Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

As you aware the Federal Court made orders on the 13 July, 2011 in the PIFAG v Wellington proceedings that the meeting should not proceed as scheduled for the 14 July, 2011. The full judgment has now been handed down.

The basis for the courts decision was largely technical issues relating to the register used to post notice to the unit holders and the quorum provisions for holding the meeting.

It was argued by Wellington that approximately 300 investors MAY NOT HAVE RECEIVED notice of meeting due to the changes in the register and changes of address after the date Wellington provided the register to PIFAG. You will be aware that there are over 10,700 investors in the fund. There was no proof that these investors did not receive notice, only that they MAY not have.

We are disappointed that such a small percentage of people potentially not receiving notice has led to the meeting being declared invalid particularly in circumstances where there is common ownership between Wellington and Armstrong Registry Services (which runs the registry for the fund) and in circumstances where Armstrong were less than cooperative in providing the register or any updates to any information on the register. The PIFAG certainly did not intend for any unit holder to be not informed. Far from it.

The only comfort we can take is that if the meeting had proceeded it most likely would have been unable to be held in an orderly manner due to persisting disagreement between PIFAG and Wellington over issues to do with quorum, chairperson and registry services.

Unfortunately the court has decided that the current quorum provisions of the fund are valid. These require a quorum of 51% of all unit holders for a resolution to remove Wellington Capital. We were of the view (Based on QC'S advice) that the provisions were prohibitive to investors calling a meeting to remove Wellington. We are naturally disappointed that the court did not agree.

We note that M/S Hutson alleges that she had enough proxy forms received by Wellington and in her possession that the meeting would have had a quorum if she had provided those forms to the registry (Computershare, a company previously used by Wellington and apparently good enough to handle the proxies for the meeting to elect Wellington, October, 2008) appointed by the PIFAG. It was noted by the court that M/S Hutson made a press release on the day of the 23 June, 2011 meeting in which "she was asserting that the meeting had been without a quorum. She did not expressly mention that she had produced this result by not attending to vote the proxies which she was holding." I wonder whether the unit holders who entrusted their proxy to Jenny Hutson expected their vote to be treated in this way? Perhaps so, but then maybe not.
,
The court also addressed the matters raised in an affidavit filed in the proceedings by one of the people who attended a meeting near the venue of the legitimate meeting on 23 June, not realising they were being asked to attend to accept a transfer of units in the fund and vote for M/S Hutson for the position of Chairman at the legitimate meeting. There has been numerous press articles concerning this extraordinary behaviour on behalf of the organisers of the meeting of some 230 hired hands. I also note in the latest memorandum no mention has been mentioned of this escapade nor of any action taken by Wellington to address this matter.

Whilst these matters did not impact the technical issues on which the case was decided the court noted that "THE ALLEGATIONS ARE OF SOME CONCERN. THE UNIT HOLDERS MAY HAVE TO CONSIDER THEM IN CONNECTION WITH THE FUTURE CONDUCT OF THE AFFAIRS OF THE FUND.

The PIFAG have certainly noted the comments of His Honour and have taken action to have the appropriate Regulatory Authority and Legal Advisors informed. I personally look forward to a positive outcome and believe all serious minded unit holders should do the same. If no action is taken is would set a very dangerous precedent for the calling of meetings, be they shareholders meetings or meetings called by unit holders to remove Responsible Entitities from Managed Funds. Simple, hire a crowd and run the meeting any way you wish.

I note Wellington Capital have not mentioned the comments of His Honour in the latest memorandum either.
 
[Duped]

"Fair enough. But that doesn't change the fact that it was also WC that chose to drop the Interlocutory action.

I originally responded to your post #8351 because you wrote e.g. 'Maybe the cost of attending the meeting was nothing to you, but to others, even tax deductible, was still expensive.'

Where was WC's regard for costs to unitholders when it decided to drop the interlocutory action? Don't you think that a unitholder would ask, why would WC make me pointlessly incur the expense of attending the meeting when:
A) WC is obligated to act in unitholder's best interests AND
B) JH has stated "I look forward to Unitholders having the opportunity to consider the resolutions put forward in the notice of 16 May 2011"?"

We see things differently. The meeting was called by CasCap/PIFAG and it's their responsibility as to the conduct of the meeting. They continued on with the meeting in the face of the pending litigation.

