Home Insulation Debacle

[IFocus]

Use polyester batts if you're at all concerned about fibreglass and health. They do the job just as well - only real disadvantage is they're more expensive (though that's not such an issue given the $1200 rebate should cover much of the cost for a typical house anyway).

Got polyester the other month extra $400, hate fibreglass every time I get into a ceiling space with it in.

why anyone would install halogen downlights is something I just don't understand.

Feel the same way


As always Smurf great advice especially this "I also strongly recommend that you get an inspection by a licensed Electrical Contractor (electrician)"

 

[IFocus]

Don't you just love Barnaby I am sure the Libs do

From today's West Aust

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said Mr Garrett should not be allowed to get off scot-free.

"They seem to be thinking that four deaths don't matter, all that matters is the Minister's career," he said.

But Mr Garrett received support from an unlikely source, shadow finance minister Barnaby Joyce, who said the Minister was "not personally responsible in any way, shape or form" for the deaths.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/6797668/roof-insulation-blamed-for-20-house-fires-in-wa/

 

[Smurf1976]

Thanks Smurf1976, (Sorry I deleted my rant)

Apart from the fact I'm wary about man made fibrous insulation, another reason I don't have it in my roof is I prefer to have all wiring exposed for ease of inspection and to keep the areas around my downlights clear. I have spoken to people that have come across blackened insulation around downlights, pretty frightening stuff, luckily for them it was picked up before anything major occurred.

Halogen downlights are designed to pass heat through their rear and into the roof space, thus providing a "cool beam" of light into the room below. That's what the "dichroic" you see mentioned in relation to them means - heat goes backwards, light goes forwards.

In principle, there's nothing wrong with that idea as such. It's beneficial in a warm climate to not be heating the room when the lights are on (and equally it's a waste of energy to not be using the heat given off if you're in a cool climate). And in a high intensity lighting situation or for use in display cabinets etc, not having heat with the light is a real bonus no matter what the weather outside.

The problem is simply that you have a high grade source of heat exposed in the roof. Touch one of these when they're on and, well, you won't try touching one again that's for sure. They're very hot and will readily ignite combustible materials. It's not as bad as a naked flame or a glowing element, but it's certainly hot enough to start a fire if given enough time to heat surrounding materials.

The problem with insulating over them is twofold. Firstly, some types of insulation will themselves burn if exposed to sufficiently high temperatures.

Next problem is the insulation material is intended to impede the flow of heat, that's why you install it in the first place. Now, you have a light that is intended to pass heat through the back and then you put something over it that stops the flow of heat. It's going to end up getting very hot as will the surrounding materials such as timber (which is of course flammable), plasterboard and so on. This is an obvious recipe for disaster.

The situation arises by two basic means. Batts or foam are installed with inadequate clearance (or none at all) and that puts the problem there from day one. The other means is that loose fill, most commonly cellulose (shredded newspaper) blows over the lights (or is installed over them from day one) or gets moved by birds, mice or anything else that happens to be in the roof. And when you realise that roofs are infact quite windy places when there's a strong wind outside, and that shredded newspaper blows about easily, it's readily apparent how this situation can arise.

Then what happens is the heated material (insulation, timber etc) slowly chars away when it gets hot. Then at some point, it's gone too far and finally a flame starts. Then it's all over pretty quickly...

I see someone's on to the danger at last. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/garretts-roofing-fire-admission/story-e6frg6n6-1225829880090

Also it seems my suspicions about what's in the cheap imported insulation may well be correct. http://www.news.com.au/national/peter-garrett-faces-tough-new-questions/story-e6frfkvr-1225829900441

And here's an example of what dodgy electrical wiring in the ceiling can cause. The events of 22nd September 2007 in Hobart CBD... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvTiK8TofFc&NR=1

There's nothing wrong with insulating your roof, indeed it's generally a good idea to improve comfort and reduce energy bills. But like many things, it needs to be done properly using quality materials in order for it to be safe. That it's not being done properly, and cheap materials are being used, is the problem here.

