NBN Rollout Scrapped

[sydboy007]

I can only find some small excerpts from the April 19 Senate Estimates Committee hearing (why do Govs make it so hard to access public domain info), but from the small amount I've read on some blogs it does seem MT does not have the understanding required of a Mr Broadband

Mr Turnbull: To Mr McLaren! You would be aware that about 34 percent of the premises to be covered by the fixed line footprint of the NBN Co’s plan are multidwelling units!

Turns out only a very small amount of that 34% is what most people would call MDUs - the majority in there are town houses and villas.

Next to show his lack of understanding

Turnbull to Quigley
If you were to do a portion of the brownfields rollout with what is called fibre to the node – but we are talking about a vectored VDSL solution!

Mr Quigley: – No we have not. In fact, not only should we not do that, for the reasons that Mr Harris articulated before, but we just do not have enough information to do that, because it takes a fair number of assumptions.

There are some big questions in there about the copper remediation. For example, there is a big question of who is going to pay for the costs of the copper that would need to be remediated to remove bridge taps and fix joints if such an approach were taken. So there are half a dozen very meaty issues that would need to be resolved before we could analyse that in any detail!

MT has definitely not attempted to answer these questions.

To put some perspective on this issue, the company I work for has around 100K of Telstra ULLs (Telstra copper without a dial tone), along with a significant amount of Telstra Wholesale ADSL.

In any month the failure rate of this copper is 0.5% to 1% (admittedly failure can mean totally down to just unstable or errors slowing things down). The wide variation is usually due to local weather - ie when it rains the level of faults jumps significantly. I'm lucky I deal in the corporate faults as it's much easier to get a decent Telstra tech assigned. In the consumer space it seems faults can last for weeks before being resolved.

I'd estimate 15% of the corporate faults require multiple visits by a field tech.

So I do worry about how the copper will be tested and what criteria will be used to determine if you keep it or it gets replaced.

 

[drsmith]

A single disgruntled subcontractor or a further sign of broader rollout problems,

The failure of those major contractors - or "tier-one" contractors - to pass on the benefits of the scheme has meant many subcontractors are refusing to sign up to the NBN, while the ones that do are often far less experienced.

The lower-quality work being delivered by some less experienced subcontractors, which often needs to be rectified, and the lack of interest from subcontractors have been blamed for the delays in the rollout of the $37.4 billion network.

One telecommunications subcontractor, who declined to be named because he had signed confidentiality clauses, said an NBN Co construction partner was charging the federal government about $106 a metre for drilling, but offering subcontractors about $38 a metre.

"High gross margins are being gouged out by the big companies and are the main contributing reason for the rollout issues for the NBN," the subcontractor said.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...d-for-nbn-delays/story-e6frgaif-1226631161161

 

[Calliope]

It's BER rip-off all over again.

DRILLING contractors Helen and Ian Murdoch have no desire to sign up for work with the National Broadband Network.

The rates offered are not even enough to cover costs.

While the federal government is paying top dollar to roll out the scheme, the handful of major contractors it has engaged are pocketing vast sums and refusing to pass on the benefits to the mum-and-dad contractors on the ground.

The failure of those companies to fully compensate sub-contractors is a key reason why the NBN rollout is behind schedule, with major contractors revising down construction estimates as they struggle to find workers.

Ms Murdoch said the going market rate for drilling pits - the trenches in which the NBN fibre cable is installed - is 40 per cent higher than that being offered by major NBN contractors. "Some people are pretty desperate for work so they're doing it but there's not enough money in it to even cover your overheads," Ms Murdoch said. "People are going to go broke. People are going to owe employees and suppliers all over the place."

She likened problems with subcontracting in the NBN to previous cases of government mismanagement, which included the Building the Education Revolution, which was plagued by over-charging of management fees by the major companies empowered to implement the $16.2 billion scheme, and the pink batts scheme, which was suddenly cancelled, leaving insulation installers stuck with large quantities of batts they had stockpiled in the expectation of extra work.

"It's going to be a vicious cycle," Ms Murdoch said.

(My bolds)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-cover-our-costs/story-e6frgaif-1226630368996

 

[NBNMyths]

A single disgruntled subcontractor or a further sign of broader rollout problems,



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...d-for-nbn-delays/story-e6frgaif-1226631161161

It's BER rip-off all over again.

(My bolds)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-cover-our-costs/story-e6frgaif-1226630368996

You blokes are funny. Seems the NBN can't win: They're either paying too much, or not enough! You all cry for the free market, but if the "free market" means subbies aren't making enough money then the free market is broken.

Subbie work is supply and demand. If the NBN contractors aren't paying enough, then they won't get anyone to do it and they'll have to pay more. But while there are companies doing it for the offered rates, that's what the rates will be.

It's not just Govt work. I had a client that used to pay me $x for a photo job. Last year, they cut the rate to 1/2 $x. I knocked them back, and lost work for 3 months. Then they rang me back and offered 3/4 $x. Now I'm working for them again. Such is subcontract work.


