Depression

[Tisme]

My wife was a depressant, which was rather hard for me to handle and I think it actually contributed to her final demise. My son has bipolar in a big way, which just added guilt to my wife, blaming her gene pool.

I can't say I ever really had what I observed in my wife or boy and my daughter is very much like me. However since finding my love unexpectedly gone from this world, her body slumped in a chair I must say I have a hard time putting in the good fight, although I still keep being reminded by strangers my work rate is apparently admirable. Some of my long time friends have decided I'm on the nose for not being entertaining enough, even though I didn't milk for sympathy and presented happy... that haunts me too.

So rather than even think about the nightmare beset me, I just keep on keeping on as best I can, do my usual good Samaritan work for people, avoid the drink, have marathon sex with women (did I say I really love women:- I was faithful for 36 years +2) which usually includes some moderated beer, Sambuca and 43 and I have my friend Mr Cialis if I need him .... did I say that particular medication is probably up there with penicillin as one of the greatest discoveries of all time

I had 36 years to figure out a cure for depression and the best I could come up with was to avoid trying to offer logical cures and shut my mouth when I wanted to say e.g. "cheer up, you have nothing to worry about, why are you so sad, smile, take a pill, don't you love me anymore, not again ...." It seems even depressants don't know how to offer advice to depressants, so people like me should just stand by to give support.

Wayne (&Rumpole et al) I'm here to give you support if you want it

 

[Knobby22]

A woman walked into a bar and asked for a double entendre, so he gave her one.

You've got me depressed now Knobby, I don't get it

A double entendre is saying a sentence that has two meanings, one innocent, the other dirty.
A classic comic device used in mainly English shows including Carry On Gang, Are you being served, Shakespeare and Austin Power's movies. Extensively used in rap today. I just find them very amusing.

Sometimes they are accidental , another (true) example is:

A female news anchor who, the day after it was supposed to have
snowed and hadn't, turned to the weatherman and asked:
"So Bob, where's that eight inches you promised me last night?" (The weatherman and half the crew were so helpless with laughter they had to leave the set.)

So with the original joke, she asked for a double entendre so he gave her one -has two meanings - one he gave her the double entendre or he gave her "one". it's a joke on the meaning of double entendre.

 

[SirRumpole]

"So Bob, where's that eight inches you promised me last night?" (The weatherman and half the crew were so helpless with laughter they had to leave the set.)

Ah yes, another classic from a newsreader

"A woman is in hospital tonight after being bitten on the funnel by a fingerweb spider"

Had me in stitches for days.

 

[cynic]

...." It seems even depressants don't know how to offer advice to depressants, so people like me should just stand by to give support.
...

+1

It's such an easy mistake to make! I've observed myself making it repeatedly over the years.

Being subjected to "helpful" reassurances from others can often result in belittlement rather than support, especially when a "helper" enthusiatically claims to know exactly what the subject is enduring and how easily the situation may be remedied.

There's a lot that I'm tempted to say here, however, a recent experience leads me to believe that it may be more prudent to desist.

I recently discussed matters of a related nature to a long term (and now former) friend. The friend rang me the following day complaining that it took her half an hour, following our previous conversation, for her to convince herself not to jump off her balcony.

We've not spoken to each other since, which is unfortunate since we'd been good friends for decades.

For those that are experiencing a noticeable absence of joy in life, it is my sincere hope that you somehow manage to catch a lucky break (hopefully via discovery of the underlying cause and an effective remedy).

 

[SirRumpole]

There's a lot that I'm tempted to say here, however, a recent experience leads me to believe that it may be more prudent to desist.

Yes, very difficult to know what to say unless you have experienced depression yourself, and even then is one person's depression like another person's ?

Probably the best advice one can give is to seek professional help.

 

[Knobby22]

Take up tap dancing.
That's what I heard today suggested for people feeling a bit blue.
I personally would love to be able to do a soft shoe shuffle wearing a suitable felt hat.

 

[SirRumpole]

Very sorry to hear of your situation Tisme.

You always post good stuff and give some laughs.

Please carry on.

 

[wayneL]

Thank you each and every one of you for your replies and encouragement, especially those who've been touched by this directly or as a support person for someone. I must admit to being a bit overwhelmed.

My condition is moderate and now that Ive cast aside the psychological ramparts I've been using to hide from myself, its very tough to function and feels horrible. I cannot imagine how hard this is for those with severe depression, kudos to you and to those who support you/them. That is courage.... and I now have a small inkling of why some choose not to carry on

I owe some personal replies and hope you understand if it takes me some days to do so.