There were three issues (in time sequence):
1. the injuction (an interlocutory step in the trial process)
2. the meeting
3. the trial

After the injuction was discontinued, there were two issues (in time sequence):
1. the meeting
2. the trial

I don't see anything difficult in understanding those sequences, and neither should anyone else. The meeting was always subject to the outcome of the trial, even if the meeting was conducted and a vote taken.

I do not see that it was WC's obligation to warn investors of the risk posed by the future series of events, rather I see as the responsibility of those who called the meeting, but as I've said before, it's just a personal opinion.

"Regarding interlocutory actions. At the end of the day the only actionable event that WC needed to take action on was to prevent any changes being made to the operation of the fund. This is not like IP infringement or domestic violence where interlocutary orders will prevent repeated violations and the consequentual continuing damages. All WC had to do was sit back and wait for someone to come knocking on its door saying A) the Constitution will be amended as such and B) your fired. Only then did WC need to say 'on what authority'. Only when CasCap lodged forms with ASIC, initiated legal proceedings, tried to act on behalf of PIF etc did WC really need to initiate proceedings. Right?"

I think that from WC's perspective, the originating claim was necessary and it was reasonable in the circumstances to seek an injunction to stop the meeting. I think members would have been better served if the injunction was successful because a lot of anguish and costs suffered by members would have been avoided.

WC's claims and injunction related to the meeting's originating document, the Notice of Meeting, not to some event subsequent to the proposed meeting.

"So why did WC make PIF incur the expense of the interlocutory proceedings to then just drop them?"

I don't know if they did incur any costs because I haven't read any judgments. It's possible that costs were in the cause (subject to a final finding on costs by the trial judge), and it's probable that if WC lost that the fund would pay anyway (a query to WC would confirm who eventually paid for any costs lost by WC).

"I agree with what you said "I was surprised that the judge didn't press the parties to conclude the legal proceeding before members would meet." By not granting the interlocutory orders, has the Federal Court got itself involved and influenced the outcome? Is it then fair that Dowsett can use anything CasCap did on the day of the 23rd to cancel the meeting? Afterall, it is posible that it was the Federal Courts own actions/inactions that induced CasCap into making the mistakes it was clearly about to make?"

I really should have said that I'm surprised that CasCap and the PIFAG didn't advise members of the risks of going ahead with a meeting in the circumstances. In reality, it's not for the judge to direct entities as to how they should conduct their business activities.

"Wasn't the Federal Court in a position to throw the Interlocutory Action out AND warn CasCap not to proceed? Now we're faced with the prospect that the meeting was invalidly adjourned. Right? "

I would think if the Notice was invalid, then the meeting was illegal and what happened as to the adjournment is really a moot point. It's for the parties to plead the orders sought, not for the judge.

"I'm not sure what the PIF consitution has to say about adjourning the meeting but I can't see anything in Part 2G.4 that puts a time limit on when the meeting must be held. S252K certainly anticipates long adjournments: "When a meeting is adjourned, new notice of the adjourned meeting must be given if the meeting is adjourned for 1 month or more." That's what our democratically elected Federal Government anticipates members doing - adjourn a meeting called by members (under S252D) by more than a month."

Yes, but you have to speak to a meeting which has been legally called, not one with an invalid Notice.

"The requirement to notify ALL investors individually can still be met can't it? There's nothing in S252G that puts a time limit on when the individual notification must occur. S252F does not say the 21 day limit prescribed applies to the individual notification. S252G says "written notice" it does not say "the notice of S252F"."

That logic won't work because the court will read the two sections together in order to give efficacy to the operation of the Act.

"As for quorum. Well. Anyone know what Doewsett says about this?"

I have no idea.
 
Todays NSX announcement page 3:::

Holiday Inn, Gold Coast, Queensland A call option over 31 apartments has been entered into for a period of three months. 63 apartments remain to be sold. $5.68 m


Page 4:Holiday Inn, Surfers Paradise,104 apartments in the Holiday Inn A conditional call option over 31 apartments has been entered into.
On settlement of the 31 apartments, proceeds to the Fund will total $5.68 million.
The balance 73 apartments are for sale.

How many apartments remain to be sold? 63 or 73? 104-31=73
Are these figures deceptive, misleading or just plain old ambiguous??? I get it, someone else apart from WC compiled the update!:D

Plenty of 'conditional' contracts in there, I see we take a $2.57mill (plus outstanding interest) haircut on this one:
Tweed Heads, New South Wales Conditional contract of sale.$7 m Completion due September 2011. When is settlement due?