Could it be that there are a few contractors out there who are finding that NBN work isn't the normal "take a regular price and double it for a Govt contract" that they were hoping for?

 

[moXJO]

You blokes are funny. Seems the NBN can't win: They're either paying too much, or not enough! You all cry for the free market, but if the "free market" means subbies aren't making enough money then the free market is broken.

Subbie work is supply and demand. If the NBN contractors aren't paying enough, then they won't get anyone to do it and they'll have to pay more. But while there are companies doing it for the offered rates, that's what the rates will be.

It's not just Govt work. I had a client that used to pay me $x for a photo job. Last year, they cut the rate to 1/2 $x. I knocked them back, and lost work for 3 months. Then they rang me back and offered 3/4 $x. Now I'm working for them again. Such is subcontract work.


Could it be that there are a few contractors out there who are finding that NBN work isn't the normal "take a regular price and double it for a Govt contract" that they were hoping for?

Subbies get screwed by the main contractors. While the big builders that were in with the unions made millions. BER contracts were a joke and they ruined a lot of young subbies.

 

[Calliope]

Subbies get screwed by the main contractors. While the big builders that were in with the unions made millions. BER contracts were a joke and they ruined a lot of young subbies.

Yes. The subbies get screwed by the main contractors. The main contractors screw NBN Co. NBN Co screws the taxpayer.

The screwed subbies are doing inferior sub-standard work.

The trail leads back to Quigley and Kaiser...Quigley who has had no experience with large scale telecommunications roll-outs and Kaiser who is a failure at quality control.

 

[NBNMyths]

Yes. The subbies get screwed by the main contractors. The main contractors screw NBN Co. NBN Co screws the taxpayer.

The screwed subbies are doing inferior sub-standard work.

The trail leads back to Quigley and Kaiser...Quigley who has had no experience with large scale telecommunications roll-outs and Kaiser who is a failure at quality control.

So you expect that things will change under the coalition's NBN then? There are only three possible outcomes:

1. Things stay the same.

2. Main contractors pay subbies more, and charge NBN Co more to maintain their margin.

3. The main contractors pay subbies more, and reduce their margins so charge NBN Co the same rates.

So, pray tell, which will be the outcome under the Coalition do you think?


I'd be betting on #1 or #2. I'd suggest #3 is about as likely as the Coalition delivering on their promise of min25Mbps to everyone by the end of 2016....

 

[Calliope]

So, pray tell,

"So, pray tell". Hey that's cute.

which will be the outcome under the Coalition do you think?

:dunno: Value for money perhaps?

 

[NBNMyths]

"So, pray tell". Hey that's cute.



:dunno: Value for money perhaps?

So explain which of the three possibilities you think will happen to achieve that.

Will they pay the main contractors less? And if so, how do you think the main contractors will be willing/able to pay the subcontractors more money?

Will they pay the main contractors the same amount (and therefore not save any money), but insist that the main contractors reduce their margins and pay the subbies more? If so, by what mechanism?

Or will they pay the main contractors more, and insist they pass that additional income onto the subbies? If so, by what mechanism?


One-liners may serve Tony Abbott well in opposition, but just like him, when you're pressed for details on how to achieve your contradictory panacea, you are unable to do so.


So far, we've had the opposition claim the NBN pricing is too high, and also too low...

They've complained the rollout is too expensive, but that they aren't paying well enough...

They've complained the rollout is too slow, but also that it's being rushed...

We've had Coalition pollies complaining that the NBN isn't needed, but then demanding their electorates get it first...

We've had them say that the entire NBN sat programme isn't needed. But now they're complaining that the NBN interim sat service (that they didn't want) will run out before the new sats (that they also didn't want) are launched, so new connections will have to go to the market (their 2010 policy anyway) for a year or so...


There seems to be a pattern developing.

 

[Calliope]

So explain which of the three possibilities you think will happen to achieve that.

You worry too much. Your problem is that you put your faith in Conroy. I will back Turnbull against Conroy on achieving value for money on broadband roll-out...a business man versus a union hack.

 

[Aussiejeff]

You worry too much. Your problem is that you put your faith in Conroy. I will back Turnbull against Conroy on achieving value for money on broadband roll-out...a business man versus a union hack.

That last part might have read better if you had said "gormless union hack"?

 

[NBNMyths]

You worry too much. Your problem is that you put your faith in Conroy. I will back Turnbull against Conroy on achieving value for money on broadband roll-out...a business man versus a union hack.

Uhhuh. Details, schmetails.

You remind me of that epitome of conservative politics and integrity.

"Now...now...now... Don't you worry about that"

 

[Calliope]

Uhhuh. Details, schmetails.

You remind me of that epitome of conservative politics and integrity.

