Has trading worked out for you?

[ThingyMajiggy]

Hey all,

I was just pondering today and wondering how many of you on here are actually succeeding at this, whatever it may be, whether its day-trading, swing trading, position trading or investing and it can be in anything, stocks/fx/futures/options/CFDs?

So I thought why not ask? So who here, let's say in the last 1-5 years(or longer if you're an investor) has successfully turned a profit consistently, so if you're day trading/investing/whatever(in anything, and not just a once off yes I bought this stock once and got lucky and then haven't traded since) you've done well and its worth while profit-wise, or you've now got to the point where you trade for a living. After all we are all here to turn a profit but it seems we are all still trying to figure it out, plenty of wondering and questions going on, so why not actually see who is doing well from this and not just breaking even or getting by?

I would love to know the statistics on the users here, how many are actually making decent coin from this endeavour or whether they wished they had taken some other path(starting their own business or some other method of trying to turn a profit) but they are too far down the road to consider "turning back" so to speak?

So....are/have you made a decent profit in the last 1/5/10 years on a regular basis where trading in some form or another has improved your life or enabled you to do things you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise(travel, have a good life, buy this or that, help someone, whatever)?

 

[tech/a]

I think I've answered this in a few threads.

But

Trading ---Yes but only when in a bull market (Stocks and did exceptionally
in my book 2002-2007 ) or when I can get on a trend regularly
I have found the DAX best for this and provides enough when I trade it to be worth the effort.
So my brains are coupled to bullish conditions. So to I might add are the successes of many.

Business
Long hard slog but if you can become an expert people will beat a path to your door.
Once you get past $1.5mill T/O and about 6 staff you can start making more than a wage.
Your aim should be that your not self employed---but making far more than a decent wage.
This is a great opportunity to compound success. Plus you have the benefit of working for as
long as you want and as often as you want.

Property
Where I made most. Started in 95 and still develop to this day. Right place right time.
Sure it was luck but I also saw in 95 that buying a 4 bedroomed house for $95K with no cash down and
immediate positive gearing when I rented it out---that this was definitely---rinse and repeat.
Development stopped and buy and hold using equity was the theme.
Started selling off in 2003 and only hold 3 freehold now including my Business premises.
Looking for property for development now.

Id suggest over time you get to know all 3.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

I think I've answered this in a few threads.

But

Trading ---Yes but only when in a bull market (Stocks and did exceptionally
in my book 2002-2007 ) or when I can get on a trend regularly
I have found the DAX best for this and provides enough when I trade it to be worth the effort.
So my brains are coupled to bullish conditions. So to I might add are the successes of many.

Business
Long hard slog but if you can become an expert people will beat a path to your door.
Once you get past $1.5mill T/O and about 6 staff you can start making more than a wage.
Your aim should be that your not self employed---but making far more than a decent wage.
This is a great opportunity to compound success. Plus you have the benefit of working for as
long as you want and as often as you want.

Property
Where I made most. Started in 95 and still develop to this day. Right place right time.
Sure it was luck but I also saw in 95 that buying a 4 bedroomed house for $95K with no cash down and
immediate positive gearing when I rented it out---that this was definitely---rinse and repeat.
Development stopped and buy and hold using equity was the theme.
Started selling off in 2003 and only hold 3 freehold now including my Business premises.
Looking for property for development now.

Id suggest over time you get to know all 3.

Exactly the reply I was after, great stuff tech and thanks! Property would be great, but I'm only 26 and have no idea where to start plus even from my little knowledge of it, it seems it's not going great guns lately, seems like not a good time to buy property? Also I dunno if it's just me but it seems nearly impossible for young people to buy their own house/property investment, the cost is just insane, which is a shame because I know quite a few older folk and they have all done well from real estate.

Trading is the same for me, I have been working on it for a long time now, trying to be consistent etc. Trying to save up some funds and get going on my live account, doing well on sim(+60K last month trading DAX using up to 4 lots) but just can't seems like such an uphill battle to get ahead in fund my live account, something always comes up that dips into the savings I guess you all know the feeling!