 

[drsmith]

It will be interesting to see how long Peter Garrett can dance to the burning of his own bed.

 

[Julia]

Now he is talking about undertaking an audit of installations. How much is that going to cost? And how much is it going to cost to fix? Where are the guidelines for undertaking the audit/checks (from a safety viewpoint), and how is the faulty installation going to be fixed?

And where are all the people going to come from to do the checking?
I suppose they too, in order to qualify for the job, will have to spend five minutes on the internet filling out a form and sit through a one day 'course'.
The additional cost of all these audits will add many millions to the all up cost of the scheme.

Btw I have had the 3.5 R batts installed and there is absolutely no difference.
House is no hotter or cooler. On the radio news today there was a report that some of the batts imported from China contain formaldehyde.
Does this have a detectable odour? Any way of knowing if such batts are what have been installed?

Seriously considering having them removed, to be frank.

 

[bellenuit]

On the radio news today there was a report that some of the batts imported from China contain formaldehyde.
Does this have a detectable odour?

It must have because the reports that I heard had a spokesman saying the batts "reeked" of formaldehyde.

As to what the odour is like, I can't help there.

 

[Tink]

I am always weary about the word 'free' so never even looked into it.

I dont even know anyone that did.

 

[Aussiejeff]

It will be interesting to see how long Peter Garrett can dance to the burning of his own bed.

Oh, he'll just go and hide away at the Blue Sky mine and contemplate his new mantra...

"You take what you get, you get what you please
Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees
It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Oh, the power and the passion
Oh, the temper of the time
Oh, the power and the passion
Sometimes you've got to take the hardest line"

Power & the Passion - Midnight Oil

 

[kitehigh]

Btw I have had the 3.5 R batts installed and there is absolutely no difference.
House is no hotter or cooler. On the radio news today there was a report that some of the batts imported from China contain formaldehyde.
Does this have a detectable odour? Any way of knowing if such batts are what have been installed?

Seriously considering having them removed, to be frank.

Thanks for sharing your experience Julia, I've been skeptical about insulating my roof as well. Also after reading comments about how the insulation actually holds the heat inside the house has me thinking.
So with insulation the house should take longer to heat up, but once it is hot than it will take a long time for the heat to escape. Not something I would prefer in a hot climate. I'd rather the house cool down quicker at night, when I'm going to be sleeping.

I think I will give the insulation a miss.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Ole Baldy needs to go back to Midnight Oil.

At least when you stuff up with Midnight Oil you can see the flames and put the fire out quickly.

When the roof goes up its a death trap.

Who made this galah a minister?

gg

 

[awg]

Backup power. If you just want to keep the fridge and a couple of lights going during a power failure, get a cheap two-stroke petrol generator from the hardware store for $149 and use that. Go for a quality unit such as Honda etc if it's for more regular use such as a tradesman on building sites. Get a diesel if it's for regular use and weight isn't an issue since diesels use quite a bit less fuel than petrol.

Hi Smurf,

would you happen to know roughly the start-up current that a regular family sized fridge draw when the compressor motor starts?

how well will the small 2.4kw gen units deal with a fridge kicking in?

 

[Smurf1976]

And where are all the people going to come from to do the checking?
I suppose they too, in order to qualify for the job, will have to spend five minutes on the internet filling out a form and sit through a one day 'course'.
The additional cost of all these audits will add many millions to the all up cost of the scheme.

Btw I have had the 3.5 R batts installed and there is absolutely no difference.
House is no hotter or cooler. On the radio news today there was a report that some of the batts imported from China contain formaldehyde.
Does this have a detectable odour? Any way of knowing if such batts are what have been installed?

Seriously considering having them removed, to be frank.

Fundamentally, the issue is one of electrical safety and, to the extent there is a problem, poses an immediate risk of electrocution to anyone who enters (or in some cases simply contacts from the outside) the roof space and/or metallic roof itself. That is the risk with foil products, either sheet foil, foil batts or other materials (fibreglass, foam etc) backed with foil and arises due to the electrical conductivity of aluminium foil.