Lithgow, New South Wales Conditional contract of sale. Due to settle August 2011. On
settlement, proceeds to be returned to the Fund will be $0.25
million. YEEE OUCH!!!! This ones not even a haircut, more like a close shave!!
$1,171,137.00 :bekloppt:

We may or may not get $22mill for Kooralbyn, it owed us around $41mill plus interest three and a half years ago. A big round of applause for WC effort for may or maybe not securing a buyer for less than half of what we are owed on this one?? Just what were those caretakers doing out there? Bunny bashing on the golf course?

Trinder Avenue, Maroochydore, Queensland owed us $14.1 million plus interest nearly SIX years ago!!! Anyones guess as to what we may or may not get back on this one, but don't fret, we did get paid $100,000 up front! The bloody fund could be wound up before we see any return from this one!
Guess we shouldn't complain,'the team has, and will continue, to strive to achieve the best outcome for you in the shortest possible timeframe.'
Well nearly three years on and the PIF worth approx$100mill less (thats not including what was realised to repay the debt) we have been paid two cents of our capital back totalling approx $15million. What happend to the other $85million?????No amount of fancy contracts, 'conditional' or otherwise can hide the fact that this fund has been badly managed, diluted and being quietly liquidated.

Seamisty
 
Duped ..thanks for articulating alot of things far more clearer than I could ever write in response to my queries to asick.

Asick,

Thanks for your response. Perhaps you need to become an investor. Then you may not see things in such a clinical sense.

Most "lay" people when given Straight facts and clear evidence would draw a similar conclusion to me regarding the management of this fund.
Wellingtons management of the PIF and information to ALL of its investors has made me aware that I am not being served one iota.
I want answers ...not just noise.

I hope you realise that everything that is written in todays NSX statement from JH and wc will not be undertaken to achieve a better outcome for investors.
JH has made glowing statements about the fund in the past and every single thing promised has never eventuated.

Over the years Ive seen wedges appear between investors here on this forum. Little did I know that It was the handiwork of wc who were driving investors apart with fake investors and hired protestors. which JH continually says" none of my doing"
Not to mention the fictitious REACTION group letters posted to every investor with an up to date register supplied by Armstrong or the issuance of units a an egm by armstong ...none of JHs doing ...of course!

Because of WC management of the PIF I have come to the conclusion that there are two types of law in this country regarding investors.

Wellingtons law and a law for everyone else. there is Justice for those with law degrees and other peoples money and point of "law" for those without.

Points of law are a mute cause particularly when ethics governance and standards can be so easily manipulated by those aiming to push and test the "law" at someone elses expense simply for their own profit.
 
Todays NSX announcement page 3:::

Holiday Inn, Gold Coast, Queensland A call option over 31 apartments has been entered into for a period of three months. 63 apartments remain to be sold. $5.68 m


Page 4:Holiday Inn, Surfers Paradise,104 apartments in the Holiday Inn A conditional call option over 31 apartments has been entered into.
On settlement of the 31 apartments, proceeds to the Fund will total $5.68 million.
The balance 73 apartments are for sale.

How many apartments remain to be sold? 63 or 73? 104-31=73
Are these figures deceptive, misleading or just plain old ambiguous??? I get it, someone else apart from WC compiled the update!:D

Plenty of 'conditional' contracts in there, I see we take a $2.57mill (plus outstanding interest) haircut on this one:
Tweed Heads, New South Wales Conditional contract of sale.$7 m Completion due September 2011. When is settlement due?

Lithgow, New South Wales Conditional contract of sale. Due to settle August 2011. On
settlement, proceeds to be returned to the Fund will be $0.25
million. YEEE OUCH!!!! This ones not even a haircut, more like a close shave!!
$1,171,137.00 :bekloppt:

We may or may not get $22mill for Kooralbyn, it owed us around $41mill plus interest three and a half years ago. A big round of applause for WC effort for may or maybe not securing a buyer for less than half of what we are owed on this one?? Just what were those caretakers doing out there? Bunny bashing on the golf course?

Trinder Avenue, Maroochydore, Queensland owed us $14.1 million plus interest nearly SIX years ago!!! Anyones guess as to what we may or may not get back on this one, but don't fret, we did get paid $100,000 up front! The bloody fund could be wound up before we see any return from this one!
Guess we shouldn't complain,'the team has, and will continue, to strive to achieve the best outcome for you in the shortest possible timeframe.'
Well nearly three years on and the PIF worth approx$100mill less (thats not including what was realised to repay the debt) we have been paid two cents of our capital back totalling approx $15million. What happend to the other $85million?????No amount of fancy contracts, 'conditional' or otherwise can hide the fact that this fund has been badly managed, diluted and being quietly liquidated.

