terrorist outfits.

If you think Israel or Saudis have no power then you ain't looking properly

Israel and Saudis have power and can fight a war proper if it's against unarmed women, rock slinging kids... basically anyone's that unarmed are pretty much of no match for them.

Norman Finkelstein was saying how during the NATO/Russian fight in Georgia some years back... Israel was bidding for contracts to fight the Russian backed terrorist, I guess you called them.

Their sales pitch was that they've had plenty of experience with terrorists and have been tired of winning all these decades. So they won the job... and soon have their azzes handed to them by the Russians.

Who's prepared for a war where the other side can shoot back properly man.

Iran is the only, maybe except Turkey who seem to be wanting a bit more independence to deal with other powers, take a few parts back from Iraq and Syria, re-uniting them with a new Ottoman empire I'm guessing...

Anyway, Iran is independent in a region of the world where no state should be. You just cannot have all that oil and be free to decide what to do with it on your own dude. What if you waste it and that waste ruin the environment.

So Trump says... their tiny boats circles around our big beautiful destroyers.

In the Persian Gulf or Gulf of Mexico? They were in their Iranian waters and can see a foreign destroyer?

That shouldn't make them a bit nervous I guess. It's not like they're wedged between two fallen states, one of them on the same Axis of Evil list.

 

[basilio]

Yeah and wrong with a lot of it.

I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo. So really xxxx off.

But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit. It doesn't look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
Happy now ?

And if you chose to consider with thought much of what Luutzu says you might learn something.

 

[wayneL]

I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo. So really xxxx off.

But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit. It doesn't look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
Happy now ?

And if you chose to consider with thought much of what Luutzu says you might learn something.

Hey, bas. It's an open forum mate, if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else, try the private message function.

 

[IFocus]

Hey, bas. It's an open forum mate, if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else, try the private message function.

From a totally unbiased position I think Mo deserved it

 

[basilio]

Hey, bas. It's an open forum mate, if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else, try the private message function.

So Wayne lets tease this out. If MoxJo decides to "trash" my favourable comments about Luutzu analysis of international affairs that's fine.

But when I respond in kind and point out how limited and biased Moxjo's responses are I appear to have gone too far. Apparently I should have kept my favourable comments in private rather than putting them out there.
Double standards here ? Why am I totally unsurprised..

Much of what Luu says, particularly about the Obama administration, I find challenging and painful. If one was brutal you could say that President Obama was the best conservative President a Republican Party could hope for. But Luus analysis is well based and the difference between the public face of the President and the policy actions he undertook are stark. It has certainly made me review my ideas.

But overall I am so depresssed with the general shallowness, nastiness and lack of grace with political/social discussions on ASF being able to recognise the gold amongst the dross is just a gesture of good faith.

 

[moXJO]

I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo. So really xxxx off.

But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit. It doesn't look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
Happy now ?

And if you chose to consider with thought much of what Luutzu says you might learn something.

I actually backed up my statements. Anything else? Did I touch a raw nerve on a leftie hero?

Obama domestically tried to go the right way but was hamstrung. Foreign policy was a failure.

 

[Tisme]

Hey, bas. It's an open forum mate, if you want to congratulate Grasshopper for his sophistry without comment from anyone else, try the private message function.

lol

 

[moXJO]

Have you seen pictures of what the Chinese put on those man-made, permanently anchored floating carriers of theirs lately?

There's an elevation shot of one of the major island with its buildings an I swear it looks like the city is sinking. So I reckon the A Team in charge of containing China on that front is falling short.

No one but the US is that angry at China's rise and military build-up. I mean, sure they don't like it... what with stealing their seas and muscling in on their trades.

But as we and our ACCC knows, you'd rather have two monopolies than one. They'll both screw you, just less than they would if there's only one of them around.

US's soft power is also waning. You need lots of money for that kind of play. And seeing how the hard power are on show all over the place, seems the current batch of US planners don't much care for the softer kind... I mean, "giving" money away... why'd you do that when you can bomb them into submission.

That and the US just have way too much overheads and capital expenses to compete with China on that softpower game. For one, the US spend some $100B a year just to keep the lights on at its 1000+ military bases around the world.

China could spend half that and buy themselves quite a few friends. Then on their way to global hegemony, they're only showing their aggression in a couple of places (to start off) while simply building roads and rails, creating jobs and giving money away in other parts of the world.

That's called winning friends from afar while you screw the weaker ones nearby, taking their stuff and pushing your defensive perimeter out and away from the capital.

China looks boxed into me. Even Vietnam was pissed that china is arming the islands.

Wasn't the US navy visiting Vietnam recently as well. China isn't gaining much ground on soft power. Its trying by giving out huge loans for infrastructure, from micro nations to majors. It's not working to the degree that they thought.

 

[moXJO]

From a totally unbiased position I think Mo deserved it

Duddddeee....... you use to be coool.

Lutz is a big boy and he knows I'm an ass. No matter how heated everyone perceives the conversation to get, I can think his opinion is wrong and say its wrong. He can respectively do the same.
I'm going to learn some from him and he from me. It's not pick factional sides and only agree with our team.
Its also not personal. I like lutz and the way he thinks.

 

[moXJO]

I wasn't speaking to you Moxjo. So really xxxx off.

But now we are on the topic frankly most of your "analysis" of world events is full of xhit. It doesn't look at anything like a bigger picture. It is overwhelmingly biased.
Happy now ?

.

Which comments specifically are wrong?
The argument was that Obama was viewed as weak. Then it morphed into a lot of other things. So point them out rather than just xxxx off comments.

 

[moXJO]

Israel and Saudis have power and can fight a war proper if it's against unarmed women, rock slinging kids... basically anyone's that unarmed are pretty much of no match for them.

Norman Finkelstein was saying how during the NATO/Russian fight in Georgia some years back... Israel was bidding for contracts to fight the Russian backed terrorist, I guess you called them.

Their sales pitch was that they've had plenty of experience with terrorists and have been tired of winning all these decades. So they won the job... and soon have their azzes handed to them by the Russians.

Who's prepared for a war where the other side can shoot back properly man.

Iran is the only, maybe except Turkey who seem to be wanting a bit more independence to deal with other powers, take a few parts back from Iraq and Syria, re-uniting them with a new Ottoman empire I'm guessing...

Anyway, Iran is independent in a region of the world where no state should be. You just cannot have all that oil and be free to decide what to do with it on your own dude. What if you waste it and that waste ruin the environment.

So Trump says... their tiny boats circles around our big beautiful destroyers.

In the Persian Gulf or Gulf of Mexico? They were in their Iranian waters and can see a foreign destroyer?

That shouldn't make them a bit nervous I guess. It's not like they're wedged between two fallen states, one of them on the same Axis of Evil list.

Israel is ranked 16 out of 136 armed countries. Stat breakdown is here. Their army isn't ragtag. They have some of the best trained soldiers in the world, airforce and navy.