"Now...now...now... Don't you worry about that"

Here are the "details schmetails" of who is pulling the strings of the union puppets like Shorten and Combet and the man you have faith in... Conroy. However, if you want to worry about Labor's NBN ballsups...be my guest.

And by the way who is the epitome of Labor politics and bastardry? Your beloved Julia. of course.

 

[NBNMyths]

Here are the "details schmetails" of who is pulling the strings of the union puppets like Shorten and Combet and the man you have faith in...

View attachment 51967

I'm a little confused. Is it a Bad Thing that representative organisations of working-class Australians are donating to a political party?

Why?

And more so, why is it worse than big business pulling the strings of the Coalition?
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.....aspx?SubmissionID=48&ClientID=6&ClientTyCo=P
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/Returns/49/PQDN1.pdf
http://www.ashaust.org.au/lv4/Lv4action_politicaldons.htm

In 2010/11 alone, one Queensland-based mining company donated $460,000 to the Liberal party. I wonder what they'll want for their money?
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/Returns/48/OWOT7.pdf

 

[Calliope]

I'm a little confused.

More than a little I would say.

Is it a Bad Thing that representative organisations of working-class Australians are donating to a political party?

Union membership covers only 13% of private sector employees, so they are not representative of "working-class Australians". It is interesting that the money is being donated by the union bosses and not the members. It is a bad thing, and typically Labor, that these huge sums of workers' money are being shoveled into a lost cause without any consultation.

The main reason is so that the militant unions can demand favorable treatment from a union dominated government.

 

[sptrawler]

More than a little I would say.


Union membership covers only 13% of private sector employees, so they are not representative of "working-class Australians". It is interesting that the money is being donated by the union bosses and not the members. It is a bad thing, and typically Labor, that these huge sums of workers' money are being shoveled into a lost cause without any consultation.

The main reason is so that the militant unions can demand favorable treatment from a union dominated government.

Well said, the unions need to excise themselves from the Labor party and start another political party.

NBNMyths, has been a great source of accurate information and I hope he continues to critique the NBN, on our forum, after the election.

Also I hope we are as critical of the opposition if they don't deliver.

 

[NBNMyths]

More than a little I would say.


Union membership covers only 13% of private sector employees, so they are not representative of "working-class Australians". It is interesting that the money is being donated by the union bosses and not the members. It is a bad thing, and typically Labor, that these huge sums of workers' money are being shoveled into a lost cause without any consultation.

The main reason is so that the militant unions can demand favorable treatment from a union dominated government.

No consultation, huh? So union members have no say on how their funds are spent? And they have no option to cancel their membership if they disagree with how it's spent? Do they have more or less say than the shareholders of a public company that donates to a political party?


Here's a couple more questions that spring to mind:

1) If unions donate to get favourable treatment for their workers, why do you think corporations donate? Just from the goodness in their hearts?

2) In your mind it's OK for a mining company to donate to a political party, but not OK for the representative organisation of the employees of that mining company (ie: the CFMEU) to donate to the "other" political party? Please explain.

 

[Calliope]

No consultation, huh? So union members have no say on how their funds are spent? And they have no option to cancel their membership if they disagree with how it's spent? Do they have more or less say than the shareholders of a public company that donates to a political party?

Much less I would say. The shareholders own the company. The unions are just parasites on their members. That's why membership is dropping off so rapidly. They are not as rusted on Labor as you are.

Here's a couple more questions that spring to mind:

1) If unions donate to get favourable treatment for their workers, why do you think corporations donate? Just from the goodness in their hearts?

No. It's to get rid of the worst Labor government we have ever had.:

2) In your mind it's OK for a mining company to donate to a political party, but not OK for the representative organisation of the employees of that mining company (ie: the CFMEU) to donate to the "other" political party? Please explain.

Because one wants to keep a corrupt union dominated government in power and the other wants to save the country from further ballsups and black holes.

Any more silly questions?

 

[bellenuit]

And they have no option to cancel their membership if they disagree with how it's spent?

I know many guys in the building industry around Perth and when it comes to union dominated sites, they have no choice but to be in the union. Technically they don't have to be, but unless they have no fear of a hammer falling on their head, then that is how it works. So in many cases, yes they can cancel their membership. But doing so means they are make themselves unemployable on all union dominated sites.

Myths, though I have disagreed with you many times in the past, I have always respected your technical knowledge, from which I have learned quite a bit. I'm not the one for name calling, so I have always taking you at face value - you are here to dispel myths about the NBN, not to play partisan politics.

However, in the last month or so I think you are adopting a very partisan stance. Very unlike you and making me question the independence of some of the data you produce, which I personally can't verify.

 

[medicowallet]

However, in the last month or so I think you are adopting a very partisan stance. Very unlike you and making me question the independence of some of the data you produce, which I personally can't verify.

I guess it has got to be hard knowing that your puppy is being replaced by a kitten.
I remember having a tanty as a little tot when this happened to me.
I don't think it would happen to me nowadays.

MW