Seamisty

Seamisty, don't be too hard on WC, they run the fund on a skeleton staff or I should say team of 30, plus consultants and advisors, they are really doing it on a shoestring. I think not. Don't forget the Registry, now there is a shoestring budget.
 
A summary of the page 3 table perhaps seamisty?

Conditional Contract
Call Option
1 settled that WC previously reported sold? 5 still on the market?
1 settled that WC previously reported sold? 15 still on the market?
Conditional Contract
Conditional Contract
Conditional Contract
Conditional Contracts

And one big fat juicy $ number.

I offer the following conditional contract for Kooralbyn. If I win at least $80m in lotto in the next 2 years, I'll buy Kooralbyn for $32M. How's that? We can get that big fat juicy number over the $50m mark.

What are the conditions? Money talks. Guess what walks.
 
There's a few answers in the judgement. I think it proves that Wellington does not have the numbers.
If a quorum requires 51%, (and Wellington has stated that she had), then the meeting would have been legal if she had attended, and she would, by virtue of the proxies, have won all of the proposals.
She probably came down to Sydney, believing that she had them, and had agreed to attend the meeting. However, when she found that she was in the minority she pulled out, and as the PIFAG did not have access to the Wellington held proxies, we could not prove that we had a quorum.
A very clever, ruthless (I am reluctant to use the word) "Lady"

We must now convene another, legal, meeting, and rid ourselves of this pox!
 
The "judgement" seems to be beancounting without any logic!

From the tail end of a judgement:

On Quorum
"The second difficulty with the argument is that s 601FM expressly adopts the procedure prescribed in Div 1 of Pt 2G.4. Although that Division does not contain any provision relating to quorums, meetings called pursuant to that section are subject to s 252R. Section 252R(2) provides:

(1) This section applies to a registered scheme subject to the provisions of the scheme’s constitution.

(2) The quorum for a meeting of registered scheme members is 2 members and the quorum must be present at all times during the meeting"

....further down

"OTHER MATTERS

65 These conclusions make it unnecessary that I consider other matters raised in argument, given the urgent context in which the question of validity of the meeting has arisen. Should the parties wish to pursue these matters further, they should apply accordingly."

Please help my thawing Siberian mind:

Does Judge D seems to say a quorum of 2 was required?
Did we have 2 Unadulterated Members on the floor at both of our tragic abortions?
How gracious of Judge D to throw us a flippancy of "..... they should apply accordingly".
How about clear guidance (yes, from you Judge) for us to do exactly that without the fear of another legal stumble engineered ad hoc?

"The happinnes of most people we know is not ruined by great catastrophes or fatal errors, but by the repetition of slowly destructive little things. Ernest DIMMET"

Regards
 
There's a few answers in the judgement. I think it proves that Wellington does not have the numbers.
If a quorum requires 51%, (and Wellington has stated that she had), then the meeting would have been legal if she had attended, and she would, by virtue of the proxies, have won all of the proposals.
She probably came down to Sydney, believing that she had them, and had agreed to attend the meeting. However, when she found that she was in the minority she pulled out, and as the PIFAG did not have access to the Wellington held proxies, we could not prove that we had a quorum.
A very clever, ruthless (I am reluctant to use the word) "Lady"

We must now convene another, legal, meeting, and rid ourselves of this pox!
JohnH I have had this discussion with many. Hutson waved a fist full of pink poxies saying she had 3,000, all registered by her own registry service, in her own office, where Rachel Weeks, her personal leagal also works from, who is a substantial holder in Armstrong as well. If WC had 3,000 FOR votes in the bag, law of averages according to Armstrongs figures, would indicate that WC should have had enough support on the day of the EGM from her large amount of fans without having to BUY SUPPORT ON THE DAY!!! The majority of PIF unitholders are from NSW. Considering there were approx 250+ individuals attending to support Castlereagh Capital on their own merit, just what was written on those 3,000 pink forms? Makes you seriously wonder if in fact they existed, were they legitimate? Devious comes to mind. Seamisty
 
The judgement says that on the 21 June 2011, the AG tried to come to an agreement with WC to adjourn the 23 June 2011 meeting until issues were resolved but WC declined the proposal, while at the same time WC ask the court to deem the meeting invalid. WC said they want the meeting to go ahead in NSX announcements and yet they didn't turn up to the 23 June meeting and hand over the proxy forms.

