Importing Migrant Workers

[numbercruncher]

The big fuss is all just hot air driven by Doug Cameron. It is obvious that the Rinehaters are in the Cameron camp, i.e. the losers.

I repeat from a previous post;

In parliament, Mr Bowen, Wayne Swan, Resources Minister Martin Ferguson and Ms Gillard defended the Roy Hill EMA."This project is vital for Australia's future, and this agreement is vital for delivering it," Mr Bowen said.

End of story.

Five minutes ago by implication of your response one would have to belive you hate the Labor Government now your using what that very Government that you detest said as the core of your pro Rinehart stance ....

You can do better Calliope !!!

 

[Calliope]

Five minutes ago by implication of your response one would have to belive you hate the Labor Government now your using what that very Government that you detest said as the core of your pro Rinehart stance ....

You can do better Calliope !!!

No need to. Your leaders reject your argument.

 

[Calliope]

Paul Howes can't take a trick. Now she wants to dig up coal where there are no workers.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Could you expand on this?

Sure. A lot of constructions workers are losing their jobs, especially around Melbourne because of their mammoth overbuilding of property. The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!

 

[moXJO]

Sure. A lot of constructions workers are losing their jobs, especially around Melbourne because of their mammoth overbuilding of property. The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!

Are they finding jobs in this (supposed) low unemployment environment without having to take up the mine work?
I know a few that have got into the mines that were in construction, but mainly local. It's just shifting the skills shortage though.
Govt and business has dropped the ball on education and training.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Govt and business has dropped the ball on education and training.

Couldn't agree more. Crossposting this from another forum because it's a great point.

From thewest website
"Foreigners will need to be able to speak English and typically have the equivalent of Certificate III and three years on-the-job experience.
Among the jobs to be filled include electricians, riggers, fitters and turners, scaffolders, boilermakers and concrete pourers."

A certificate III is only a 12 month course. These projects are planned years in advance. Where was the adverts going out 12 months ago for unskilled people to be trained to this level?
I could possibly understand if this was for engineers as training up an unskilled person at a uni would be very problematic.... but a Cert III??

 

[Calliope]

The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!

Ah! The Siberian solution! Have them move there and keep them there in Gulags.

 

[Julia]

The benefits of the mining boom go to the minority - entire other industries have been wrecked such as Tourism and Manufacturing. Agriculture suffers.

Can you explain exactly the mechanism by which mining activity wrecks both tourism and manufacturing?

We live in a global economy. You actually have no idea what you are on about. Do you even know what communism is? It a society based on no state, class or money where the means of production are collectively owned by the "people". So how the frigging hell is Australia a borderline communist state.

Just because people don't exert their freedoms on a daily basis doesn't mean they don't have it.

The very fact that we are on the internet having this discussion blows what ever rant you have out of the water. If this was China, we would probably be arrested. North Koredoesn'tnt have the internet for FFS. I can go protest peacefully in the street, join a political party of my choosing, have whatever faith I want, raise my children in peace without shells dropping on our heads or for the fear of them being taken away while i amurdereded or butchered for being of the wrong sex, religion, ageethnicityty. There are many areas in the world you cannot do that. Is Australia perfect, not a chance, but then again show me a perfect society.

Do you, so please explain.

Asking for a rational explanation of SCM's rants is an exercise in futility.

Yeah I'm not big on Rinehart, but I think this whole thing blew up after wayne swans class war. Notice how he has kept his mouth shut. I'm wondering if it was some kind of labor distraction.

Of course it was. Anything to divert attention from the Thomson and Slipper debacles. And look how well it's working. Even just on this forum.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Ah! The Siberian solution! Have them move there and keep them there in Gulags.

Gulags? Last I check mining workers get paid a hefty penny.

 

[jank]

A communist society is one without borders or nations where all labour is united. That seems to be very much what you suggest..

Seriously, do you even read what i write? Am I suggesting we collectivise the country? People get paid in wheat and suger? No, they are enumerated by cash which contributes to the economy. Who owns the means of production. Shareholders which anyone can buy into if they have capital. Its called capitalism for a reason.
Nation states exist but businesses can trade without borders in alot of cases but are still held to the legislation of those countries in which it operates in. There is no conspiracy theory here.