The risk with non-foil products is thermal / fire. Inppropriately installed, they may cover wiring and/or light fittings which aren't suitably rated to be covered. Wiring can be suitably rated and protected (with fuses / circuit breakers) to enable it to be safely covered with insulation (this is very clearly explained (in technical terms that non-electricians won't likely understand) in AS3000 and AS3008.1 but in many cases the wiring will not be suitably rated.

The other hazard relates to proximity to heater flues (particularly wood (or coal) burning heaters where flue gas temperatures are relatively high) and that is simply a fire hazard risk. A professional wood heater installer, building inspector or someone from your local fire brigade should be able to assess the risk.

In the case of gas or oil heater flues, similar risks apply although clearances tend to be less due to lower flue gas temperatures and smaller diameter flues. Plumbers with a gas fitting license (or a gasfitter) are the relevant trade for questions about these.

So who should inspect? In theory at least, the appropriate people to undertake an inspection is an electrician, electrical engineer or some other person suitably authorised by state electrical regulators (such as your electricity supplier or an Electrical Inspector - though in most cases such people are simply qualified electricians who just happen to be employed by electricity suppliers or safety authorities). They are qualified to assess any issues with wiring, lights being covered (fire risk) and the electrical hazard of conductive (foil) insulation. They aren't really the right people to be assessing heater flues however, but that is simply a matter of clearance and should be readily visible.

Bottom line is that any of those requires extensive training and examination. There are numerous potential hazards to be aware of and in some cases proper circuit loading and protection rating calculations will be required - that's a job for an electrician or engineer, not someone who just did a one day course.

I should add that whilst I am qualified to do the above, I do not do domestic work and have no interest inspecting roofs. I'm not trying to drum up business here.

As for chemicals in the insulation, go into the roof space and see if it smells. Decent insulation doesn't really have any smell at all. Be particularly wary of anything that smells like ammonia or chicken s***.

The quality products made locally are normally either bright pink ("Pink Batts") or bright yellow ("Bradford Gold Batts") in colour. The two products are essentially the same but are produced by rival manufacturers. There may be other local manufacturers with other batt products, but these two are certainly the most common.

The colour is simply that - colouring added to distinguish the product from competitors. In either case they'll be over 100mm thick unless they've been squashed.

The cheap imports I've seen however have been either white or brown and tend to be significantly thinner, sometimes supplied in a roll rather than as batts.

As for whether or not you should have insulation, it does depend on quite a few things. I'd say that anyone living in Tasmania would be outright mad to not want their roof insulated. But if you live in Queensland, don't use air-conditioning and have the windows open all day then there won't be any real benefit.

 

[Smurf1976]

Hi Smurf,

would you happen to know roughly the start-up current that a regular family sized fridge draw when the compressor motor starts?

how well will the small 2.4kw gen units deal with a fridge kicking in?

Somewhere around 7 times normal running current although it does vary.

Small generators won't like this, but for occasional use they'll generally survive so that it doesn't become an issue. The mechanical inertia of the engine is enough to carry it through the motor starting up.

A normal fridge with, say, a 140W motor will just give the generator a bit of a thump but it will work and nothing really bad will happen. But if the fridge has a 500 W motor then I wouldn't try connecting that to one of those small two-stroke generators - get a decent 2kW or larger one that's built farily well.

Also, don't connect variable loads (fridges etc) as well as electronic devices such as computers to the same generator. That's really asking for trouble unless we're talking about an inverter generator (and they're not cheap...).

 

[Julia]

The quality products made locally are normally either bright pink ("Pink Batts") or bright yellow ("Bradford Gold Batts") in colour. The two products are essentially the same but are produced by rival manufacturers. There may be other local manufacturers with other batt products, but these two are certainly the most common.

I have the bright yellow, look about 5 inches thick, no smell, so thanks Smurf, doesn't sound like the dodgy Chinese stuff.