Having my own business is also something I've greatly admired and wished I could do one day as well, the three together seem like a really great setup, own business, trading and then property later on. But there's also the task of thinking up a business in some area, the idea, the skills, the business knowledge.

Hard to know what to focus on at times, for me anyway. Obviously I would dearly love to trade futures full time and that's what I'm working towards, but I ask these questions because "success" in this arena seems scarce, so it's nice to hear a few success stories every now and then with all this random market theory, algo's, every trader blows up eventually given a long enough period etc. etc.

Being young and loving all three of these things, it's hard what to focus on, it's like if I nail trading then that will enable the other two and great freedom etc(or even investing, all of it sparks my interests). Just trying to make wise decisions so I don't get to the grey nomad stage and think bugger, should've done X, Y or Z instead because this was just an endless money pit, whether that be trading, business or property.

So it's good to hear how you guys get on and if you would have done things differently, or how you would go about it starting fresh these days as a mid 20's person, would you even take up trading or would you pursue some other avenue.

 

[banco]

I've had some success (profitable but nothing to brag about) with opening 1.5 hour of US grains futures. I've been a net loser on the ASX.

 

[kushi212]

Thanks for bringing this up.
Being a newbie as well, I keep wondering about this a lot.
Many people around me say that stock market is no different than Casino.
I do know that is not true. A lot of effort, discipline and patience is required to win this game.
I am trying to learn TA / Amibroker AFL currently.

Would love to see more answers here!!

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, I have done pretty well trading the ASX over the last several years, excluding a rough patch over the GFC period. Developed a new system after the GFC and am now getting better results than ever. Have averaged around 62% pa over the last 3 years (using up to approx. 2x leverage). Last financial year made 88%. I made very close to double the income from my day job last financial year, so hopefully I may be able to give up my day job in the not too distant future.

 

[tech/a]

Sam

All three are simply about numbers.

Less in more out. It's your job to be creative and to crunch those numbers
Then to put your plan in play and bank the profits from your numbers.

Best of all I'm a dumb ass----- repeated year 11 no tertiary education.
If I can do it ANYONE can.

More when we catch up Wednesday.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

Yes, I have done pretty well trading the ASX over the last several years, excluding a rough patch over the GFC period. Developed a new system after the GFC and am now getting better results than ever. Have averaged around 62% pa over the last 3 years (using up to approx. 2x leverage). Last financial year made 88%. I made very close to double the income from my day job last financial year, so hopefully I may be able to give up my day job in the not too distant future.

Great stuff AlterEgo, was this actively trading shares or more of a research then sticking with one good one, more investing style? Or something else? Nice results

Sam

All three are simply about numbers.

Less in more out. It's your job to be creative and to crunch those numbers
Then to put your plan in play and bank the profits from your numbers.

Best of all I'm a dumb ass----- repeated year 11 no tertiary education.
If I can do it ANYONE can.

More when we catch up Wednesday.

Good John, gives me hope being a fellow dumb ass myself

Looking forward to it, because I'm not sure what you mean by the numbers thing, less in more out. At the moment I could do with plenty more numbers coming in

 

[Trembling Hand]

Sam wrong question I reckon. Its about what opportunity and path you can see.

For 10 years after I left school I was in the food industry. I started as a dishwasher/onion cutter/gopher and with a bit of luck and a lot of promises and enthusiasm I was part owner in the same place a few months later (it was a tiny broke sh!thole in the country). From there I spent 2 and a bit years working 7 days a week 14 hours every day for close to no money. Really it was more like slavery than a business owner on his way to great wealth. But it didn't matter. I could see a path to something much bigger in the future and as naive as I was and as tired as I was every morning at 4 am when the alarm went off I got up at hit the day with all I had because the opportunity I could see fills you with energy.

