Execute or Rehabilitate Indonesian Style

[tech/a]

Would you dob him in to the cops ?

Private mailed you.
He is well known to police.

 

[McLovin]

Why didn't he simply talk with his son?

Outside of Leave it to Beaver this doesn't really bear out in reality.

The AFP have some questions to answer. Even Blind Freddy would have had the foresight to know the outcome of a group caught with commercial quantities of heroin in Indonesia. It's worth remembering that Australia does not allow the extradition of suspects to other countries where they would face charges that carry the death penalty. The AFP already knew of the existence of this drug ring before they left Australia and could have apprehended them at the airport on suspicion, for some reason they chose to use them as live bait and informed the Indonesians.

Indonesia has a right to do as it sees fit with those convicted in her courts, but they've acted like a bunch of wombats in the manner in which they've carried out this sentence.

 

[tech/a]

Outside of Leave it to Beaver this doesn't really bear out in reality.

If it doesn't in any family then there is something seriously wrong

As there was/is in Rush's case.

 

[McLovin]

If it doesn't in any family then there is something seriously wrong

Well yes. I think when you're kid is considering transporting heroin out of Bali there is something seriously wrong. I don't think it's as easy as you make out though to stop an adult from doing something, which is no doubt why he reached out to the AFP for help.

 

[sptrawler]

Your ability to reason isn't very good. AFP's intelligence was that they were going to try and import the heroin into Australia. They could have pulled them aside at the Australian airport before they left the country and told them the Indonesians knew they were coming or they could have picked them up when they landed in Australia.

The AFP are a bunch of **** ups (see Haneef) who get themselves into these situations and then try to spin their way out.

Who is to say that would have done any good.

The AFP and the Government have told everyone not to go to Syria and join ISIS, do you think it has stopped those who want to go? They face the likelyhood of being shot and up on return to Australia criminal charges, people still go.

It isn't the responsibility of the police to inform people that they are the target of a criminal investigation.
It is the responsibility of the criminal to assess the risk / reward of the criminal act.

The police every night on t.v ,tell people speeding in a car can lead to loss of control and subsequent death.

Does that stop people doing 200klm/hr down the road? No.

When do you let people take responsibility for their own actions?

The police were following a case that would lead them to a drug ring, before they left Australia they had done nothing wrong, why would you tell them you were watching them?
They are probably watching heaps of suspected drug users, that leave Australia, for an Asian holiday.
You want the police to give them a personal warning.

Since when has policing become parenting?

You may as well park the police at the airport, to tell every older male traveller to Asia, that pedophelia is a crime in Asia and they could end up in serious trouble.

I understand people think executing people is wrong and I agree, however if people weigh up the risk/ reward and chose to take the risk, they no doubt will just be more careful if you warn them.
I doubt very much, you would change their motivation.

Just my opinion, and yes I know speeding may kill me, and yes I ride a motorcycle, therefore my risk of serious injury or death is much higher. The police have told me and I still do it.

 

[banco]

The police were following a case that would lead them to a drug ring, before they left Australia they had done nothing wrong, why would you tell them you were watching them?
They are probably watching heaps of suspected drug users, that leave Australia, for an Asian holiday.
You want the police to give them a personal warning.

There's a big difference between been told that you might get caught speeding as it's illegal and there's speed cameras and being told the police know you're coming, they know your names etc.

Again in case you haven't been reading the newspapers the consequences of the bali 9 getting caught have been rather serious for Australian/Indonesian relations. So it might have been worthwhile for officer plod from the AFP to have confronted them at Sydney airport (they have AFP posted at the airport anyway).

To add to the AFP's reputation for incompetence they never did catch anyone further up the chain in the drug trafficking ring and apparently the Mr Big has since won the lottery (not in the metaphorical sense) and is retired and living well in Sydney.

 

[tech/a]

There's a big difference between been told that you might get caught speeding as it's illegal and there's speed cameras and being told the police know you're coming, they know your names etc.

Again in case you haven't been reading the newspapers the consequences of the bali 9 getting caught have been rather serious for Australian/Indonesian relations. So it might have been worthwhile for officer plod from the AFP to have confronted them at Sydney airport (they have AFP posted at the airport anyway).

To add to the AFP's reputation for incompetence they never did catch anyone further up the chain in the drug trafficking ring and apparently the Mr Big has since won the lottery (not in the metaphorical sense) and is retired and living well in Sydney.

Just cant fathom this type of response.