Bless you guys and gals, you are real pearls... and Godspeed to those who are struggling with their own demons.

 

[Julia]

So rather than even think about the nightmare beset me, I just keep on keeping on as best I can, do my usual good Samaritan work for people

Bugger. Don't let the pschys pump you with drugs. Don't medicalise it unless you are truly suffering a depressive state.

And just because you feel a bit down sometimes doesn't mean you are truly depressed, it might just mean that you are not happy with the way your life is running at the present time , in a bit of a rut. I suggest do something different.

There's a lot that I'm tempted to say here, however, a recent experience leads me to believe that it may be more prudent to desist.

I share your reticence, cynic. Especially if one's thoughts may tend to run counter to the prevailing theme.
I've also been chided in the past by one member for being too serious, and by another for being too self-disclosing, so am bearing both those admonitions in mind.

Thoreau said:

The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.

So it seems unhappiness/depression/sadness was, at least in the view of this philosopher, just as prevalent in the 19th century as it appears to be today.

Any comment I might have may or may not be influenced by:

*several years running a large medical centre where my husband was a partner
*the partner following being a psychiatrist
*working for a multinational pharmaceutical company with an emphasis on psychoactive drugs and therefore much time spent in psychiatric hospitals
*my own experience of grief, PTSD and suicidal level of depression.

We seem to be experiencing an epidemic of obesity, diabetes and depression. The first is only too obvious, the second biologically measurable, but we have no objective test for what we broadly call 'depression'.

How do we define it? Is it just a lack of joy? I'd suggest that few ordinary people traverse their everyday lives filled with joy; more often than not they manage to endure, do what they have to in order to meet the demands and obligations of ordinariness. Is it a sense of irritability, a quickness to find fault, thus an outlet for internal disquiet and anger? And so on through the full gamut of emotions to the ultimate state of desperation which leads to suicide?

Knobby above endorses my own hope that people are not easily persuaded to medication. It seems to work for some people. So does placebo. Alternatives are - again suggested by Knobby - physical activity which can be tap dancing, running, swimming, any vigorous sustained exercise that raises endorphin levels but perhaps more importantly gives that psychological reassurance of "hell, I've just run 15 kms: I'm doing pretty damn well".

I've known people with truly terrible lives, disadvantage and tragedy that would crush many, yet they keep smiling and manage to focus on what is still good. Often they're the ones who reach out to others, the ones who volunteer in their communities and as a result receive a sense of being useful, being valued.

I've asked my former husband, all his partners, psychologists and psychiatrists, my current GP "are most people happy enough with their lives?" Without exception the answer was "no, not really". "Most people struggle to cope".

I think how we perceive life has much to do with our expectations. When I first as a naive young woman fell in love, I had every expectation of the happy ever after stuff. Probably most people getting married now feel similarly. But it's just not often so with about a fifty percent divorce rate.

Everywhere we see exhortations to be happy, 'get more out of life', 'the secrets of true happiness', 'how to change your thinking' etc etc. Raising our expectations that there's something wrong with us if we just more or less manage to negotiate life's major hurdles, often feeling exhausted by the difficulties.

I've no such expectations, haven't had for a long time. I'm content enough with just peace, lack of fear, a sense of financial and material security. Any joy comes from the simplest of sources - my dog's love of every second of her life, the way she makes me smile just because she's so beautiful in temperament as well as appearance, the beauty of a garden I've worked hundreds of hours to create, the pure clarity of the water as we walk beside the sea, the immersing pleasure of beautiful music and the writings of talented wordsmiths.

Of course there's sadness for opportunities lost, poor decisions made, but they are what they are. No point ruminating over what could or should have been.

I'm really concerned about the pathologising of emotions. Why do we have an expectation that life will be either fair or make us happy? Seems to me that there is so much focus on the self, the analysis of every emotion, when alternatively we could often say to ourselves "it is what it is". Then look for what is good and what you've achieved.

This does not mean taking a panglossian view of the world (Voltaire's professor who believed 'everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds') but rather a shifting of focus from what is lacking to what we have to be thankful for.

We live in one of the best countries in the world with largely stable government, good health care, good social support. Of course it's not perfect but it beats many many countries hands down.
Yet we have people who are employed, earning reasonable incomes, many choices available to them, but they put all their focus on what they believe is missing.