After that 2 and a bit years I sold the place and pretty much the next day moved to the big smoke and started to set up something much bigger, again with not much more than promises and enthusiasm. There was some massive obstacles to get started and then keep going but again it was the opportunities I could see that enabled me to keep going through the crap and make it work somehow. It worked after another few years I had a business that was shipping food all over the country and employed more than 30 staff. As it turned out the opportunities were greater than what I could see at the start. Probably too big for me. It turned out that I wasn't invincible and it blew up after 4 years and left me in a deep hole. After a bit of down time and rest I could again see what was my way out so started again. Long story short after a few years and a lot of build it - flip it I was back well above water but something funny happened.

As I went from day to day talking to customers and suppliers as I had for the previous 8-10 years I realised I could no longer see expanding opportunity. I was sitting in my office thinking where is this going to go? I realised nowhere! I was fighting just to stay above water. The landscape and my view of it had changed - dramatically!! That day I decided to get out completely.

That lead me to trading. And it was the same thing. I could see that there were great, no massive opportunities. The more I look the greater they seemed. That has kept me going for the last 10 years as a trader, stuck in his own little room in his house day in day out fighting the drawdowns and bad days/weeks/months. That sh!tty sick feeling as you put on the next trade that you don't want to but know you have to. Kept me fighting the bad moods at the end of the day after being shown by the market how dumb ar$e I am.... again. Fighting the nervousness of having a good month then stepping up size knowing that a bad week could give that good month straight back. The struggle of having to change markets and styles as movement and opportunity that matches slip away. The 10 years of "embracing uncertainty" has asked for a big price to be paid. But each day the screens get turned on with enthusiasm because I can just see a path that has great opportunity...... still!

The day I don't see it I know will be the day I walk away and get a "real job" and I know I won't look back because there is too much out there to waste time on something that doesn't reward you in some way.

So on to that bit about reward. I reckon most things that people excel at should start out as a hobby. Move to a investigation into the possibilities then if positive a full on assault into a quest for mastery. Once you start the last stage there is no question about "how is that working for others". It has already sucked you in and has hold of you. You can already see the path.

There is nothing wrong with having trading as a hobby for a long long time while you figure out your path. After all I think 99% of the people here are in that category. It is a problem though if its an excuse for not going out in the real world and searching for other more rewarding opportunities.

At some point though the "having another go at it" becomes more a stop loss move just so it doesn't get hit rather than a show of determination or a fight against bad luck.

You cannot walk down a path you cannot see.

 

[tech/a]

Great look back T/H.

I see self reflection--never doubt.
I see recognition and belief.

I see discovery of the Pareto principal and its
application.

I see enthusiasm and commitment.

I see you have adopted much which you haven't mentioned here
knowingly or un knowingly.

Building a broad foundation.
Adaptability
Simplicity
Power of compounding and leverage.
Self appraisal
Ability to admit your on a path that could be better and
changing it.

Doubt you have a degree either?

One thing I learn very early on was.

My client was worth more on the open market than their work was.
( I had a lawn round ) A $10 a week client was worth $150 if I sold them
So was getting clients more profitable than cutting them----YOU BET.

I learnt I don't need to be able to operate machinery to own it
I learnt I don't have to be an Engineer to be involved in Civil Engineering
I just employ them.
I learnt that that engineer costs me $50/ hr. and I make the same on charge out. ($100-150/Hrs)
An excavator costs me $4000 a month but is hired out at $25000 a month (The operator gets $5600 a month).
So again what's more important or of more value the work we get or the vehicles ( Encompassing people/tools of trade/offices et al) to do it?

Oh I leant to operate excavators.
AND
Saved bankruptcy in 87---cost house/properties/marriage/Self esteem.
Again in 92---no genius here!

Great story T/H in a few years I want to read the other chapters!

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

Sam wrong question I reckon. Its about what opportunity and path you can see.