But then you will be able to claim said welfare benefits. And healthcare. That's pretty ridiculous. You can't have any immigration unless you have a nation where said immigrations will not be entitled to taxpayer funded services at any point in time in their lives. The simple reason is, other people have been paying taxes for longer than anyone who immigrates here, so it doesn't seem fair that everyone gets equal treatment while having paid a disproportionate amount of tax.

That being said, I don't think tax is far anyway - if we simply downsized the federal government by 99% it would solve all problems...

Of course I cam claim these things, I am a taxpayer. Immigrants are taxpayers too you dope! Why should a person pay tax and then be refused services because they are not a natural born person of that nation state? There is a large waiting period for anyone wanting to work in this country if they want to claim any service. During that time a person who has worked will have made a huge net contribution in taxes to the state. So the period for me is almost 5 years, What should it be? 1,10? never???

So a person who enters the country at 18 or 5 or whatever, works all their lives and retires at 65 is not able to claim anything? LOL, you are a seriously confused person. You need to seriously step away and think about your beliefs and theorys because you are very mixed up. Never met an anti-immigrant socialist libertarian before. There are 3oxymorans in there. 2 is normally impressive but 3 is a record.

How pathetic of an argument are you trying to mount, if you are forced to compare Australia to the worst countries in the world when it comes to freedoms - just to try and make the case that we have some? Thank you for proving my point..

Yada yada blah blah, so Australia isnt all that bad you say but still pretty bad, so what is your ideal country where freedom and liberty is a beacon of light. After all Australia is a quasi communist state, right? We are all slaves but we dont know it, like the Matrix, right?

How about the freedom to do and say as we please, not be the target of government spying, freedom to live without being taxed for things we don't need and for wars we don't support, not have to live in the fear of being labelled a terrorist for some arbitrary reason, have a government that actually cares about it's citizens and protects their freedoms as opposed to selling them out if USA says so.

You have the first part, tell me what is the government doing to stop you doing something or anything as you please? Have you been spied on by the government personally or labbeled a terrorist? What freedom dont you have anymore and please give some concreate examples not some populist, internet rambing nonesense.

Also waiting for your Swiss explanation.

 

[numbercruncher]

Can you explain exactly the mechanism by which mining activity wrecks both tourism and manufacturing?
.

The very high AUD but you knew that already - AUD is a default investment in resources and China - Resources demand nosedives , so will our dollar - well im not a soothsayer , but that is how I would envision it ....

We are kind of victims of our own luck I guess .....

 

[jank]

Sure. A lot of constructions workers are losing their jobs, especially around Melbourne because of their mammoth overbuilding of property. The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!

The trouble is though most people dont want to move themselves and their family to North West Australia. Even if they have the skills (which is a big if)
So, then what? Are you going to forceably move them? Confiscate their property and any equity they have then ship them off to maintin your idealogical position? Just like 1930's Russia eh?

 

[numbercruncher]

This is what the pro Rinehart camp aspire to-

A few of you would for purely selfish reasons like this resut Im thinking ?

 

[numbercruncher]

The trouble is though most people dont want to move themselves and their family to North West Australia. Even if they have the skills (which is a big if)

You simply dont need "most" people - only some !

What skills would Aussie construction workers lack that foreign construction workers have ?

You seem hell bent on discrediting Australian worker abilities and ethics - its a very hollow empty flawed and simply wrong argument. Seen you have raised the point so many times can you provide us with some substance or proof that we as a nation are that unskilled and lazy ?

 

[Julia]

The very high AUD but you knew that already - AUD is a default investment in resources and China - Resources demand nosedives , so will our dollar - well im not a soothsayer , but that is how I would envision it ....

We are kind of victims of our own luck I guess .....

OK, so are you concluding that if demand from China slows significantly and the boom is no longer a boom, the dollar falls, both tourism and manufacturing will therefore recover?

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Seriously, do you even read what i write? Am I suggesting we collectivise the country? People get paid in wheat and suger? No, they are enumerated by cash which contributes to the economy. Who owns the means of production. Shareholders which anyone can buy into if they have capital. Its called capitalism for a reason.

