Importing Migrant Workers

[numbercruncher]

Starry's and NC's ideal version of class hatred disappeared with the Berlin Wall. Perhaps they should relocate to Cuba. No Rineharts there. Entrepreneurs get short shrift there.

Ha !! Typical extremists - Just because we dissagree with her questionable at best business practices its class hatred !!? .... I happen to think that Andrew Forrest is an absolute freaking Aussie legend - Im sure youll come up with some cliche' to label me with from that comment too ....

Im with 3 out of 4 of Gina's kids - take it off her before its too late !

Dont know why I even bother responding to some of you ....

 

[Starcraftmazter]

The scum on this thread is coming to the surface. Obviously all you brave class warriors with a lynch mob mentality, would like to rid the country of people like Rinehart, who are driving the mining boom which is the only thing that keeps this country and your Labor Government afloat.

I don't care for the ALP government - but the mining boom is not keeping the country afloat - it is destroying our economy by inducing currency speculation, while selling our resources to other countries and paying dividend profits to foreign shareholders. If all mining disappeared tomorrow - I'd be a much happier person.

You are a libertarian yet you want protectionism of jobs and curbs to skilled migration. Hmmmm, I don't think you get what libertarian-ism is mate.

I'm not asking for anything - it only makes sense that Australian businesses employ Australian workers. Anything else is a borderless communist society.

Beyond that, you cannot have immigration alongside taxpayer funded welfare, healthcare and other services. You just can't - that isn't fair.

You are a VERY confused individual. You are also a disgrace thinking that Australia is some sort of Proxy Iranian state. Have you been to the middle east? Have you lived and worked in any other part of the world? Australia is one of the freest, liberal and best countries to work and be successful in. I should know as a migrant. To state that a quasi communist state would be better then what we have now is horse manure. It is also disrespectful to the tens of thousands of people in the world fighting for their own freedom. See Syria and Egypt for example. You are so confused and blinkered there is almost no point arguing with you as you are the type of person that will just go round and round in contradictions.

Just because many Australians are glued to the TV and facebook believing they have freedom, doesn't make it so. You say a lot of things - but nothing to back them up. I gave concrete examples proving that Australians have no freedom, you would do better to try and tackle those than posting mindless dribble.

To some people like you, words such as freedom and liberty are meaningless. To me, they are not. I understand the difference between living in an Australia or a Switzerland.

 

[numbercruncher]

If you look at the big picture Starcraftmazter is correct -

The benefits of the mining boom go to the minority - entire other industries have been wrecked such as Tourism and Manufacturing. Agriculture suffers. The environment suffers.

But as long as demand for these resources exists I dont see it changing - a Government addicted to these revenues and one thats becoming increasingly controlled by the Super wealthy -

The mining industry is here to stay but it needs to be done responsibly and to me and others it seems Rinehart is on a reckless pursuit of wealth and power.

Maybe eventually we can all just retire and bring in 457s in every industry - surfs up dudes

 

[Calliope]

Ha !! Typical extremists - Just because we dissagree with her questionable at best business practices its class hatred !!? .... I happen to think that Andrew Forrest is an absolute freaking Aussie legend - Im sure youll come up with some cliche' to label me with from that comment too ....

Im with 3 out of 4 of Gina's kids - take it off her before its too late !

Dont know why I even bother responding to some of you ....

Yes why bother when you have nothing add except you irrational hatred of Rinehart. I suppose her win in the Alpha Project will tip you over the edge.

And this is Starry's little gem of stupidity; Now we know why he is so bitter and unhappy.

If all mining disappeared tomorrow - I'd be a much happier person

.

 

[jank]

I'm not asking for anything - it only makes sense that Australian businesses employ Australian workers. Anything else is a borderless communist society..

You asking that all Australian business employ Australians regardless of their skills, ability to work or experience of the job at hand? That is a very authoritarian and protectionist outlook on life. Why does it make sense? The world is not as black and white as you would like to make out. Should all other foreign companies only employ people from where the company was founded. Apple could only employ Americans. Toyota Japanese, etc.. What a stupid idea. We live in a global economy. You actually have no idea what you are on about. Do you even know what communism is? It a society based on no state, class or money where the means of production are collectively owned by the "people". So how the frigging hell is Australia a borderline communist state.

Beyond that, you cannot have immigration alongside taxpayer funded welfare, healthcare and other services. You just can't - that isn't fair...

