Middle class parents apparently, should choose public schools to improve equity

[Judd]

And another thing. Occasionally all is not as it seems.

I had a working relationship with one parent over a few years as our kids were involved in the same sporting activities.

Hers went to public high school whereas mine went private. She was always giving me heaps over my choice and saying how wonderfully well her children were doing "Grade A students" and all that - as if I could verify what she was saying was true as she wasn't handing over the report cards or getting the school to send me a copy.

Anyway, her husband was, hmm, how to say it, more open? One day he inadvertently let slip they had wanted to send their kids to the private school but could not afford the fees.

A good lesson for me about people and one I have borne in mind ever since.

 

[rumpole]

They have done something about it. Called "Youth Correctional Facilities." They then graduate to the Big Boys House.

Are these for kids who misbehave in class or only those who have committed a criminal offence ?

 

[Judd]

Are these for kids who misbehave in class or only those who have committed a criminal offence ?

It's been a delight to know you as well.

Outta here. Exits stage left.

 

[rumpole]

It's been a delight to know you as well.

Outta here. Exits stage left.

C'Ya

 

[McLovin]

On the other hand, I fully appreciate the fact that, having not attended a private school, I simply don't know what I may be missing. I want to give my kids the best education and opportunities in life where possible. While I have heard plenty of people question whether private schools are worth the money, I rarely hear that private schools are inferior. So it comes down to this... if I can afford to send my kids to a private school and it gives them some marginal, incremental benefits for the rest of their lives, then that's what I would do. All other considerations are somewhat secondary.

I think you get more "school spirit" at a private school, than a public school. At least at my school the emphasis wasn't purely on grades (Jamie Packer called it the Club Med of the Eastern Suburbs) but on turning out well rounded individuals. So you get the standard doctors, lawyers, bankers but also artists, photographers, actors etc. The idea is to let each student find themselves rather than assume that everyone wants to go to university and become a doctor, lawyer, banker. That's not how all private schools are run, and that sort of school won't appeal to every parent but ultimately you had every opportunity to excel academically but if that wasn't your strong suit then they would try and find what was and steer you toward that. I don't know what public schools are like, but I imagine with limited resources it's either excel academically or you the student becomes somewhat lost.

There are bad private schools too. I think you only get an idea by going to a few open days and getting a feeling of what sort of school it is.

 

[Judd]

Wow one little non-crisis resolved.

Again, it's only my view. I don't consider the views of anybody else should be heeded as to where to place your children. Those who have their kids in a particular school, be it public or private, are going to provide their biased point of view. Those who have shifted between the two will likely give the same. I just based my decision on experience with particular schools.

As to the lack of discipline/bad behavior, as I have said previously there were a lot of ratbag kids at the private school my children went to. Some never got caught in the act apparently, so I am not overly convinced about the discipline part. And the concept of misbehaviour is wide.

Anyway, what do you do, in any school, about an ultra bright boy who would announce that today he would make the teacher cry? Using words. He did. Evil, twisted brat. Even his parents gave up; they were not within a bull's roar of his capacity. No, he didn't have a medical condition which required medication. He was just a nasty piece of work. And the parents whose three boys were given the same opportunities, the eldest and youngest going to Uni but the middle one? Drugs, break and enter, stealing cars, assault.

i suppose you can pour as much money as you like into either system but it still doesn't ensure the children will be engaged in their education. One teacher I spoke with told me that was a question he is continually asked by parents. His response is once you've found the answer let me know because I have been looking for it for 30 years.

Mine were encourage to get into activities which were not strictly of an academic nature such as Outward Bound. At one stage a local business was hosting a charity dinner for some elderly residents of a nursing home and was a bit short on help. Late on the day he phoned the school which sent out a call volunteers and about a dozen students, both boys and girls, off they went for zero pay. Of course, if he had phoned the local public school the same may have happened.

Overall, I don't have an answer to any of it. I am not a teacher, I'm not a researcher or educator. I am only a parent who wings it and hopes he has made the best decision possible for his kids. I must be the odd one out according to some.

 

[basilio]

Private schools vs Public schools.