But if you live in Queensland, don't use air-conditioning and have the windows open all day then there won't be any real benefit.

Yes, that's my experience, but I suppose it would be quite unreasonable to expect the ceiling insulation to keep a house cool when all the doors and windows are open all day and night.

Now that it's in I'll see if it makes the house warmer in winter before having it removed. If not, it will be gone. Probably I'm being unreasonably wary, but it took many years before the dangers of asbestos were recognised. For all we know there may be some crap element in the batts which could cause health problems in future.

 

[Smurf1976]

I have the bright yellow, look about 5 inches thick, no smell, so thanks Smurf, doesn't sound like the dodgy Chinese stuff.

Sounds like Bradford "Gold Batts" or another manufacturer which makes "Fat Batts", both of which are coloured yellow and (to the best of my knowledge) made in Australia. They've certainly been around for years.

As for safety, I'm not going to really argue either way there but I'll just note another unrelated example of the sort of health misinformation that is so widespread. It makes it very hard to know what to believe.

Many people would have heard the scare about not re-using PET soft drink bottles (the plastic bottles that Coca Cola etc comes in) for drinking water due to plastic chemicals leaching out if re-used.

Well, well, well... Choice (Australian Consumers Association) has done some research into it and it seems that there's nothing really wrong with the plastic used in those bottles. But it's the plastic in the intentionally re-usable bottles popular with cyclists etc that is actually a real, serious health hazard. So it seems fine to re-use old Coke bottles, but it's not at all a good idea to buy a re-usable plastic water bottle. Plastic codes "3" and "7" are the ones to avoid for contact with food apparently - Coke etc bottles are a safer type of plastic.

So what's safe with insulation? Well that's a damn good question but personally I would think that apart from electrical risks (easily avoidalbe if installed properly), foil couldn't really harm your health in normal use since it's just a sheet of metal sitting there. Polyester would be in the same category as other synthetic materials we fill our homes with (but probably safer since they're in the roof). As for fibreglass - your guess is as good as mine but I sure won't be eating the stuff.

 

[roland]

Talk back radio last night had an electrician call in revealing that he that had been inspecting the insulation of houses in the Marrickville area of Sydney.

Many had foil that tested to be live with 240V, some had staples penetrating the lead in to the house before the switchboard, meaning that even pulling your circuit breakers would not make the roof safe. Also meaning that there was no protection against electricution.

Additionally he found that some placement of the staples where normal expansion and contraction of the wood/staples rendered the problem intermittant. So a test could be carried out with no results only to be unsafe later on.

This guy now is refusing to send his apprentices in any roof that has foil insulation.

Amongst other remarks, he said that he had found insulation installations where the batts looked like the nice thick ones, only to find empty drinks bottles under a thin layer of the material to pad it out.

He also suggested that many houses where fitted with insulation retrieved from stolen and recycled hot water heaters.

 

[drsmith]

Ole Baldy needs to go back to Midnight Oil.

I was thinking exile on Wedding Cake Island but he's allready there, face down.

 

[cutz]

He also suggested that many houses where fitted with insulation retrieved from stolen and recycled hot water heaters.

Yeah right,

That's a good one, it's cheaper to import the crap from OS.

Nothing like talkback to provide some cheap laughs.

(Personally, don't listen to the ****e.)

 

[roland]

Yeah right,

That's a good one, it's cheaper to import the crap from OS.

Nothing like talkback to provide some cheap laughs.

(Personally, don't listen to the ****e.)

I would have thought the same if it weren't for knowing 3 people in the same street that have had their hot water systems stolen whilst they were out - still waiting to be offered one at my local

 

[roland]

This is from the Queensland Governments website: http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/mms/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=63435

"Make sure your installer adheres to the voluntary Australian standards for the manufacture and installation of insulation - seek this confirmation in writing as a verbal guarantee is worthless," he said.

What does "voluntary Australian standards" mean?

Why should the standards be voluntary and not mandatory?