The Nuances of Language

[bellenuit]

I couldn't quite find the best existing thread to post this, so I am picking the Nuances of Language as it is the closest fit.

We have from time to time discussed "proper" English in the General Chat Forum and have winced at certain usages.

I can across a podcast by Stephen Fry that was simply brilliant (IMO of course) that I felt I must share. He discusses proper use of language, particular things like nouns being used as verbs and misuse of words such as "disinterested". His take on these issues might surprise many people.

This is the complete audio podcast that lasts about an hour. Very much worth listening to, if only for the beauty of his oratory.

http://fry.positive-dedicated.net/fry-podcast2-episodes-03.m4a

This is a YouTube video I came across that is a short subset (6 mins) of the podcast and specifically is on misuse of language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY&feature=topics

 

[Glen48]

I think the Yanks are the best at abusing the English language, Like I will write you, wanta get bite, take out, pick up, but maybe I don't know nothing.
Mr Fry is the one who said he was once in a Vagina and never wants to be in one again.

 

[Julia]

I couldn't quite find the best existing thread to post this, so I am picking the Nuances of Language as it is the closest fit.

We have from time to time discussed "proper" English in the General Chat Forum and have winced at certain usages.

I can across a podcast by Stephen Fry that was simply brilliant (IMO of course) that I felt I must share. He discusses proper use of language, particular things like nouns being used as verbs and misuse of words such as "disinterested". His take on these issues might surprise many people.

This is the complete audio podcast that lasts about an hour. Very much worth listening to, if only for the beauty of his oratory.

Thanks, bellenuit. Will look forward to this. Stephen Fry would have to be one of the most articulate and eloquent people I've heard. Caught him recently on a TV doco travelling around the US where his easy way with people captured some magic conversations.

 

[bellenuit]

Stephen Fry would have to be one of the most articulate and eloquent people I've heard. Caught him recently on a TV doco travelling around the US where his easy way with people captured some magic conversations.

Yes, I saw that series. It was amazing how he was so at home with many of the people he talked to. I am not sure that many of those same people would have been so forthcoming if they realised he was gay, an atheist and very much on the left (at least in American terms) politically. I guess it goes to show how people can accept each other's humanity when they are not pre-prejudiced by labels.

 

[bellenuit]

Thanks, bellenuit. Will look forward to this.

Julia. When you get towards 10:45ish into the podcast, look out for his fleeting but uncommented usage of "spelt" v "spelled". When I heard it, it brought to mind a post of yours on another thread today.

 

[Glen48]

A US city council has been left red faced after an embarrassing spelling error painted on the road outside a high school went unnoticed for months.

Sometime last year contractors painted "SHCOOL X-NG" outside Manhattan's Marta Valle High School, in the Lower East Side, but the mistake has only just been noticed.

A spokesman from the Department of Transportation (DOT) said the mistake was made by a utility provider and not the city or any of its contractors.

He said the contractor was being contacted to fix the error.

But a city worker who wanted to remain anonymous told the New York Post the error should have been noticed and reported months ago.

"Regardless of who painted it, someone from the school should have been outside supervising, or noticed it by now ”” this is sloppy work," they said.

The road marking was painted when construction crews cut into the street to access underground utility lines and had to restore the road.

 

[Julia]

I can across a podcast by Stephen Fry that was simply brilliant (IMO of course) that I felt I must share. He discusses proper use of language, particular things like nouns being used as verbs and misuse of words such as "disinterested". His take on these issues might surprise many people.

You're right, I was a bit surprised. Have only listened to some of the short version.

Much as I admire Stephen Fry's oratory, I can't help feeling he is being somewhat disingenuous here. I've of course not heard every word he has ever uttered, but I've never heard him make any sort of mistake with a word (at least that I had the capacity to recognise). So his endorsement for anyone 'getting it wrong' seems a bit like a sort of inverse snobbery in pursuit of popularity or something. He has often talked about his low self esteem.