I have an education background across all school systems. I have taught in private and state schools. Had kids in both systems and at different levels. It's always a vexed dinner conversation. So just a few points that have come up over the years from direct experience and observations.

1) State schools do suffer when parents withdraw their children to take them to private schools. Essentially the brighter children are moved. The result is a loss of talent that makes it harder to teach/motivate HSC classes. Teachers need a certain number of intelligent motivated children in their classes to help maintain expected standards.

2) Selective state schools are very, very good. Uni High, Melb High, McRob Girls High, Glen Waverley Sec College to name a few offer outstanding education programs. And they don't cost $20k a year.

3) Private schools offer scholarships to make the schools look good The design and selection of scholarships brings in the best talent from state schools and is intended to make academic, sporting and cultural achievements of the new school GLOW. I would not deny that these schools have the facilities to help these skilled students achieve. But in the end the school takes the credit for the results and uses these results to bring in other fee paying students

4) (Some) Private schools bump non winners Ugly but true. Many parents who want to children to achieve the sorts of results private schools boast of (see above) , break their backs to pay for the education. Trouble is in a number of cases the children are not capable of achieving the results the school wants to see....So at year 10/11 coordinators are responsible for advising students who aren't getting acceptable results that they should go elsewhere. These aren't students who are failing - they just aren't getting C grade averages.

5) There is a cost to driving students to achieve outstanding results Every year our elite schools have student suicides that realistically are caused in part by the school and parent pressure to get excellent results.

Cheers

 

[Judd]

A fascinating read. Thanks, basilio. Just a couple of musing on my part on some of the points you make. As you rightly point out it is a "vexed dinner conversation." Everybody is the expert.

1) State schools do suffer when parents withdraw their children to take them to private schools.

My son loathed being in classes because he was viewed as intelligent. He simply did not want to mix and preferred to be with those he could relate with in discussions. I can appreciate why it is preferable for teachers to have intelligent just didn't really work with this one.

2) Selective state schools are very, very good. .

For sure but they are selective and not all who are able can actually make it there - and if there is no selective in your area, well........

3) Private schools offer scholarships to make the schools look good

Never though of that. Good point. The only one of which I was aware was a music scholarship from a bequest by a former student's estate.

4) (Some) Private schools bump non winners

An actual comment from one of my kids who was in Year 12 at the time about a number of his school colleagues. Grateful for the previous parents in providing wonderful facilities but in a lot of cases, they wasted their money.

5) There is a cost to driving students to achieve outstanding results

Absolutely.

One teacher told me my son's Year 12 group was the first one in five years in which none were on anti-depressants. And in Year 7 an exasperated teacher stated to me at an interview it was distressing to be asked by some parents what material their child should read so they can become an industrial chemist. One of his mates in year 12 was being pressed hard by his parents. On the quiet I was told the kid would do brilliantly and then move far away or fail completely to get back at his parents. The former occurred and he hasn't been in contact with his parents since.

An excellent, informative read, basilio. Thanks again.

 

[DocK]

It appears we are all in agreement that it's a contentious issue, and likely to remain so for some time to come. Our closest friends and ourselves are split 50/50 - two couples sending their kids to private schools in Brisbane and Gold Coast, and two couples sending their kids to state schools in Toowoomba and Gold Coast. Ironically, one of the couples whose older daughter went through the state system is having her uni fees paid by her parents, whereas our oldest who attended private school from prep is funding his uni fees via hecs. We've often had the public/private school debate - generally resulting in an agreement to disagree. Personally, I don't think there's any clear right or wrong answer as it depends upon what schools are available to you, how much financial hardship can be tolerated and the needs of the individual child. Some children will flourish no matter where they go, but some need that extra something that some private schools can provide. Friends of ours had a daughter do very well in the state system, but their son has fallen through the cracks and is underperforming and lacks any motivation. Would a different school have made a difference? - it's very hard to say one way or the other. My nieces went to a catholic school in Adelaide and were bored, showed little ambition and were beginning to head down a worrying path. Their parents enrolled them into a private school with an excellent reputation, at a much higher cost, and the difference in their outlooks, behaviour and general self-esteem and aspirations in life has been remarkable.

