Home Insulation Debacle

[banco]

It appears that Garrett had written to Rudd on 4 separate occasions outlining the risks and his concerns. He could have stopped the program or resigned, same thing I suppose, either way he would not have remained Minister. It is Rudd's responses to Garrett's letters that would be the real interesting part.

Cheers
Country Lad

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rudd's advisers ensured they never reached him. Kind of like Howard and children overboard.

 

[sptrawler]

I think we did mention, that if Rudd got back to PM, it would be slammed as 'Batt man returns'.

Saw him tonight on the news in Indonesia, telling everyone they can catch him on Kevin Rudd at twit er.

 

[noco]

If Rudd ignored 10 warnings of the dangers involved with this scheme, then he should show some decency and compensate the loved ones of those who lost their lives due to his stubborness. Rudd has blood on his dirty grubby hands.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h-says-coalition/story-fn59niix-1226674700421

 

[Some Dude]

If Rudd ignored 10 warnings of the dangers involved with this scheme, then he should show some decency and compensate the loved ones of those who lost their lives due to his stubborness. Rudd has blood on his dirty grubby hands.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h-says-coalition/story-fn59niix-1226674700421

I love the way you start the sentence with "if" and finish with no doubt without noting the important bits in-between. Have you read the report?

 

[Some Dude]

Looks like it might be the QLD state governments turn also.

The Queensland government must explain why there has been a 15-month delay in making electrical safety switches mandatory on all properties’ power circuits, the chief executive of Master Electricians Australia says.

The Electrical Safety Office recommended in March 2012 that the state government make their installation mandatory, but no action has happened since then, Mr Richards said.

Malcolm Richards, CEO Master Electricians Association outside Brisbane's Magistrates Court. On Thursday, State Coroner Michael Barnes also recommended "the matter be actioned as a matter of urgency".

 

[sptrawler]

Looks like it might be the QLD state governments turn also.

It's about time.

Laws are enacted which make the average person culpable, even if it wasn't intentional.
Yet politicians can just say "$hit I stuffed up, sorry" and suffer no recourse. Rudd epitomises it.IMO

Gillard, has waved and exited stage right, before the poo hits the fan. Un bloody believable.

 

[noco]

I love the way you start the sentence with "if" and finish with no doubt without noting the important bits in-between. Have you read the report?

Yes I have and it is pretty clear where the buck stops and it is also clear it is with Rudd.

 

[Some Dude]

Yes I have and it is pretty clear where the buck stops and it is also clear it is with Rudd.

Do you mean clear cut in the sense that the buck stopped with the Howard government for the rise in construction worker deaths (~50) from 2005 when they ignored both unions and the Australian Industry Group (Section 3.39) about safety issues.

Or do you mean in a more direct sense? if so then could you cite the report page and paragraph please?

 

[Calliope]

Dude's view of Labor;

 

[Some Dude]

Dude's view of Labor;

You got me, your awe inspiring cliches are too powerful for my mere reading and caring about the veracity of what I say.

 

[sptrawler]

Do you mean clear cut in the sense that the buck stopped with the Howard government for the rise in construction worker deaths (~50) from 2005 when they ignored both unions and the Australian Industry Group (Section 3.39) about safety issues.

Or do you mean in a more direct sense? if so then could you cite the report page and paragraph please?

So that analogy in some weird way is meant to be representive of the Batt debacle.

I think this will blow up exponentionaly, as from memory a lot of people associated with the the 'batts' may be found'with their pants down'.
I just noticed when reading articles ,at the time, how a lot of company directors had familiar names.lol

We will sit back and see what unfolds, I think Labor are a bit like the squirel in the 'Ice Age' movies.lol

 

[noco]

Do you mean clear cut in the sense that the buck stopped with the Howard government for the rise in construction worker deaths (~50) from 2005 when they ignored both unions and the Australian Industry Group (Section 3.39) about safety issues.

Or do you mean in a more direct sense? if so then could you cite the report page and paragraph please?

Page 7 Courier Mail dated Friday 05/07/2013.

 

[Some Dude]

So that analogy in some weird way is meant to be representive of the Batt debacle.

The response illuminates what people are really focusing on i.e. worker deaths or politics. People genuinely interested in worker deaths should look at the stats, they may not like what they see. None of this negates what I have already said.

Kevin et al very definitely made mistakes in that program but the mistakes were made up and down the line and in that way that disasters happen when everyone thinks someone else is taking care of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Page 7 Courier Mail dated Friday 05/07/2013.

My bad I meant have you read the coroner's report?

 

[Calliope]

You got me, your awe inspiring cliches are too powerful for my mere reading and caring about the veracity of what I say.

:screwy:

 

[Some Dude]

:screwy:

I haven't reached shopping centre wisdom yet

 

[Calliope]

I haven't reached shopping centre wisdom yet

Obviously. Don't worry about it Dude. Wisdom will come with maturity.

 

[IFocus]

Haven't read the report or previous pages(apologies).