Tisme says above: "I just keep on keeping on as best I can, do my usual good Samaritan work for people"
Sounds about right for me too.

None of the above musings are any more than that and are not directed toward any individual or are in response to any particular comment by anyone.

 

[SirRumpole]

Nice post Julia.

I'm wondering how much of depression is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain which can be corrected by drugs or diet. If a person is ok one day but down the next, some sort of imbalance would be suggested.

I think most of us fall into this category. We have occasional spells of depression, but most of the time we are ok.

So I would be interested to know Julia from your contacts if there is a biological relationship between mental state and brain chemistry. Obviously, seriously mentally ill people are treated with drugs which I know have some pretty bad side effects, but for the majority of us who just need a "pick me up", do you know of any dietary remedies ?

 

[Julia]

Nice post Julia.

I'm wondering how much of depression is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain which can be corrected by drugs or diet. If a person is ok one day but down the next, some sort of imbalance would be suggested.

I think most of us fall into this category. We have occasional spells of depression, but most of the time we are ok.

So I would be interested to know Julia from your contacts if there is a biological relationship between mental state and brain chemistry. Obviously, seriously mentally ill people are treated with drugs which I know have some pretty bad side effects, but for the majority of us who just need a "pick me up", do you know of any dietary remedies ?

This is something I'd prefer not to make any particular comment on, Rumpole. I've already said that, unlike for say diabetes, afaik there is no no blood test which will demonstrate any lack or excess of anything.

Ditto diet. The magazines are, of course, full of supa foods which will cure everything.

It makes simple sense to me that if you do the best you can to eat with a view to sensible nutrition, don't over indulge in alcohol, drugs, your substance of choice, and get plenty of exercise in the fresh air, that's going to be helpful.

One factor I omitted to include is the reality that a significant physical illness can play in one's emotional state. Obviously, if you're in chronic pain, have a debilitating illness, you're somewhat unlikely to be jumping for joy.
No reason imo to medicate what seems to me a perfectly rational response to an unpleasant and difficult situation. Again, it is what it is.
Sorry not to be more helpful.

 

[noco]

I came across this article which some viewers may appreciate.

It is about the symptoms, causes and cure.

I personally went through it many years ago and took up yoga and meditation which I practiced for 18 years.

I still use it now an then when I need it.......meditation is a wonderful brain healing and is relaxing for the body, mind and the soul.

http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/DEPRESSION - Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment.html

 

[sptrawler]

I came across this article which some viewers may appreciate.

It is about the symptoms, causes and cure.

I personally went through it many years ago and took up yoga and meditation which I practiced for 18 years.

I still use it now an then when I need it.......meditation is a wonderful brain healing and is relaxing for the body, mind and the soul.

http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/DEPRESSION - Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment.html

That's a good article noco, as it says most people go through periods of depression.

I certainly have, but fortunately I have a person in my life that inspires me.
Her ability to to remain positive and happy, despite personal handicaps many would find debilitating, gives me the reality check I need.

These days there is far too much access to information and social contact, years ago people could only compare their situation and achievements, with their imediate circle of contacts.

Now everyone can have external pressures, applied from all and sundry through social media and the internet.
I bet the rate of chronic depression has increased since the advent of the internet.

 

[pixel]

I came across this article which some viewers may appreciate.

It is about the symptoms, causes and cure.

I personally went through it many years ago and took up yoga and meditation which I practiced for 18 years.

I still use it now an then when I need it.......meditation is a wonderful brain healing and is relaxing for the body, mind and the soul.

http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/DEPRESSION - Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment.html

Thanks for sharing that article, noco.
From my own experience - decades in the past - I can vouch for the author's key points, including what you mentioned about yoga and meditation. The details don't matter in this context; 4-5 decades ago, little was known about seratonin and neurotransmitters. However, my Therapist introduced me to meditation to put the brakes on that "garbage truck". Once I had regained calm and rational thought, we could tackle the source and make the necessary life changes.

Years later, I resumed and intensified practicing Hatha Yoga to the point that I use it not only to control mental adversity, but also physical pain. The latter is particularly helpful when I expel a kidney stone; it also eliminates the need for any needles at the Dentist's. (Funny enough, the only pain I can NOT control that way is a migraine: a lasting reminder of a head injury from a car accident in the '90s.)

 

[Muschu]

Seems a well balanced article Noco. Thank you.

I'm heading towards 70 and have spent some of my working years as a psychologist. I've also experienced my own issues.