Please explain this rubbish because I have no idea what you are on about. When I was on a 457 visa i paid a load of taxes even though I was entitled to hardly anything. I got no Medicare, education or any other service that I wanted I had to pay extra because I was a temp resident. It has been proven so many times that skilled migrants are net contributors to the tax base. Even now as a permanent resident even though I have been here almost 3 years already I have to wait another 2 years before I can claim any welfare benefit (not that I am going to). Them are the rules.

Just because many Australians are glued to the TV and facebook believing they have freedom, doesn't make it so. You say a lot of things - but nothing to back them up. I gave concrete examples proving that Australians have no freedom, you would do better to try and tackle those than posting mindless dribble..

Just because people don't exert their freedoms on a daily basis doesn't mean they don't have it.

The very fact that we are on the internet having this discussion blows what ever rant you have out of the water. If this was China, we would probably be arrested. North Koredoesn'tnt have the internet for FFS. I can go protest peacefully in the street, join a political party of my choosing, have whatever faith I want, raise my children in peace without shells dropping on our heads or for the fear of them being taken away while i amurdereded or butchered for being of the wrong sex, religion, ageethnicityty. There are many areas in the world you cannot do that. Is Australia perfect, not a chance, but then again show me a perfect society.

To some people like you, words such as freedom and liberty are meaningless. To me, they are not. I understand the difference between living in an Australia or a Switzerland.

Do you, so please explain.

 

[jank]

Maybe eventually we can all just retire and bring in 457s in every industry - surfs up dudes

Large swathes of western Sydney are doing that already.

 

[moXJO]

If you look at the big picture Starcraftmazter is correct -

The benefits of the mining boom go to the minority - entire other industries have been wrecked such as Tourism and Manufacturing. Agriculture suffers. The environment suffers.

But as long as demand for these resources exists I dont see it changing - a Government addicted to these revenues and one thats becoming increasingly controlled by the Super wealthy -

The mining industry is here to stay but it needs to be done responsibly and to me and others it seems Rinehart is on a reckless pursuit of wealth and power.

Maybe eventually we can all just retire and bring in 457s in every industry - surfs up dudes

What you have to remember is that the unions want to stop 457 so they can take advantage and increase wages on labor shortages. Not because 457 will lower wages. The second reason is that those on 457 don't join the union. I actually think labor has been hard done by here and this has all been blown out of proportion. Some business does take advantage of the 457 visa. But I'm not sure it's that much of a problem.
But I agree that Australia needs to focus on the other industries and trade partnerships. Something labor has never had any vision for.

Here is the rundown of recommendations from the Resourcing the Future Report
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Skills/Programs/National/nrset/Documents/FinalReport.pdf

Recommendations
• Promote workforce planning and sharing of information
• Increase the number of trade professionals
• Graduate more engineers and geoscientists
• Meet temporary skills shortages with temporary migration
• Strengthen workforce participation
• Forge stronger ties between industry and education
• Address the need for affordable housing and community infrastructure

Further thoughts on which I agree with
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/28/why-getting-australians-into-mining-jobs-doesnt-add-up/

But the problem is there aren’t that many skilled Australians looking for jobs. Gray’s estimate is that the resources sector might be 36,000 tradespeople short by 2015. Worse, given the location of mining industry jobs, it makes little economic sense to assume people from major centres in the eastern states will relocate to take them.

Why? It’s nothing to with laziness or being work-shy. It simply doesn’t add up. The biggest group of unemployed people are married people between 35-54. That means they’re likely to have families. Moving your family to a town adjacent to a major mining project is problematic: wages are likely to be high, but so too will housing costs, cancelling out the benefits of any income rise. Ordinary household supplies will also be more expensive. Access to childcare or education choices for your kids is likely to be very limited, as will health-care options.

If you opt for the other alternative and become a FIFO worker, that enables you to take a job without relocating, but puts significant strain on families and partners who stay behind.

In short, taking a mining job might be superficially appealing, but anyone with a family would have to think long and hard, especially unemployment nationally is only 5% and the chances of picking up work closer to home are high.

 

[Glen48]

Any idea who Gina wants to employ there are thousands of job's going in UAE Canada and I guess USA on shale oil so she will have to pay well, so other than specialist occupations Oz should be able to supply all she needs and once the hunger pains kick in workers will go where the money is.

 

[numbercruncher]

Yes why bother when you have nothing add except you irrational hatred of Rinehart.
.