For 10 years after I left school I was in the food industry. I started as a dishwasher/onion cutter/gopher and with a bit of luck and a lot of promises and enthusiasm I was part owner in the same place a few months later (it was a tiny broke sh!thole in the country). From there I spent 2 and a bit years working 7 days a week 14 hours every day for close to no money. Really it was more like slavery than a business owner on his way to great wealth. But it didn't matter. I could see a path to something much bigger in the future and as naive as I was and as tired as I was every morning at 4 am when the alarm went off I got up at hit the day with all I had because the opportunity I could see fills you with energy.

After that 2 and a bit years I sold the place and pretty much the next day moved to the big smoke and started to set up something much bigger, again with not much more than promises and enthusiasm. There was some massive obstacles to get started and then keep going but again it was the opportunities I could see that enabled me to keep going through the crap and make it work somehow. It worked after another few years I had a business that was shipping food all over the country and employed more than 30 staff. As it turned out the opportunities were greater than what I could see at the start. Probably too big for me. It turned out that I wasn't invincible and it blew up after 4 years and left me in a deep hole. After a bit of down time and rest I could again see what was my way out so started again. Long story short after a few years and a lot of build it - flip it I was back well above water but something funny happened.

As I went from day to day talking to customers and suppliers as I had for the previous 8-10 years I realised I could no longer see expanding opportunity. I was sitting in my office thinking where is this going to go? I realised nowhere! I was fighting just to stay above water. The landscape and my view of it had changed - dramatically!! That day I decided to get out completely.

That lead me to trading. And it was the same thing. I could see that there were great, no massive opportunities. The more I look the greater they seemed. That has kept me going for the last 10 years as a trader, stuck in his own little room in his house day in day out fighting the drawdowns and bad days/weeks/months. That sh!tty sick feeling as you put on the next trade that you don't want to but know you have to. Kept me fighting the bad moods at the end of the day after being shown by the market how dumb ar$e I am.... again. Fighting the nervousness of having a good month then stepping up size knowing that a bad week could give that good month straight back. The struggle of having to change markets and styles as movement and opportunity that matches slip away. The 10 years of "embracing uncertainty" has asked for a big price to be paid. But each day the screens get turned on with enthusiasm because I can just see a path that has great opportunity...... still!

The day I don't see it I know will be the day I walk away and get a "real job" and I know I won't look back because there is too much out there to waste time on something that doesn't reward you in some way.

So on to that bit about reward. I reckon most things that people excel at should start out as a hobby. Move to a investigation into the possibilities then if positive a full on assault into a quest for mastery. Once you start the last stage there is no question about "how is that working for others". It has already sucked you in and has hold of you. You can already see the path.

There is nothing wrong with having trading as a hobby for a long long time while you figure out your path. After all I think 99% of the people here are in that category. It is a problem though if its an excuse for not going out in the real world and searching for other more rewarding opportunities.

At some point though the "having another go at it" becomes more a stop loss move just so it doesn't get hit rather than a show of determination or a fight against bad luck.

You cannot walk down a path you cannot see.

Amazing post TH and good point.

Was thinking as I was reading your post though, because of the potential opportunities and lifestyle that trading can offer, couldn't anyone see themselves going down that path?(who couldn't imagine themselves doing trading profitably as their "job"? I mean you could potentially trade from a balcony in Santorini overlooking the ocean, who wouldn't want that or couldn't see themselves doing that after discovering/investigating trading and realising there are people out there who are successful at this?)

Ever since I have known about trading, since pre-GFC I have wanted to do it, the limitless potential and the lifestyle is super appealing.....IF....you can perfect it, I have grown up on computers and always said to myself when I was a teenager that I'd love to make a living from the computer, something online, or whatever, then I discovered trading and thought you beaut and away it went...