I am very much research based. (I wouldn't choose a medical specialist who worked from anecdotal information).

The treatment approach to depression needs very careful consideration and not an impulsive reaction. Meditation (not the self-appointed guru variety), medication, therapy, quality support and exercise may all have a place.

At the risk of repeating myself (as I have mentioned this before): A few years back I came across the work of Professor Jon Kabat-Zinn of Boston on Mindfulness Meditation for depression, anxiety and pain control and undertook the training myself. Worth a look and doesn't need to be used in isolation from other approaches.

In my view it is a great step forward to be open about a mental issue rather than hiding it because of stigma. An anonymous Internet forum is an excellent start. Disclosing face-to-face to TRUSTED others, including quality Drs and therapists, is the next step.

Internet forums can be VERY supporitve but won't resolve depression or a multitude of other medical conditions.

Enough for now.

Rick

 

[Julia]

Now everyone can have external pressures, applied from all and sundry through social media and the internet.
I bet the rate of chronic depression has increased since the advent of the internet.

Hard to tell, I guess, whether it has actually increased or more people are talking about it. Perhaps both.
As with sexual abuse, the more publicity that occurs, the more people will disclose their own experiences.
I'm not sure that means it's any more common than several generations ago, when people nurtured a greater sense of personal privacy.

Social media seems to harbour a good deal of bullying and nastiness even before you get to what to me is the unnecessary and boring compulsion of so many to describe their every mood change and treatment thereof to the world at large.

We don't rush to broadcast that we have various physical ailments, so I'm a bit puzzled about why it's become so common to discuss mood.

Seems a well balanced article Noco. Thank you.

Agree on the whole. What it omits, however, is that some of the SSRI's, particularly Zoloft, have caused worsening of depression in some people. I know two people who were mildly (and perhaps quite reasonably) sad - one after a marriage break up and the other after a miscarriage - but by no means suicidal or immobilised by depression, became suicidal. The medication was stopped and any suicidal ideation disappeared.

My own father briefly took Zoloft. He became hypomanic in the first week - frenetic activity, crazy thought patterns, like a completely different person.

If someone has a definitive study, double blind, randomised, etc. that shows clear efficacy over placebo of any of the SSRI's I'd be most interested. I'm not saying they don't work. I'm just aware of many factors being involved in 'recovery', not the least of which is the patient's belief in the prescribing doctor.

We also don't know all the long term side effects of this class of drugs. Just yesterday there was an additional study which showed a strong correlation between sustained (as little as 90 days) use of benzodiazepines (anxiolytics like valium et al) and Alzheimer's Disease. It was conducted by, I think, a Professor of Medicine at the University of Indiana, but I've so far not been able to find any details re numbers, controls etc.

I am very much research based. (I wouldn't choose a medical specialist who worked from anecdotal information).

In my view it is a great step forward to be open about a mental issue rather than hiding it because of stigma.

Do you really think there is still stigma attached to depression? I'd agree that there certainly is when it comes to such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder etc., but - as already stated - most people have experienced periods of depression, some mildly, some severely.

An anonymous Internet forum is an excellent start.

Disclosing face-to-face to TRUSTED others, including quality Drs and therapists, is the next step.

I'd very much put those two suggestions the other way around but respect your right to your own priorities.

 

[herzy]

This is something I'd prefer not to make any particular comment on, Rumpole. I've already said that, unlike for say diabetes, afaik there is no no blood test which will demonstrate any lack or excess of anything.

Ditto diet. The magazines are, of course, full of supa foods which will cure everything.

It makes simple sense to me that if you do the best you can to eat with a view to sensible nutrition, don't over indulge in alcohol, drugs, your substance of choice, and get plenty of exercise in the fresh air, that's going to be helpful.

This may be of interest - but it's very far from being hard science. http://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/blood-test-may-help-diagnose-depression-1.1754474#.VCZPt51--70

That aside, I believe that SSRIs do have a place for some people. As many have said, it's important to distinguish between natural and temporary depressive states and a chronic tendency towards depressive thoughts.

Although I don't really have any science to back it up, and am aware of the effects of placebo and whatnot, I thought I might share my story and advice (for what it's worth).