Saying someone is irrational isnt good enough in a debate you need some specific examples of my supposed irrational behaviour, Im happy to be wrong ive learnt alot this way through my life - Ive supported my viewpoints on grounds such as her lack of Job advertisments , No representation at this weekends Perth Jobs fair , Her push for a Northern Economic Zone , 3 out of four of her Kids vote of no confidence , Her raid on Fairfax obviously to control the media etc

Where as your contribution to the debate is little more than personal insult with zero substance and no reference to any facts - perhaps your part of the Rinehart public relations team ?

 

[Calliope]

Saying someone is irrational isnt good enough in a debate you need some specific examples of my supposed irrational behaviour

Class hatred and denunciation of Rinehart just because she is successful, is irrational behaviour. Why do you still bother to respond when you have nothing to add?

 

[moXJO]

Regarding lack of advertisement I have to agree, although I think a lot has to do with the mines using recruitment agencies? I think the combination of tightarse mine management and unreasonable union demands has created a situation where they no longer train or hire in house if it can be avoided. Pure speculation on my part

 

[Starcraftmazter]

You asking that all Australian business employ Australians regardless of their skills, ability to work or experience of the job at hand? That is a very authoritarian and protectionist outlook on life. Why does it make sense? The world is not as black and white as you would like to make out. Should all other foreign companies only employ people from where the company was founded. Apple could only employ Americans. Toyota Japanese, etc.. What a stupid idea. We live in a global economy. You actually have no idea what you are on about. Do you even know what communism is? It a society based on no state, class or money where the means of production are collectively owned by the "people". So how the frigging hell is Australia a borderline communist state.

You have mixed up two separate concepts here, suggesting that companies employ workers from the country where said company was founded. No, I am merely suggesting that if a company is doing business in Australia - be it running a factory, a mine, an office, a retail store - then it makes sense to draw from the manpower pool of the country where that specific work site is operating.

A communist society is one without borders or nations where all labour is united. That seems to be very much what you suggest.

Please explain this rubbish because I have no idea what you are on about. When I was on a 457 visa i paid a load of taxes even though I was entitled to hardly anything. I got no Medicare, education or any other service that I wanted I had to pay extra because I was a temp resident. It has been proven so many times that skilled migrants are net contributors to the tax base. Even now as a permanent resident even though I have been here almost 3 years already I have to wait another 2 years before I can claim any welfare benefit (not that I am going to). Them are the rules.

But then you will be able to claim said welfare benefits. And healthcare. That's pretty ridiculous. You can't have any immigration unless you have a nation where said immigrations will not be entitled to taxpayer funded services at any point in time in their lives. The simple reason is, other people have been paying taxes for longer than anyone who immigrates here, so it doesn't seem fair that everyone gets equal treatment while having paid a disproportionate amount of tax.

That being said, I don't think tax is far anyway - if we simply downsized the federal government by 99% it would solve all problems.

The very fact that we are on the internet having this discussion blows what ever rant you have out of the water. If this was China, we would probably be arrested. North Koredoesn'tnt have the internet for FFS. I can go protest peacefully in the street, join a political party of my choosing, have whatever faith I want, raise my children in peace without shells dropping on our heads or for the fear of them being taken away while i amurdereded or butchered for being of the wrong sex, religion, ageethnicityty. There are many areas in the world you cannot do that. Is Australia perfect, not a chance, but then again show me a perfect society.

How pathetic of an argument are you trying to mount, if you are forced to compare Australia to the worst countries in the world when it comes to freedoms - just to try and make the case that we have some? Thank you for proving my point.

Do you, so please explain.

How about the freedom to do and say as we please, not be the target of government spying, freedom to live without being taxed for things we don't need and for wars we don't support, not have to live in the fear of being labelled a terrorist for some arbitrary reason, have a government that actually cares about it's citizens and protects their freedoms as opposed to selling them out if USA says so.

 

[numbercruncher]

What you have to remember is that the unions want to stop 457 so they can take advantage and increase wages on labor shortages. Not because 457 will lower wages. The second reason is that those on 457 don't join the union. I actually think labor has been hard done by here and this has all been blown out of proportion. Some business does take advantage of the 457 visa. But I'm not sure it's that much of a problem.
But I agree that Australia needs to focus on the other industries and trade partnerships. Something labor has never had any vision for.