It's hard to see what my path is, I have imagined myself travelling the world and waking up in some nice place and getting up early and checking on the markets and my positions, all fantasy in my head of what could be you know as we all do I guess, but it's hard to know sometimes. I guess you could say I have maybe better skills/talents in other areas that are nothing to do with trading but aren't necessarily things that I can see myself making a quid from or having as a career, whether that be true of false I don't know, which brings me onto another thing, you hear/read all the time about find what you love to do and focus on that, become an expert and the career/money will come. Did you do all those things because you loved it and wanted to or did you see the opportunity and potential in them and that's what gave you the driving force to pursue it?

It almost MAKES it so you like it if the reward is great enough at the end, my grandfather used to always be one to believe in doing what no one else wanted to do, because people will be willing to pay for it which will then MAKE you like it, if that makes sense. You pursue something because of the potential it has, you know even cleaning toilets would be worth it if you were on huge money because no one else was doing it?

Great to read some of your story though, always wondered how things went for you.

As I said above I have imagined myself as a trader many a time, and there are other times when I get down in the dumps about it all and wonder if it's really at all possible and start pursuing other areas in my life but it always seems to come back to trading, or at least having my own business of some kind.

I often think to myself that it's also a toss up of bang for buck as far as time invested, if I was to pursue something else, or look into starting my own business in some area, it would be another 5-10 years before I was what you could call an "expert" in that area I guess and really start getting ahead(assuming I did things right), so I wonder then too if I put another 5-10 years and focus on being a great successful trader/investor the rewards for doing trading/investing surely would be far greater because of the potential it has. The profits one can make from this outweighs most things(which is why it's hard to pursue something else and why it always comes back to "I really should nail trading, I owe it to myself with the effort from the time I've already put in and it trumps everything else".

Your post is definitely making me think, thanks again mate I'll shut up now

 

[tech/a]

There is a lot going for a business of trading.

No staff
Low over head.
No Clients
Constant market.
Potential to profit in good and bad times.

The profits one can make from this outweighs most things(which is why it's hard to pursue something else and why it always comes back to "I really should nail trading, I owe it to myself with the effort from the time I've already put in and it trumps everything else".

All business including trading is a two edged sword.
While you can make all you could possibly dream of
you can also lose it!

My advice.
Just pick one instrument and be very very good at it.
Don't try to earn your years salary in the first month or year.
You know what you want to do now you have to DO IT!

Plan your trading business.

 

[Trembling Hand]

There is a lot going for a business of trading.

There is a lot going for winning Wimbledon too but at some point you have to be honest with yourself and say my progress is just not up to scratch to achieve what I hoped for. Onto the next thing (job/hobby/or stuff it I like it but I'm just a spectator).

There is a newish concept in sports that is pushing the 10,000 hours to be an expert out the window. Its all about training response. How much does one individual respond in fitness (strenght, Vo2Max, speed etc) to a certain training load. Basically there are fast , average and slow responders. Not guys that train harder but guys that get fitter faster off the same load. Below is a chart of 15 people and the gain in watts per kg of body weight when cycling from the same training load.



As you can see over 100 hrs of training (4-6 weeks) some people respond more than twice as well as others and 50% better than the average. Imagine the difference after 5 years!

 

[tech/a]

There is a lot going for winning Wimbledon too but at some point you have to be honest with yourself and say my progress is just not up to scratch to achieve what I hoped for. Onto the next thing (job/hobby/or stuff it I like it but I'm just a spectator).

There is a newish concept in sports that is pushing the 10,000 hours to be an expert out the window. Its all about training response. How much does one individual respond in fitness (strenght, Vo2Max, speed etc) to a certain training load. Basically there are fast , average and slow responders. Not guys that train harder but guys that get fitter faster off the same load. Below is a chart of 15 people and the gain in watts per kg of body weight when cycling from the same training load.

View attachment 63552

As you can see over 100 hrs of training (4-6 weeks) some people respond more than twice as well as others and 50% better than the average. Imagine the difference after 5 years!

Yes I saw something on TV about that.
Leading edge.
From what I remember you could find out which group you were in.
In future I'm sure you'll be able to do the same for business acumen.
Risk Tolerance
Problem solving
Health
Partner selection
Plus a plethora of things we cant imagine.