I have a family history of depression and come from a fairly neglected childhood. When I was 17 I got glandular fever, which knocked me out (left me depressed, demotivated and exhausted) for about 6 months. I found it impossible to get out of this negative sphere, and was quite depressed (but able to recognise that it was - hopefully - a temporary state, and was therefore not suicidal). I started seeing a psychologist but found that entirely useless. I started antidepressants (and went on exchange) and stopped taking them a few months later. I thought they were great, and have a personal theory that post-glandular I had a chemical imbalance / consistently lowered serotonin (this can also happen during traumatic events) which became the new 'baseline'/normal level. As such, the SSRIs were great for re-establishing a 'normal' level, and cognitive behavioural therapy relatively useless.

I do think my case is rarer though, and psychologists are generally a MUCH better solution than SSRIs. I still feel like my default state is 'unhappy', and that it actively takes effort for me to be neutral or happy (although I am most of the time). I wouldn't classify myself as depressed any more (by any means) but rather as having a tendency towards depression.

I think things like social support, being outside as much as possible (and as physically active as possible) are essential. These things have consistently been proven to be immensely good for health.

I do also feel like more intelligent people tend to 'think' more about the world, and that given how many bad things there are in this world (climate change, humanitarian crises, etc - pick your poison), it's impossible not to take this to heart to some extent. That said, that might just be because of my depressive prism - I'm not sure.

 

[burglar]

... That said, that might just be because of my depressive prism - I'm not sure.

My opinion:
Its not your prism, but the media's reporting prism.
**** happens!
It takes a huge zoom lens and sensational byline to focus our attention on the news.

I refuse to watch it.

 

[herzy]

My opinion:
Its not your prism, but the media's reporting prism.
**** happens!
It takes a huge zoom lens and sensational byline to focus our attention on the news.

I refuse to watch it.

Yes and no. I pay zero attention to Australian news, because it's myopic and sensationalist as you say. The only attention I give to Australian politics is at election time, as I find it frustratingly myopic, sensationalist, contradictory, island mentality etc...

I do however pay attention to what's going on in the world because I think everybody should be engaged in or interested in the world we inhabit (at least on some level) as opposed to sticking one's head in the sand and being happy with one's own personal situation. When I do so, I realise there are a lot of things to be sad about (namely disease, natural disasters, climate change, and politics and religion and their effects) - which isn't really the fault of the media, but a result of the world in which we live.

 

[Muschu]

Hard to tell, I guess, whether it has actually increased or more people are talking about it. Perhaps both.
As with sexual abuse, the more publicity that occurs, the more people will disclose their own experiences.
I'm not sure that means it's any more common than several generations ago, when people nurtured a greater sense of personal privacy.

Social media seems to harbour a good deal of bullying and nastiness even before you get to what to me is the unnecessary and boring compulsion of so many to describe their every mood change and treatment thereof to the world at large.

We don't rush to broadcast that we have various physical ailments, so I'm a bit puzzled about why it's become so common to discuss mood.


Agree on the whole. What it omits, however, is that some of the SSRI's, particularly Zoloft, have caused worsening of depression in some people. I know two people who were mildly (and perhaps quite reasonably) sad - one after a marriage break up and the other after a miscarriage - but by no means suicidal or immobilised by depression, became suicidal. The medication was stopped and any suicidal ideation disappeared.

My own father briefly took Zoloft. He became hypomanic in the first week - frenetic activity, crazy thought patterns, like a completely different person.

If someone has a definitive study, double blind, randomised, etc. that shows clear efficacy over placebo of any of the SSRI's I'd be most interested. I'm not saying they don't work. I'm just aware of many factors being involved in 'recovery', not the least of which is the patient's belief in the prescribing doctor.

We also don't know all the long term side effects of this class of drugs. Just yesterday there was an additional study which showed a strong correlation between sustained (as little as 90 days) use of benzodiazepines (anxiolytics like valium et al) and Alzheimer's Disease. It was conducted by, I think, a Professor of Medicine at the University of Indiana, but I've so far not been able to find any details re numbers, controls etc.





Do you really think there is still stigma attached to depression? I'd agree that there certainly is when it comes to such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder etc., but - as already stated - most people have experienced periods of depression, some mildly, some severely.




I'd very much put those two suggestions the other way around but respect your right to your own priorities.

Thanks Julia

Just briefly:

I am certainly not a medical practitioner but have an awareness of SSRI issues. This is not an infallible route of course but certainly worthy of research and professional advice.

By "stigma" I meant from the viewpoint of the depressed person. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Regarding the closing two suggestions. I probably wouldn't prioritise in "order of worth" as this is likely to be linked to personal circumstances.

Regards