A meeting of hired actors is convened on the floor above the legitimate unitholder meeting where they are given 1000 shares each by a former director of Wellington (Wallace was a director of Wellington IM as RE of the PIF). These actors are addressed by Jennifer Hutson (WC director) and David Burke (former MFS director) and told to vote for Wellington. WC say in their NSX announcement that if the meeting had gone ahead (i.e. if Hutson had attended the meeting) there would have been a quorum. How can WC be trusted to hold proxy forms for our fund if they won't even turn up to a unitholder meeting that they tell us is going head!

Here's what Hutson said on the 22nd June 2011 about the meeting:
Jenny Hutson, Chairperson of Wellington Capital as responsible entity of the Premium Income Fund said:
‘it is my view that the ultimate decision making body is the members in general meeting. I look forward to Unitholders having the opportunity to consider the resolutions put forward in the notice of 16 May 2011.’


Talk about saying one thing to the NSX while doing another...
  • WC say there would have been a quorum but won't hand over the proxy forms.
  • WC say they want the meeting to go ahead but ask the court to deem it invalid.
  • WC won't agree to adjourn the meeting and they inform the NSX it is going ahead and then don't show up.
It seems the Interlocutory Hearing on the 22 June was designed to deter legitimate unit holders from attending the meeting on the 23rd while WC had every intention of going ahead with the rent-a-crowd.

Below are interesting extracts from the judgement found here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2011/781.html
"15. On 21 June 2011 the solicitors for the defendants proposed that the parties consent to orders adjourning the meeting scheduled for 23 June 2011 until these proceedings had been resolved.The plaintiff declined the proposal.

16. Mr Macafee, the solicitor acting on behalf of the defendants, attended at the appointed meeting place at about 9.15 am on 23 June 2011. He found Ms Hutson and Mr Armstrong in a meeting room. The second defendant and Ms Weeks, a solicitor from McLean Legal, were also present. That firm was then acting for the plaintiff. Ms Hutson was examining a large pile of proxy reports. Mr Macafee said that the Chairman was entitled to take the chair. He also said that he had made it clear in an email of 22 June 2011 that he thought that it was in the best interests of the unit holders that the meeting be adjourned. He said that Ms Hutson had previously thought that adjournment was in the best interests of unit holders but now proposed that it proceed. Ms Hutson said that she wanted certainty, that she was holding in excess of 3,000 proxy forms and that she proposed not to attend the meeting. It emerged that another meeting was being conducted elsewhere in the building.

18. As I understand it, Ms Hutson was asserting that the meeting had been without a quorum. She did not expressly mention that she had produced this result by not attending to vote the proxies which she was holding. She implied that her non-attendance was attributable to the dispute about the Chairman’s claim to chair the meeting and/or the fact that she was detained against her will.

20. I should, however, say something about the content of the affidavit by xxx, a flight attendant who is attending part-time acting classes. She, in effect, says that she was employed to attend a meeting to be held on 23 June 2011, in the same building as the meeting of unit holders, but on a different floor. Whilst in the building, she received a purported transfer of 1000 units in the Fund from Wallace Solutions Pty Ltd and was invited to keep them or transfer them back to Wallace Solutions. She then attended a meeting which was addressed by Ms Hutson. She said that she needed the votes of those at the meeting in order “to become chair”. There were about 200 people in the room. A man told those attending that they were needed in connection with another meeting “downstairs” in order to make that meeting “fair”. I infer that the other meeting was the adjourned meeting of unit holders. He asked them to sign proxy forms and attend the other meeting to vote for Ms Hutson as chair. Ms xxx did not attend the meeting of unit holders.

21.Ms Hutson agreed that she addressed this “shadow” meeting but said that she did so at the request of a unit holder who claimed to have organized it. Fairly clearly, the defendants were inviting the inference that Ms Hutson was party to the convening of this meeting. However there is no direct evidence to that effect. No doubt, time constraints prevented the parties from investigating the matter further. The allegations are of some concern. The unit holders may have to consider them in connection with the future conduct of the affairs of the Fund. However I do not presently accept that Ms Hutson was involved in whatever scheme was in train, save to the extent that she conceded such involvement.