But what you suggest draws from communist ideology. I'm not saying everything in Australia is communist - merely that businesses being able to hire anyone from any country they want is akin to communism.

You can really dismiss any ideology if some things don't conform do how other countries using such ideologies operated in the past. For instance - you can't dismiss USA as a fascist state just because the government does not preach racial purity - given that everything else in the US resembles a fascist state.

Of course I cam claim these things, I am a taxpayer. Immigrants are taxpayers too you dope! Why should a person pay tax and then be refused services because they are not a natural born person of that nation state? There is a large waiting period for anyone wanting to work in this country if they want to claim any service. During that time a person who has worked will have made a huge net contribution in taxes to the state. So the period for me is almost 5 years, What should it be? 1,10? never???

Never is good. Again, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much of a problem if the government did not tax people so much and offer services to everyone.

So a person who enters the country at 18 or 5 or whatever, works all their lives and retires at 65 is not able to claim anything? LOL, you are a seriously confused person. You need to seriously step away and think about your beliefs and theorys because you are very mixed up. Never met an anti-immigrant socialist libertarian before. There are 3oxymorans in there. 2 is normally impressive but 3 is a record.

Again - if the federal government didn't steal money from people through taxation and offer services equally to all, then I would not have such a big problem with immigration - but otherwise it is simply unfair.

If you came here when you were 5 then I think it's fine, so long as your parents payed taxes to pay for the services available to you.

However I am against any welfare for the aged, so I don't care even if someone was born in Australia - they don't deserve a cent just because they are old and out of work. However given that's not the case - it is another example of major problems with immigration. The older someone is when they come to Australia, the less super they will be able to save, the more money taxpayers will have to give them upon retirement. Given we have a massive problem with this already in Australia - immigrants just make it worse.

Yada yada blah blah, so Australia isnt all that bad you say but still pretty bad, so what is your ideal country where freedom and liberty is a beacon of light. After all Australia is a quasi communist state, right? We are all slaves but we dont know it, like the Matrix, right?

I mentioned Switzerland. Federal tax of 1%, tiny federal government, never goes to war with anyone, very strong civil liberties and freedoms, direct democracy. You will never hear about censorship in Switzerland.

Australia is not "not that bad", it is pretty bad. Just because it's not the worst country when it comes to freedoms and liberties, is no good reason to celebrate. Australia doesn't even protect journalists' rights to not reveal sources.

You have the first part, tell me what is the government doing to stop you doing something or anything as you please? Have you been spied on by the government personally or labbeled a terrorist? What freedom dont you have anymore and please give some concreate examples not some populist, internet rambing nonesense.

I already mentioned many examples. For one, we almost had state enforced censorship in Australia, and there's a good chance we still will. For another, Australia has the broadest terrorism definition in the world:

From Criminal Code Act, division 100

the action is done or the threat is made with the intention of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause;

It is mandatory in Australia to search electronic devices for people entering the country, which is a gross infringement of peoples' rights.

Australia also has agencies like ASIO who no doubt spy on it's citizens. And there is no doubt that Australia shares information about it's citizens with other countries like USA.

Australia has failed to protect it's citizens - people like David Hicks and Julian Assange from foreign fascist powers arbitrarily prosecuting them for political reasons with the cover of "terrorism".

Australia has failed to be a neutral country, and has wasted taxpayer dollars to make Australian citizens targets by invading countries on the other side of the world, which have nothing to do with Australia.

Australian governments constantly bow down to foreign corporate powers and steal their citizens' rights when it comes to various copyright laws and protections. ACTA is one good example of this, as the Australian government was all too happy to deny it's people the rights to even use Internet at the wish of foreign companies.

Even now, there exist crazy legislations which prohibit people like me from playing DVD and Bluray movies on our computers, simply because we choose to use open source software. Even the US has exceptions for cases like this in their DMA laws - but Australia does not, making ordinary daily activities illegal.

In fact, until several years ago, it was literally illegal to put any music on your mp3 player until the government finally scrapped the law involved. Why didn't they pull their heads out of their arses and question the law in the first place instead of passing it so willingly? They continue to propagate terrorist acts against Australian citizens, taking away their rights and liberties, selling them out to foreign governments and corporations without a care in the world.

