Sir John Howard

[sptrawler]

The three sectors (public/private/external) need to balance to zero. It is impossible to have a government sector that is a net saver have the economy running a CAD, and have the private sector as a net saver. This isn't theory it's accounting fact. You sum the government surplus and the CAD together and you get the net negative savings amount of the private sector. So all that happened was the debt was transferred from the public to private sector. The end result being an overindebted household sector. If you want to, have a look at how unindebted households are in countries like Italy and Greece, in that instance the government paid for the CAD not the private sector. The result is more or less the same, it's just who has the debt at the end of the party.

Also wasn't it Costello that said the government is running a surplus and needs to reduce the personal tax levels.
How the public reaportions that increase in disposable income is to a degree their resposibility. Isn't it?

 

[sptrawler]

I get a bit fed up with hearing the overidebted household sector is a Government problem. People want to be treated as adults when they take on a loan, yet want to be treated as a victim when they overpay for the house or investment property.
It wasn't that long ago that the avrerage family car was worth one third the cost of the family house.
Now we have the situation where the house is worth ten to fifteen times the famiy car. Yet they are still the two major expenses.
The only difference is the house became a pyramid scheme, which always ends in the same manner.
Now everyone is looking for someone to blame for personal greed and as per usual the gov is an easy target. Rather than take responsibility.

 

[Julia]

I get a bit fed up with hearing the overidebted household sector is a Government problem. People want to be treated as adults when they take on a loan, yet want to be treated as a victim when they overpay for the house or investment property.
It wasn't that long ago that the avrerage family car was worth one third the cost of the family house.
Now we have the situation where the house is worth ten to fifteen times the famiy car. Yet they are still the two major expenses.
The only difference is the house became a pyramid scheme, which always ends in the same manner.
Now everyone is looking for someone to blame for personal greed and as per usual the gov is an easy target. Rather than take responsibility.

+1 x 10.

 

[McLovin]

Also wasn't it Costello that said the government is running a surplus and needs to reduce the personal tax levels.
How the public reaportions that increase in disposable income is to a degree their resposibility. Isn't it?

How does that change my point which you called the "biggest crock you had heard in a long time"?

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, it seems that the government running a surplus and doing nothing to address the decades old problem of Australia's CAD left the household sector massively indebted.

 

[McLovin]

I get a bit fed up with hearing the overidebted household sector is a Government problem. People want to be treated as adults when they take on a loan, yet want to be treated as a victim when they overpay for the house or investment property.
It wasn't that long ago that the avrerage family car was worth one third the cost of the family house.
Now we have the situation where the house is worth ten to fifteen times the famiy car. Yet they are still the two major expenses.
The only difference is the house became a pyramid scheme, which always ends in the same manner.
Now everyone is looking for someone to blame for personal greed and as per usual the gov is an easy target. Rather than take responsibility.

The CAD's relationship with the household sector has nothing to do with buying overpriced property and everything to do with having to use debt to pay for Australia's imports.

 

[sptrawler]

How does that change my point which you called the "biggest crock you had heard in a long time"?

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, it seems that the government running a surplus and doing nothing to address the decades old problem of Australia's CAD left the household sector massively indebted.

Well then to your reasoning the current government must be achieving miracles, they aren't running surpluses, the CAD will increase due to increased taxes and unemployment is increasing as companies shut down.
Yet you refer to the years from 1997 - 2007

 

[cynic]

John Howard has always behaved with decorum.

GG, this is one of those rare occasions when I find myself in partial disagreement with one of your posts.

There's no question in my mind that the LNP coalition was effective at getting the Australian economy back on the tracks during his period of leadership, but, in the end, little Johnny did a great disservice to both Australia, and his own party, by failing to acknowledge that it was time to stand down and surrender the reigns of leadership to someone more palatable.

When the LNP lost to their opposition, much of the good work that had previously been done, was promptly undone. I do not have a specific grudge against the LNP - but I detest little Johnny for allowing his vanity to override the better interests of Australia and her citizens.

The farcical performance of our current (non)government is pretty much what I would have expected from any leftwing prosocialism/anticapitalism government. I consider the rise to power of this (non)government to be largley attributable to the failure of John Howard to surrender his leadership when it first became glaringly apparent that he'd passed his "best before date".

Shame on you Johnny! Shame,shame shame.

 

[McLovin]

Well then to your reasoning the current government must be achieving miracles, they aren't running surpluses, the CAD will increase due to increased taxes and unemployment is increasing as companies shut down.

Huh?