I might be on quite the wrong track here, but much as I enjoy listening to Mr Fry, I'm unlikely to be persuaded in favour of the ever increasing degradation of language. That undoubtedly makes me a picky pedant but if so, I'll live with that.

 

[bellenuit]

You're right, I was a bit surprised. Have only listened to some of the short version.

Much as I admire Stephen Fry's oratory, I can't help feeling he is being somewhat disingenuous here. I've of course not heard every word he has ever uttered, but I've never heard him make any sort of mistake with a word (at least that I had the capacity to recognise). So his endorsement for anyone 'getting it wrong' seems a bit like a sort of inverse snobbery in pursuit of popularity or something. He has often talked about his low self esteem.

I might be on quite the wrong track here, but much as I enjoy listening to Mr Fry, I'm unlikely to be persuaded in favour of the ever increasing degradation of language. That undoubtedly makes me a picky pedant but if so, I'll live with that.

Yes, I too am not in complete agreement with Fry. I can accept that using nouns as verbs can expand the language and often can end up allowing one to express oneself more succinctly than otherwise. Similarly, importing words from another language can also allow subtleties to be expressed that might not be available with existing English words (though often the use of foreign words is just snobbery). These add to the richness of English and are part of its continuing evolution. But often new expressions are replacing succinctness with pedantry and should be discouraged, particularly some politicalspeak. Often the purpose of these expressions is to hide meaning or confuse rather than convey meaning. As for accepting misuse of words, that can actually lead to increased misunderstanding, which seems at odds to the purpose of language to begin with.

 

[Julia]

Yes, I too am not in complete agreement with Fry. I can accept that using nouns as verbs can expand the language and often can end up allowing one to express oneself more succinctly than otherwise.

Sure, but then we get "I have tasked the Department with ......" etc.
What on earth was wrong with "I have asked the Department to......"?

Similarly, importing words from another language can also allow subtleties to be expressed that might not be available with existing English words (though often the use of foreign words is just snobbery).

Yes, or just what is currently fashionable, viz "segue" originally used in a musical context but now everyone is segueing (sp?) into everything.
Ditto "camaraderie", from the French, frequently mispronounced as "comraderie", presumably on the assumption it derives from "companion".

These add to the richness of English and are part of its continuing evolution. But often new expressions are replacing succinctness with pedantry and should be discouraged, particularly some politicalspeak. Often the purpose of these expressions is to hide meaning or confuse rather than convey meaning.

Oh, so agree. Don Watson is brilliant on this, e.g. his "Dictionary of Weasel Words".

As for accepting misuse of words, that can actually lead to increased misunderstanding, which seems at odds to the purpose of language to begin with.

Indeed. Your earlier post referred to "disinterested". I didn't listen to enough of Mr Fry to discover what he had to say about this, but have to admit it's one of my pet peeves. The meaning of "disinterested" ( unbiased, neutral, not being influenced) has nothing at all to do with the meaning of "uninterested" as in "bored", "not engaged", yet we frequently hear ABC journalists and others misusing "disinterested".

 

[Glen48]

.


Indeed. Your earlier post referred to "disinterested". I didn't listen to enough of Mr Fry to discover what he had to say about this, but have to admit it's one of my pet peeves. The meaning of "disinterested" ( unbiased, neutral, not being influenced) has nothing at all to do with the meaning of "uninterested" as in "bored", "not engaged", yet we frequently hear ABC journalists and others misusing "disinterested".

Its ok Julia just the ABC misspoke, which I assume has nothing to do with Miss Spokane annual beauty contest.

 

[bellenuit]

Indeed. Your earlier post referred to "disinterested". I didn't listen to enough of Mr Fry to discover what he had to say about this, but have to admit it's one of my pet peeves. The meaning of "disinterested" ( unbiased, neutral, not being influenced) has nothing at all to do with the meaning of "uninterested" as in "bored", "not engaged", yet we frequently hear ABC journalists and others misusing "disinterested".