Also waiting for your Swiss explanation.

Explaining what?

The trouble is though most people dont want to move themselves and their family to North West Australia. Even if they have the skills (which is a big if)
So, then what? Are you going to forceably move them? Confiscate their property and any equity they have then ship them off to maintin your idealogical position? Just like 1930's Russia eh?

What do you mean "don't want to move"? If they can't get a job where they currently live, then they have no choice!

 

[Calliope]

You have the first part, tell me what is the government doing to stop you doing something or anything as you please? Have you been spied on by the government personally or labbeled a terrorist? What freedom dont you have anymore and please give some concreate examples not some populist, internet rambing nonesense.

Also waiting for your Swiss explanation.

I know you are new to this forum jank, but I suggest you take Julia's advice.

Asking for a rational explanation of SCM's rants is an exercise in futility

.

 

[numbercruncher]

OK, so are you concluding that if demand from China slows significantly and the boom is no longer a boom, the dollar falls, both tourism and manufacturing will therefore recover?

If that demand is not then picked up from elsewhere then it stands to reason that that is as it could play out. Like I said im no clairvoyant or soothsayer ..... Just a bloke sharing an opinion ...

The other industries cant recover overnight there has to be a serious time lag - but the AUD could certainly fall rapidly imho - already off alot from its peak -

You would certainly see team Rinehart have a change of heart of the availability of skilled local labour if the AUD halved huh - those pesky foreigners would all of a sudden be expensive and her patriotic desire to employ Locals would enter a renaissance period

 

[jank]

You simply dont need "most" people - only some !

What skills would Aussie construction workers lack that foreign construction workers have ?

You seem hell bent on discrediting Australian worker abilities and ethics - its a very hollow empty flawed and simply wrong argument. Seen you have raised the point so many times can you provide us with some substance or proof that we as a nation are that unskilled and lazy ?

yes, and the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Australians employed in mining projects means that there is a serious shortage of skilled australians now therefore they have to look off-shore. I dont form my opinion from hear say or gossip down the pub.
On the last point, I never said that so dont put words in my mouth.

 

[jank]

But what you suggest draws from communist ideology. I'm not saying everything in Australia is communist - merely that businesses being able to hire anyone from any country they want is akin to communism.!

My gosh! Businesses are now practicing something that is akin to communism Oxymoronan number 4.
They clearly cannot hire just anyone, they can only hire people with skills to match the requirements. Clearly that is not everyone.

You can really dismiss any ideology if some things don't conform do how other countries using such ideologies operated in the past. For instance - you can't dismiss USA as a fascist state just because the government does not preach racial purity - given that everything else in the US resembles a fascist state.!

Well along with the fact you dont know what communism is, you dont know what Fasicm is either.

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics

One thing I cannot stand is people on the internet using big words yet fail to understand the true meaning and philosophy behind them. Stop reading the internet and read some books, start with Hannah Arendt.

Never is good. Again, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much of a problem if the government did not tax people so much and offer services to everyone.!

Wow, never. Fair enough but unless you are an indiginous Australian then do you realise that comment to be very ironic?

Again - if the federal government didn't steal money from people through taxation and offer services equally to all, then I would not have such a big problem with immigration - but otherwise it is simply unfair.!

In your opinion.

If you came here when you were 5 then I think it's fine, so long as your parents payed taxes to pay for the services available to you.

However I am against any welfare for the aged, so I don't care even if someone was born in Australia - they don't deserve a cent just because they are old and out of work. However given that's not the case - it is another example of major problems with immigration. The older someone is when they come to Australia, the less super they will be able to save, the more money taxpayers will have to give them upon retirement. Given we have a massive problem with this already in Australia - immigrants just make it worse.!

You do realise there is an age cap on skilled migration for exactly this reason?

I mentioned Switzerland. Federal tax of 1%, tiny federal government, never goes to war with anyone, very strong civil liberties and freedoms, direct democracy. You will never hear about censorship in Switzerland.!