One thing I recall when Hutson was on the stand, she was asked about the rent-a-crowd and if she thought it was necessary as RE of the fund to investigate this behaviour and she said no.
 
To Simgrund - actually I thought your comments quite inane and not worthy of reply, however, I will refer to the post in that I thought too much effort was made in taking control of the meeting. Strange isn't it? but if J.H. had the chair, you guys would have had the quorum (setting aside the defect in the Notice).
 
Quote DoraNboots "One thing I recall when Hutson was on the stand, she was asked about the rent-a-crowd and if she thought it was necessary as RE of the fund to investigate this behaviour and she said no"
That statement alone should have rung alarm bells in my opinion. Another complaint to ASIC of the current RE putting interests of others before PIF unitholders??? The list is growing.

Ms Hutson states in the NSX announcement today::"I am particularly grateful for the letters, emails and calls of support and encouragement which I have received from you over recent times." Where was that support on the 23rd June if it actually existed?

The PIF AG would also like to thank all of you who supported us in our efforts to remove WC as RE, especially the unitholders who attended the EGM at their own expense who did not need to be bribed, paid or compensated in some way for their loyal support. We know travel arrangements were compromised due to the efforts of Wellington Capital to create confusion relating to the EGM and resulted in penalty costs for many. Thanks also to those who could not attend the EGM but were supportive regardless.We would also like to thank all of you who have offered assistance in helping in any way possible in the future to assist in the removal of WC as RE. To those of you who have had the courage to contact us and say "Hey we got it wrong, please be advised that we are extremely concerned with what went down at the EGM and no longer support WC"(and many more similar stories) thanks also.
We did not need benefactors or actors for support, we already had it.

Seamisty
 
Well, where can we go from here? Surely it's time for ASIC to actually take notice. Do they care about meetings being stacked? By their apparent inactions they give the impression that they don't mind at all.
 
Well, where can we go from here? Surely it's time for ASIC to actually take notice. Do they care about meetings being stacked? By their apparent inactions they give the impression that they don't mind at all.
U bet its time ASIC paid attention to the plight of the PIF selciper, they have only had three and a half years and thousands of complaints, so not sure what it takes to grab their attention? Last time I think it was some adverse media articles, any way I will complain away and encourage others to do like wise. Seamisty
 
Fair enough. But that ---------------------
As for quorum. Well. Anyone know what Doewsett says about this?

Gretings Duped,
Quorum; mentioned it in the earlier post above.
Looks like an own goal.

And it's not Doewsett; it's DOUBTSETT.
Doubt... for getting lost sight of a legitimate claim in the legalese maze of his own making;
Doubt... for leaving masses of confused elderly in continuing despair;
Doubt... for casting shadows on integrity of PIFAG & CasCap;
Doubt... for this legal system to be ever clearly defined;
Doubt... for optimism;
As seamisty says, I could go on and on and on.

And to ASICK: working diligently on post 8354 as requested?
Bear in mind; it's your redemption on this forum.
And with at least one share bought on NSX
(cheaper than 9 cent manna from Jenny) you will go legit.
Jenny's redemption of course is easier.
Make another Mad Move.
Busy machiavelizing another rights issue?
Try to forget to call Investor meeting to approve it, O'K.

Cheers,
 
There's a few answers in the judgement. I think it proves that Wellington does not have the numbers. ------------------------------------
A very clever, ruthless (I am reluctant to use the word) "Lady"

We must now convene another, legal, meeting, and rid ourselves of this pox!

We must go forth, John.
And feel free to adapt Red Terror as a sobriquet for this poxy lady.
Cheers,
 
Well spotted Selciper with "Willful blindness" definition.
I say to all the knockers: try to strech remnants of your consciences to apply this definition to all the ASICS's, Doubtsetts, Parliamentarians and other so called public guardians of this world.
They all seem to have swiped the blinkers off the last nag on the racecourse.

The good people on this thread have nothing to blame themselves for.
The roosters coming to this thread puffing out with their unsolicited insane diatribe
of the "you people.. you guys.." blah blah blah type are doing nothing constructive
(e.g. "I don't know" when asked a pertinent question)
except adding to deception and confusion in the manner of the Malodorous One and the immitators who followed. Stop your imagination for an honest review.
Otherwise just PEEL OFF!
The real PIF AG has made super progress without the proddings of the aforementioned roosters. Horizons are clearing.
And progress continues.

With best regards
 
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