Why couldn't Dad have said this.

"Son as you know I know ----in the AFP.
I know your going to attempt to smuggle drugs out of Bali to Australia.
You realise its the death penalty if you get caught in Bali!
I've notified them of what your going to do so they are fully aware.

If you need help and are in this too deep to think you cant pull out then
come with me to ---- and we will sort it out
Goes for all your friends caught up in this as well.
Don't make the one mistake in life that completely ruins it."

He could then rattle off any number of examples.

Take responsibility-------------

 

[sptrawler]

Again in case you haven't been reading the newspapers the consequences of the bali 9 getting caught have been rather serious for Australian/Indonesian relations.
.

As I said in an earlier post, Abbott may rue the day he got involved in the debacle.

I'm sure there are just as many people, who think the drug ring leaders deserved what they got, as people who disagree with the outcome.

It just doesn't whip up as much media hysteria.

 

[SirRumpole]

As I said in an earlier post, Abbott may rue the day he got involved in the debacle.

I'm sure there are just as many people, who think the drug ring leaders deserved what they got, as people who disagree with the outcome.

It just doesn't whip up as much media hysteria.

There certainly wasn't as much emotion and sympathy here for the Bali bombers who were executed.

Most Aussies would have cheered and said "serves them right", so there is an inconsistency that we have to sort out if we try and say that all capital punishment is evil.

I think that the only thing that warrants it is mass murder, terrorism and genocide. Drug smuggling is certainly evil, but is not the worst of crimes and it shouldn't be treated as such.

 

[Macquack]

Because they shoot people, we don't telll them? or we knowingly compromise a criminal investigation, because it may end badly for the criminals?

Think this through.

From now on, no parent with ever tip off the Australian Federal Police if they know of their child being involved in a international drug smuggling operation.

Consequently, more drugs will flow into Australia.

The best outcome in the Bali Nine case would have been that they were all apprehended in Australia and did "extended" time in Australian jails.

The heartless, bloodless conservatives in Australia need a wake up call.

 

[IFocus]

Your ability to reason isn't very good. AFP's intelligence was that they were going to try and import the heroin into Australia. They could have pulled them aside at the Australian airport before they left the country and told them the Indonesians knew they were coming or they could have picked them up when they landed in Australia.

The AFP are a bunch of **** ups (see Haneef) who get themselves into these situations and then try to spin their way out.

Agree the level of sophistication shown by the AFP = 0

The AFP have blood on their hands as anyone can see whether it was for intelligence we don't know about or what ever their reputation as a clever sophisticated organisation is shot to hell and who in the hell would ever trust them?

Plus they now have total access to your life though data retention laws go AFP

 

[sptrawler]

Think this through.

From now on, no parent with ever tip off the Australian Federal Police if they know of their child being involved in a international drug smuggling operation.

Consequently, more drugs will flow into Australia.

The best outcome in the Bali Nine case would have been that they were all apprehended in Australia and did "extended" time in Australian jails.

The heartless, bloodless conservatives in Australia need a wake up call.

That is on the assumption, that they wouldn't be found going through customs in Indonesia. There was every likely hood they would have been detected anyway. The whole argument is silly.

It also makes the assumption, they were coming back to Australia, what if they went to NZ.

They couldn't be apprehended, before they left Australia, because they had done nothing wrong.

Also it requires Australian Police, knowingly withhold information, that a criminal activity is happening in a neighbouring country. That really amounts to aiding and abetting, which would have massive ramifications if they somehow weren't apprehended by the AFP.

How would we like it, if say the Indonesian police suspected a group of Indonesians, were coming to Australia to carry out a terrorist act.
But Indonesian police don't tell us, because they feel it better to deal with them when they return home.

It is emotional nonsense.

 

[noco]

Think this through.

From now on, no parent with ever tip off the Australian Federal Police if they know of their child being involved in a international drug smuggling operation.

Consequently, more drugs will flow into Australia.

The best outcome in the Bali Nine case would have been that they were all apprehended in Australia and did "extended" time in Australian jails.

The heartless, bloodless conservatives in Australia need a wake up call.

Do you really think after what has happened with the two executions that others will risk doing the same?

These two fellows knew the risk...there are signs at the international airport about the death penalty for trafficking drugs.....They took the took the risk and got caught....Even though one of the fathers tipped off the AFP...They would in every possibility have been caught in Indonesia.

They had some 85,000 doses strapped to their bodies....How many kids may have overdosed and died as a result of their foolishness?