But for now
If you never give it a go you'll never know.
Personally I don't want to look back and wonder---what if?

 

[Pager]

I’ve had some outstanding years trading, but also had some dogs, it’s a bit like that for many I think, and consistency and trading don’t really go hand in hand, so giving up the day job dream should stay as just that as the majority of us wont make it, mind you trading doesn’t have to take all day, im done in 5 mins each day and with smart phones and trading platforms I can set my orders and get on with other things, email alerts will tell me when I need to be checking orders have filled, stops are active etc

Tried Futures, stocks, commodities, forex, Options, CFD,s, you name it I have tried to trade it, the only one I have done well is Futures, simple, easy to understand and exchange traded.

These days I only trade Index futures, which is what I first started trading around 2000, should never have strayed elsewhere in hindsight, it’s the hand that fits the glove and im comfortable and relaxed about trading these instruments even though they are highly leveraged.

So I suppose eventually it worked out but it was a hell of a ride………

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

I’ve had some outstanding years trading, but also had some dogs, it’s a bit like that for many I think, and consistency and trading don’t really go hand in hand, so giving up the day job dream should stay as just that as the majority of us wont make it, mind you trading doesn’t have to take all day, im done in 5 mins each day and with smart phones and trading platforms I can set my orders and get on with other things, email alerts will tell me when I need to be checking orders have filled, stops are active etc

Tried Futures, stocks, commodities, forex, Options, CFD,s, you name it I have tried to trade it, the only one I have done well is Futures, simple, easy to understand and exchange traded.

These days I only trade Index futures, which is what I first started trading around 2000, should never have strayed elsewhere in hindsight, it’s the hand that fits the glove and im comfortable and relaxed about trading these instruments even though they are highly leveraged.

So I suppose eventually it worked out but it was a hell of a ride………

Good stuff Pager, thanks for sharing

What index do you trade and what style if you don't mind me asking? Good to hear about the different ways people go about it too

 

[Pager]

Good stuff Pager, thanks for sharing

What index do you trade and what style if you don't mind me asking? Good to hear about the different ways people go about it too

Purely mechanical and all positions (if still open) are closed when the exchange closes, so nothing held overnight, I trade 5 Index markets, Australia, 2 in Asia, 1 in Europe and the USA.

Most of the time I stumble along up a bit down a bit but every so often, hit a huge trade which makes up for all the others, usually comes when least expected, can be long waits between drinks though.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

Purely mechanical and all positions (if still open) are closed when the exchange closes, so nothing held overnight, I trade 5 Index markets, Australia, 2 in Asia, 1 in Europe and the USA.

Most of the time I stumble along up a bit down a bit but every so often, hit a huge trade which makes up for all the others, usually comes when least expected, can be long waits between drinks though.

Excellent by mechanical you mean automated? What platform/system is that through? Sounds like you pretty much have the world covered!

Cheers for clarifying

 

[Pager]

Excellent by mechanical you mean automated? What platform/system is that through? Sounds like you pretty much have the world covered!

Cheers for clarifying

Not so much automated, I download data, generate signals if any, place all my orders as limits that will automatically cancel if not filled in the IB TWS, only usually 2 or 3 orders to place a day so not much work, just have to be aware of times when the exchange opens that if I get the fill email, I place/check the stop has activated, then with many exchanges having an MOC order, its either closed then or at the stop level, the Spi is the only market that’s a bit of a pain as there is no MOC available so it has to be done manually, could use a good after time at 4-29.50 or similar “at market” but being in Oz its not really an issue and if its not closed, then the night session is only less than an hour away.

 

[AlterEgo]

Great stuff AlterEgo, was this actively trading shares or more of a research then sticking with one good one, more investing style? Or something else? Nice results

Active trading. Only holding for a few days or so. Doing a few hundred trades per year.