Here is the rundown of recommendations from the Resourcing the Future Report
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Skills/Programs/National/nrset/Documents/FinalReport.pdf




Further thoughts on which I agree with
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/28/why-getting-australians-into-mining-jobs-doesnt-add-up/

I have no reason to doubt that this is the case with some Unionists -

I dont think anyone has a issue with skilled labour 457 when they cant get a suitable local - I just dont see how this Rinehart deal is genuine - everything smells like its Financially motivated as opposed to a shortage of a whopping 1700 people on this project.

Thing is 457 is way too easy to rort -

There is no requirement that a business seeking an EMA demonstrate that there are labour shortages affecting its operation. Nor does the business need to demonstrate that no Australian is available to perform the work undertaken by a 457 worker (it only needs to demonstrate ''effective and ongoing local recruitment efforts'')

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/457-reasons-for-reform-20120528-1zf6y.html#ixzz1wDuNFHjG

Im not sure Rinehart even meets the effective and ongoing recruitment efforts clause - anyone able to pull me up and prove me absolutely wrong on that ?

 

[numbercruncher]

Class hatred and denunciation of Rinehart just because she is successful, is irrational behaviour. Why do you still bother to respond when you have nothing to add?

You can do better than that Calliope - the fact that you pressed the reply button proves your not a full 100% lazy -

 

[numbercruncher]

Large swathes of western Sydney are doing that already.

Western Sydney is full of 457 doing the work ?

 

[moXJO]

I have no reason to doubt that this is the case with some Unionists -

I dont think anyone has a issue with skilled labour 457 when they cant get a suitable local - I just dont see how this Rinehart deal is genuine - everything smells like its Financially motivated as opposed to a shortage of a whopping 1700 people on this project.

Thing is 457 is way too easy to rort -



Im not sure Rinehart even meets the effective and ongoing recruitment efforts clause - anyone able to pull me up and prove me absolutely wrong on that ?

Yeah I'm not big on Rinehart, but I think this whole thing blew up after wayne swans class war. Notice how he has kept his mouth shut. I'm wondering if it was some kind of labor distraction.

I suppose it's a matter of how many locals they have already put on and if they have come to a point where 457 is needed for the short term.
When you think about it you are basically living at work for 3 weeks 12 hour days in some cases. Not only that but your living in a hot $hithole. So even though the wages seem good, they ain't that good if you have a family. Really need a link to the numbers on the project.

 

[imperator]

I don't see what the big fuss is? It's clear there are labour shortages in the mining industry, particularly in some parts of the country, and if those projects need foreign labour to proceed, well so be it. Let's hope some of they stay and become valued members of Australian society, just like hundred of thousands of emigrant workers who have come before them!

Sure, there is a role for the government to "mediate" per se to ensure that Australian's don't get shafted and that such arrangements are used appropriately. For example, making sure these workers are paid the same as an Australian with the same skill sets would be paid so that such schemes can't be used to shaft under cut locals.

What frustrates me is that I have never heard a clear message from the current labour/green government. Why can't they just come out, call things as they are, be clear, consistent, and most importantly, at least appear like they know what's going on... An issue like this is clearly very political, and we need some political leadership, something we have now been missing for a number of years.

Please note: the author is a swinging voter who attempts to vote for who he thinks is the best candidate. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of voting for Keving back in 07.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

It's clear there are labour shortages in the mining industry, particularly in some parts of the country, and if those projects need foreign labour to proceed, well so be it.

How is it clear - pray tell? As for the locations - that is irrelevant, because of a little thing known as labour mobility.

 

[Calliope]

I don't see what the big fuss is? It's clear there are labour shortages in the mining industry, particularly in some parts of the country, and if those projects need foreign labour to proceed, well so be it. Let's hope some of they stay and become valued members of Australian society, just like hundred of thousands of emigrant workers who have come before them!

The big fuss is all just hot air driven by Doug Cameron. It is obvious that the Rinehaters are in the Cameron camp, i.e. the losers.

I repeat from a previous post;

In parliament, Mr Bowen, Wayne Swan, Resources Minister Martin Ferguson and Ms Gillard defended the Roy Hill EMA."This project is vital for Australia's future, and this agreement is vital for delivering it," Mr Bowen said.

End of story.

Another gem from Starry. How quaint.

How is it clear - pray tell?

 

[moXJO]

As for the locations - that is irrelevant, because of a little thing known as labour mobility.

Could you expand on this?