Federal Labor will own the pink batt deaths politically.

In Law and practice its quite simple but different (WA)

The employee is responsible for following the rules and work practices.

The supervisor on the job is responsible for the training / qualifications and safety conditions (environment / safety equipment etc.)of the workers.

The company employing them for providing all of the above and more.

The state government (not federal government) is responsible for the act that covers workers safety, practaces and standards set and used along with policing etc.

Putting tin foil into a roof space is a state responsibility. Ask any electrician and they will reply its insanity. How any state government could have allowed to happened is beyond me.
You could do it safely but would need to bond all conductive material to earth (relatively expensive and not practical)

As alluded to before having the lighting and power points covered by ELCB's would cover most scenarios but not completely all as there could still be some electrical circuits that can exist with out.

 

[Smurf1976]

"TP" is what they used to write on the board when looking at the risk of something going wrong with a project.

You'd have all the "serious" risks like a contract not being let on time, insufficient funds, paperwork not being ready and so on. And there it would be shoved in at the bottom - TP. That's "Technical Problems" by the way.

That's what used to go on when I worked in the public service as such, and I'm assured that it still does. It is both a consequence of, and a driver for, outsourcing. Bureaucrats tend to see the major risks as being in the office, on the basis that they have a contractor doing the actual work and, if it all goes to crap, they can always take legal action against the contractor. Hence the outsourcing of practically all physical work, even though the cost is very much higher than it used to be back in the days of government construction and main roads departments etc.

It is now coming to the point where technical knowledge has almost completely been removed from key departments in many cases. You have "Project Managers" and "Administrators" but nobody who really understands what they are actually managing or administering. Hence external consultants effectively run the place, charging $300 per person per hour to do so. This is to the point that consultants can do the exact opposite of department / government policy if they so choose, simply because those administering the contracts lack technical understanding of what is actually being done.

We live in a society underpinned by science and technology. And yet government has chosen to virtually rid itself of anyone with scientific or technical knowledge and rely instead on consultants. The trouble is, there's not much use relying on a consultant if (1) you can't afford to pay enough of them at $300 per hour to do the job and (2) there's nobody left in the department who understands what the consultants are saying anyway.

It's like getting an x-ray done. Unless it's something obvious, then you need a properly trained Doctor to look at the x-ray, comprehend what it really means, and work out what to do about it. Government has outsourced technical knowledge to the point where it can no longer do this effectively in all manner of fields.

So there's the underlying problem. Depending on expertise from people who may well not have any practical knowledge in the first place (only theory), who are being paid a huge hourly sum which limits their available time, and when nobody understands what they are saying anyway.

Needless to say, many conflicts of interest arise in all of this. The words "license to print money" come to mind.

Been there, seen it first hand, and it was the primary thing I didn't like about working in the public service. The work ethic amongst technical staff wasn't anywhere near as bad as the stereotype, but managers simply didn't see a need to have technical knowledge in the first place. Even having a skilled manual worker on staff has a value, they will point out all sorts of things if asked, but the PS doesn't seem to see it this way.

If there had been an electrician involved then we'd never have had this insulation fiasco. For that matter, it would have rung some serious alarm bells for plenty of other trades too. Likewise anyone who has dealt with "cowboy" type contractors would have sounded the alarm also. Trouble is, you'll never spot the problems if you're a career bureaucrat relying on external advice from people who haven't actually been in a roof.

Sadly, there are many more examples where this happens, it's just that most are fixed by throwing money at them without actually killing anyone. It's still a waste of taxpayers' funds however.

I'm not arguing that we ought to nationalise everything or something like that, but there needs to be a balance. If you really want to understand something properly then you need to be actively involved in it. In other words, outsourcing has gone too far and it's time to get some technical people, trades, engineers and the like back into the public service. You need them to be doing actual, proper work on a day to day basis but then you have a sound base on which to draw when technical advice is needed in relation to policy matters.

It's sad to see the mistakes being made in recent times over things like water, energy, road construction, the NBN and so on which all could have been avoided if engineers and other technical people were running these things and driving the decision making process. What we are doing now, is costing us a fortune and sending Australia backwards where this need not be the case.

Rant over.

 

[sptrawler]

Smurph, I can't believe how people with dubious ability are flipping from project to project, for mega bucks.
Just my opinion.

 

[trainspotter]

How can we sleep while our batts are burning

FORMER Labor government minister Peter Garrett has been granted leave to appear at the royal commission into the botched insulation scheme.
Mr Garrett, a former environment minister who retired from politics in 2013, played a key role in rolling out the economic stimulus scheme.
The inquiry, under commissioner Ian Hanger QC, is seeking new light on the deaths of four workers involved in the insulation scheme and what warnings were given to the Rudd government.
The commission confirmed on its website that Mr Garrett had been granted leave to appear and have legal representation, along with the federal and Queensland governments and family members of the dead men.

http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...n-scheme-inquiry/story-e6frfku9-1226847055241