 

[sptrawler]

The CAD's relationship with the household sector has nothing to do with buying overpriced property and everything to do with having to use debt to pay for Australia's imports.

CAD as far as I am aware is imports in relation to exports. If you are producing sod all and buying everything you have a problem. Then pay stupid prices for a house all becomes household debt. Still the net result is personal debt or company debt don't try and mix the two.
Australian imports still contain company expenses, which in mining and resources are huge.

 

[McLovin]

CAD as far as I am aware is imports in relation to exports. If you are producing sod all and buying everything you have a problem. Then pay stupid prices for a house all becomes household debt. Still the net result is personal debt or company debt don't try and mix the two.
Australian imports still contain company expenses, which in mining and resources are huge.

No, now you're just confusing the current and capital accounts (they have to balance as well!).

Anyway, I've said what I needed to. Believe what you want.

 

[Ves]

I would too, go research if you doubt.

gg is a respected authority in here and has to justify nothing.

Who said anything about justification?


Thanks for the reply by the way GG, I will have a read of the doco.

 

[sptrawler]

O.K lets go back to your original statement that the gov from 1997 - 2007 caused the CAD problems resulting in household debt problems.
Maybe in your answer you can explain how blowing out gov debt as is currently happening and increasing personal and broad based tax is an improvement?
Also could throw in how does making net exporters become net importers help. eg solar panel manufacturer?

 

[McLovin]

O.K lets go back to your original statement that the gov from 1997 - 2007 caused the CAD problems resulting in household debt problems.

I didn't say they caused the CAD problems, they have been around since the 70's. I pointed out the relationship between the Pitchford thesis and the current level of household debt. Do you disagree that the relationship exists?

Maybe in your answer you can explain how blowing out gov debt as is currently happening and increasing personal and broad based tax is an improvement?
Also could throw in how does making net exporters become net importers help. eg solar panel manufacturer?

This is completely non sequitir. I'm not quite sure if you're somehow trying to paint me as an apologist for the current government, something I am certainly not.

 

[Ves]

Australia has a massive CAD deficit because Australian corporations are heavily owned by foreign investors (as is a lot of our property and farm land). Massive amounts of interest and dividend payments flow out of the country which affects the CAD. Doesn't matter that we sell more rocks to foreigners than ever before. In layman's terms we owe them a ****load of money. To maintain growth (in private sector business and housing sector) we had to borrow a heap of money from overseas because we were not capable of generating these funds ourselves. If the government doesn't borrow this money, who do you think has to? I mean they could always not borrow it and the economy would be at a stand still I guess.

 

[sptrawler]

I didn't say they caused the CAD problems, they have been around since the 70's. I pointed out the relationship between the Pitchford thesis and the current level of household debt. Do you disagree that the relationship exists?



This is completely non sequitir. I'm not quite sure if you're somehow trying to paint me as an apologist for the current government, something I am certainly not.

Well then why make the pointed reference to the 1997 to 2007 years if the problem is intergenerational and not government specific. Other than for antagonistic reasons?

 

[McLovin]

Well then why make the pointed reference to the 1997 to 2007 years if the problem is intergenerational and not government specific. Other than for antagonistic reasons?

I'll give you a hint, it's related to the thread title.

 

[sptrawler]

I'll give you a hint, they started with a labor debt of $90billion of useless debt. The next government is going to start with a labor debt of $300billion of useless debt.
Then you will be saying the same thing again, when you throw them out after the get out of debt.LOL

 

[McLovin]

I'll give you a hint, they started with a labor debt of $90billion of useless debt.

And household debt that was 50% of GDP. By the time they finished household debt was 150% of GDP but the government was debt free. All things being equal what do you think happened? Is it that hard to understand That's been the only point I've been trying to make despite your numerious attempts at creating strawman arguments.

Goodnight.

 

[rumpole]

The farcical performance of our current (non)government is pretty much what I would have expected from any leftwing prosocialism/anticapitalism government.

Which party knocked back a tax cut for business and is trying to impose more expense on them with a paid parental leave scheme ?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

John Howard believed in Australians, and in their ability to be their best if left to work and raise their families, in peace and prosperity, with secure borders and a chance to work to their full ability. He provided stability and opportunity for all Australians willing to work.

The mob of Socialists in power at present believe they know what is best for Australians, and despite the evidence of polls, inflict their aged Fabian diktat on a suffering populace. When the "intellectual elite", and I use the word intellectual guardedly, get in to strife they throw bread at the vulnerable, who would prefer to have the dignity and opportunity that goes with proper jobs.

gg