The Swiss have a long history of isolationism going back to the middle ages. Federal tax maybe be 1% but thpanacea lots of other taxes. It is not a pancea. For example they have just passed a law banning Minaret's due to increased migration from islamic nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minare..._the_referendum_and_implementation_of_the_ban

Australia is not "not that bad", it is pretty bad. Just because it's not the worst country when it comes to freedoms and liberties, is no good reason to celebrate. Australia doesn't even protect journalists' rights to not reveal sources.!

Yea pretty bad must mean 2 best in the world in terms of HDI index only beaten by Norway. (Swiss in 13th place)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

In terms of press freedom Australia doesnt score so highly only 30th out of 179 countries. (still in the top 20%)

In terms of economic freedom Australia comes 3rd after Singapore and HK again beating the Swiss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Moving to the democracy index Australia comes in 6th again beating the Swiss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Australia are 6th in the economic freedom of the world index. Swiss beats you this time by 1 place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World_Index

So there you have it, Australia must be a desperate place to live. You strike me as someone who as actually never been outside of the place and seen what other countries are like. Have you seen real poverty, no electricity, no hospitals, no running water type of poverty? Have you been to a country and rarely have see old people because they are all dead? I have been to all continents in the world apart from the south pole and have seen plenty of it. Australia and the west in comparison are spoilt.

I already mentioned many examples. For one, we almost had state enforced censorship in Australia, and there's a good chance we still will. For another, Australia has the broadest terrorism definition in the world:

From Criminal Code Act, division 100


It is mandatory in Australia to search electronic devices for people entering the country, which is a gross infringement of peoples' rights.!

I have been in and out many a times to Australia have had never had my laptop or ipod "searched" Mandatory it is not

Australia also has agencies like ASIO who no doubt spy on it's citizens. And there is no doubt that Australia shares information about it's citizens with other countries like USA.
!

Pretty much all countries have these agencies. Get back to me when they are spying on you because of our beliefs or race. Then arresting you and putting you in jail because of the things you say. If this has happened then you must have lots of proof of it.

Australia has failed to protect it's citizens - people like David Hicks and Julian Assange from foreign fascist powers arbitrarily prosecuting them for political reasons with the cover of "terrorism".!

I actually admire Assange but if he thinks that he can steal classified secrets from the US government and get away with it he is kidding himself.

Australia has failed to be a neutral country, and has wasted taxpayer dollars to make Australian citizens targets by invading countries on the other side of the world, which have nothing to do with Australia.!

Since when have they failed? If that is the case then Australia has failed to be a neutral country since the first world war.

Australian governments constantly bow down to foreign corporate powers and steal their citizens' rights when it comes to various copyright laws and protections. ACTA is one good example of this, as the Australian government was all too happy to deny it's people the rights to even use Internet at the wish of foreign companies.!

Use the internet? They are going to ban the internet now because someone told them to? Please!

Even now, there exist crazy legislations which prohibit people like me from playing DVD and Bluray movies on our computers, simply because we choose to use open source software. Even the US has exceptions for cases like this in their DMA laws - but Australia does not, making ordinary daily activities illegal.!

?? Are you talking about copyright and regional codes? I suppose this is Australias fault too. Damm those studios wanting to protect their IP.

In fact, until several years ago, it was literally illegal to put any music on your mp3 player until the government finally scrapped the law involved. Why didn't they pull their heads out of their arses and question the law in the first place instead of passing it so willingly? They continue to propagate terrorist acts against Australian citizens, taking away their rights and liberties, selling them out to foreign governments and cimprisoned without a care in the woTerroristOTE].!

How many people have been killed, mamed, tortured, imprisioned, charged with the above?
Terroist acts? Like blowing up buses or planes or buildings? The Australian government does this, to people who have ipods?
Look there may have been poor legislation but the tone of your posts totally discredits your arguements an makes you look like a loon. A crazy crazy loon.

What do you mean "don't want to move"? Iforce ablyn't get a job where they currently live, then they have no choice!

So you think they should be forceably moved? Fufor cableing everyone else that the government violates your rights on a daily basis yet at a drop of a hat would forcable move entire families to areas where they dont want to live.
The term do as I say, not as I do comes to mind.