1) State schools do suffer when parents withdraw their children to take them to private schools.

This is undoubtedly true. I've often heard teachers say that children learn as much from class discussions as from the teacher, and having "higher order thinkers" to lead group discussions can be invaluable. I've no doubt that when the higher performing children are taken out of the public system, the remaining children lose the ability to learn from peers. If I were the mother of one of the remaining children I would feel resentful, no doubt. But if I were the mother of the high performer who felt the school was not meeting his needs, and a private school would, then I'm unlikely to put the needs of other people's children before those of my own. That may not be a palatable fact, it may not be community-minded, public-spirited or laudable in any way - but most parents are pretty single-minded when making choices for their children - they want to give them the best opportunities they can. If leaving your child in a state school is better for the school, but will hold back your child, it's a no-brainer for me.

2) Selective state schools are very, very good. .

Absolutely. And if you're lucky enough to live in the region of one it would probably be a waste of money to go private instead. Sadly, the very word "selective" underlines the fact that this is the exception, rather than the rule. It's no surprise to me that often the state schools in regional areas are far superior to those in metropolitan areas - probably because there are far fewer options for parents and the mix of children is more representative of general society. See no 1) above.

3) Private schools offer scholarships to make the schools look good

Of course they do - it's sound business sense. It also gives an opportunity to children whose parents would not otherwise be able to send them to a private school, so although it's good for future enrolments, it's also giving back to the community in a way. Is it fair? - well I guess that depends upon your own personal bias. There are quite a few state schools that will poach kids due to their sporting or academic or musical ability too.

4) (Some) Private schools bump non winners

Sadly, this is also true. My child's school will strongly persuade lower performing students to do a tertiary ranking, rather than an OP score. (Qld system, not sure what the equivalent is in other states. Stupid that it's not a national system, but that's a whole other topic....) Generally this is also in the child's best interest. Naturally, when advertising their academic success rates the school only publishes the % of OP eligible students that outperform the state average etc, rather than the % of the entire student body, so you could say that their records are somewhat artfully manipulated. I'm aware though that some private schools will "invite you to leave", which I think is very poor form if based only on academic non-performance.

5) There is a cost to driving students to achieve outstanding results

Absolutely. Again, this is where parenting skills can make such a difference - there's no one-size-fits-all recipe for getting your child through school with the best outcome for them, and I don't mean just the best academic outcome. A good school will also help shape strong ethics, morals, character and community spirit. Some schools push their students too hard, no doubt. As do some parents. Some students need a bit of a push, some are already pushing themselves too hard and extra "motivation" from the school can tip them over the edge. If you're lucky, your school ensures its teachers have a very sound knowledge of the individual students and will tailor their approach on that basis. Tutor groups and a strong school spirit and cohesive year-group cohort greatly help in this area. I was so impressed by the level of caring, support and encouragement shown by the students for each other in my son's year 12 group last year. I never thought I'd have much good to say about Facebook, but the kids really did seem to use it to great effect.

To get back to the original title of the thread - it's probably true that all parents, not just "middle-class" ones, should choose public schools to improve equity - but until parents can see equity in the outcomes for their children I just can't see that happening any time soon. In some areas the gap between the two systems is pronounced and while it remains so parents will vote with their feet.

 

[sptrawler]

Great summation Dock.

 

[DocK]

Great summation Dock.

Thanks sptrawler.

 

[Julia]

Great summation Dock.

+1. Intelligent, realistic and perceptive post.

 

[DocK]

+1. Intelligent, realistic and perceptive post.

Thank you, Julia. A bit wordy, but it's a subject quite a few struggle with.

 

[Judd]

Yes, a well written viewpoint, DocK.

The one thing I would add is I gave my children the opportunity to move schools at any point up to the commencement of Year 12, and preferably before Year 11, if they preferred to do so. I would have moved them in a blink of an eye (do you think I am crazy enough to like spending $20k pa?)

Didn't care if it was to a public school, provided they were able to get into that school. One did consider it due to the program (IB) which was available but the school she attended introduced it, so she stayed where she was and participated in that program. Damn, there went my $20k pa.