 

[Macquack]

That is on the assumption, that they wouldn't be found going through customs in Indonesia. There was every likely hood they would have been detected anyway. The whole argument is silly.

The Indonesians were tipped off, hardly "every likely hood they would have been detected anyway".

It also makes the assumption, they were coming back to Australia, what if they went to NZ.

The AFP are not responsible for NZ.

They couldn't be apprehended, before they left Australia, because they had done nothing wrong.

Same does not apply to Syria bound tourists

Also it requires Australian Police, knowingly withhold information, that a criminal activity is happening in a neighbouring country. That really amounts to aiding and abetting, which would have massive ramifications if they somehow weren't apprehended by the AFP.

The AFP were not instrumental in gaining the information. They were tipped off. I am making the point that they will not be tipped off ever again by a informed parent of a drug smuggler. It was a easy pay day for the AFP, game is over.

 

[Macquack]

Do you really think after what has happened with the two executions that others will risk doing the same?

Will the sun come up tomorrow

These two fellows knew the risk...there are signs at the international airport about the death penalty for trafficking drugs.....They took the took the risk and got caught....Even though one of the fathers tipped off the AFP...They would in every possibility have been caught in Indonesia.

They were tipped off, end of story.

They had some 85,000 doses strapped to their bodies....How many kids may have overdosed and died as a result of their foolishness?

Noco you need a better term than "foolishness" to send someone to the firing squad.

I will say it again, the AFP's actions will backfire on them.

 

[sptrawler]

The Indonesians were tipped off, hardly "every likely hood they would have been detected anyway".


The AFP are not responsible for NZ.


Same does not apply to Syria bound tourists


The AFP were not instrumental in gaining the information. They were tipped off. I am making the point that they will not be tipped off ever again by a informed parent of a drug smuggler. It was a easy pay day for the AFP, game is over.

It is obviously pointless discussing it further.:1zhelp:

 

[SirRumpole]

How would we like it, if say the Indonesian police suspected a group of Indonesians, were coming to Australia to carry out a terrorist act.
But Indonesian police don't tell us, because they feel it better to deal with them when they return home.

That's not a relevant analogy.

The real effect of the drug crime would have occurred in Australia when the drugs were sold. It would have had very little effect in Indonesia because the drugs would not be used there.

Indonesian terrorists would have caused damage in Australia and then returned home.

Indonesia ignored their own Constitution and the advice of the prison governor who said that the two had reformed.

This smacks of an execution for political purposes and is therefore abhorrent.

 

[Tisme]

If it doesn't in any family then there is something seriously wrong

As there was/is in Rush's case.

What do you know about Scott Rush's family that rest of us don't? I can tell you that they were overtly decent people when I met them prior to Scott's misadventure.

I can also tell you Scott himself was a very amiable, polite and seemingly sensible lad. That he fell into the allure of risk taking is demonstrable just how youth (as always) consider themselves invulnerable and invisible.

Too easy to paint kids with adult paint and judge them accordingly. Too easy as a superior parent to consider their own spawn as superior to others because of superior parenting.

 

[tech/a]

What do you know about Scott Rush's family that rest of us don't? I can tell you that they were overtly decent people when I met them prior to Scott's misadventure.

I can also tell you Scott himself was a very amiable, polite and seemingly sensible lad. That he fell into the allure of risk taking is demonstrable just how youth (as always) consider themselves invulnerable and invisible.

Too easy to paint kids with adult paint and judge them accordingly. Too easy as a superior parent to consider their own spawn as superior to others because of superior parenting.

Don't have to know him or his parents.

There was something seriously wrong with the relationship as a family unit.

What do I know
My wife and I have been involved with street kids for 20 yrs.
Pretty well qualified to comment on dysfunctional families
Got a heap of kids who aren't biologically mine who call me dad and
Lots of Grand kids.

If there is one thing I have observed in all these years.
If you put the time you have to into kids
Respect them as individuals and you'll get the respect back.

Never under estimate the value of a father in a family.
Of all the kids off the right track the larger majority don't
Have a father/figure INVOLVED in their life.

 

[SirRumpole]

Never under estimate the value of a father in a family.
Of all the kids off the right track the larger majority don't
Have a father/figure INVOLVED in their life.

Yet your own situation seems to indicate that good parenting does not always work.

You obviously grew up to be an intelligent caring person, but your brother went in the other direction.

Is this your parent's fault ?