Without re-listening to the podcast, I think what he said in relation to disinterested, is that it is often used by those who do not understand its correct meaning in such a way that the listener understands, by way of the context in which it is used, what the speaker actually meant by the use of the word.

Although he didn't use this as an example, I assume he meant someone saying "I don't know nothing about it" would be interpreted by all listeners as "I don't no anything about it", even though that is in fact the opposite to what was said. So Fry is saying - you understood what is meant, get on with it and stop being pedantic. But, IMO, if no one corrects the mistake, how does the speaker ever learn that it is wrong.

In fact, again IMO, there might be a distinction between disinterested and "I don't know nothing". By correcting people who misuse disinterested, there is a chance that the misuse might be curtailed. But "I don't know nothing" is so ingrained in black (US/English) culture that it should be accepted into the vernacular as a proper expression. I remember listening to a program where this expression was discussed and some suggested that "I don't know nothing" had actually taken on the meaning of a more emphatic way of saying "I don't know". As in:

Teacher: Do you know who threw the chalk
Student: I don't know
Teacher: I think you do.
Student: No, I don't know nothing.

 

[Glen48]

i was under the impression this is a double negative meaning if you don't know nothing you must know some thing.

 

[cynic]

I might be on quite the wrong track here, but much as I enjoy listening to Mr Fry, I'm unlikely to be persuaded in favour of the ever increasing degradation of language. That undoubtedly makes me a picky pedant but if so, I'll live with that.

+1

Wherefore dost thou nay speaketh ye Olde English?

 

[Julia]

Without re-listening to the podcast, I think what he said in relation to disinterested, is that it is often used by those who do not understand its correct meaning in such a way that the listener understands, by way of the context in which it is used, what the speaker actually meant by the use of the word.

Sure, but that's not really the point if our main focus is on preserving the integrity of the language.

Although he didn't use this as an example, I assume he meant someone saying "I don't know nothing about it" would be interpreted by all listeners as "I don't no anything about it", even though that is in fact the opposite to what was said. So Fry is saying - you understood what is meant, get on with it and stop being pedantic.

And this is exactly what happens 99% of the time, especially if we know what we're hearing is the vernacular of a group who always speaks that way, e.g. "I don't know nothing about it".

But, IMO, if no one corrects the mistake, how does the speaker ever learn that it is wrong.

Exactly. Mostly we're not going to go through life correcting everyone who misuses language. We would soon become very unpopular!
I'll occasionally send in a complaint to the ABC because they should be able to get it right.

If we could educate teachers properly that would be a great start. I have a neighbour who teaches high school English. She says "Me and Tom went out last night" and "We should have went there".
Not a lot of hope for students there.

In fact, again IMO, there might be a distinction between disinterested and "I don't know nothing". By correcting people who misuse disinterested, there is a chance that the misuse might be curtailed. But "I don't know nothing" is so ingrained in black (US/English) culture that it should be accepted into the vernacular as a proper expression.

Yes, the distinction is strong between "disinterested" and "I don't know nothing":

I remember listening to a program where this expression was discussed and some suggested that "I don't know nothing" had actually taken on the meaning of a more emphatic way of saying "I don't know". As in:

Teacher: Do you know who threw the chalk
Student: I don't know
Teacher: I think you do.
Student: No, I don't know nothing.

Good example.

 

[MrBurns]

Paraprosdokians are figures of speech in which the latter part of a sentence or
phrase is surprising or unexpected; frequently humorous. Winston Churchill
loved them.
___________________________________

1. Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

2. The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it's still on my list.

3. Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

4. If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

5. We never really grow up; we only learn how to act in public.

6. War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

7. Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

8. To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

9. I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

10. In filling out an application, where it says, 'In case of emergency, Notify:? I put 'DOCTOR'.

11. Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

12. You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.

13. I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure.

14. To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.

15. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

16. You're never too old to learn something stupid.

17. I'm supposed to respect my elders, but it’s getting harder and harder for me to find one.