Proposed NEW Anti-Hoon Laws

[Surly]

I had always believed the tenets of law required them to be fair and just.

A law with a punishment based on the vehicle you happen to be in at the time of commiting a crime is neither.

I do not believe any state needs "Hoon Laws" as there are already traffic offences to deal with what is happening. It is another example of nanny state pandering rather than actually putting police on the roads or education of drivers or some REAL attempt at fixing the problem.

If we insist on needing these knee jerk laws the penalties need to be the same for every person. A fine or prison sentence or licence suspension or whatever but the same for every person.

cheers
Surly

 

[Happy]

No big disagreement from me here, but I would like repeat offenders be given penalty bonus something like 100% more penalty every time they re-offend.

Driving without license, jail, to make sure they do not drive while disqualified.

Reckless driver causing death should be treated like murderer.

Should do for starters.

 

[Aussiejeff]

Great Post Aussiejeff, particularly to read about Wanneroo track and the commendable experiences with your son. Interested to know if the desire to 'push it harder' on the local streets is ever a temptation with yourself or your son. Please be honest it is probably one of the 'concerns' that it might give a young bloke too much confidence - on the streets where he is not driving on ideal roads and with a lot of other hazards close by (eg houses, people, cross roads and inexperience drivers.) I appreciate the comments of your trip home, I am more thinking after a few weeks or so. Would it be different if someone only went to the track once or twice?

Hi jbocker. Actually, it would have defeated the whole purpose of our joining the Club in the first place if we had driven straight out on the roads and continued "racing"! Though I couldn't speak for my son, coz I never followed him around late at night into his 17-19 year old phase, though he tells me he only "put the foot down" a couple of times after joining the club and was generally happy to wait for a tuning day to get his relatively SAFE fun. For myself, it was always enough to know another track day (or "tuning day") wasn't too far away. I just had a look at 2009 WA Sporting Car Club calendar and they had 14 "Private Practice Tuning Days" at Barbagallo between Jan & June 2009 - plenty to satisfy any latent urges!

However, I guess the less time somebody spent at tuning days, the more they MIGHT be tempted to put the foot down in the meantime. We couldn't wait for each tuning day to come, though the wallet got a bit hot sometimes!

I have never really been interested in high powered cars, do you know what is on offer for those who drive the standard family car etc. I live in Perth too.

Finally, thanks for the post, you have change my perception on a couple of points.
cheers

Actually, there were plenty of members who would throw a bit of air into the family station wagon's tyres and take it for some laps too! All you needed then (not sure what it is now) is to complete a track day course (basic track courtesy, how to read the flag marshalls etc, track safety, basic track driving with an instructor to see if you can reasonably handle a car), sign an idemnity form (you are on your own if you get injured) and aren't too fussed about your car insurance if you should have a big bingle on track. Minor bingles aren't so bad as you can drive out of the circuit before calling the RAC! You would need to check with them to see what is on offer for yourself. http://www.wascc.com.au/

Cheers,


aj

 

[1q2w3e4r]

All cars here should have delimeters set to 110kph. Okay, it won't stop lower speed deaths, but its a start.

Yes. That heavy handed, broad stroke brush approach will defiantnly lower the road toll.

It has nothing to do with speed, rather driver education. Also, since my car is capable of 300 km/h and thus part of the design process is inherently built into it to operate at that speed, how is it justifiable to "restrict it" and have a "limiter." (not delimiter) set to it? Because a bunch of people aren't capable of operating a motor vehicle in either the correct manner or environment? Limit it to travel at the same speed as grandma's 1970 toyota? Doesn't matter that it probably brakes from 150 kph in less distance than gradma's said toyota does from 100.

Your quite obviously not into cars or motor sport, thats entirely fine. From someone who is however that type of approach doesn't solve anything, especially by way of reducing the road toll. You still get killed when you hit a stationary object when travelling at 110 kph as opposed to 150.

I'd hazard a pretty safe guess I'm in the same camp as AussieJeff, into cars, and motorsport, the Mrs and I drive Euro cars due to the safety and performance aspects and I use them as they are capable of on the race track or at the drag strip. The fastest car I've had and since sold was a modified GTR. It clocked 3.3 seconds to 100 kph and a 96-210km/h time of 7.1 seconds on the way to an 11.0@133 mph (214 km/h) pass in it at Western Sydney International Dragway.

Generally its joe public who gets nabbed speeding or doing something stupid, regardless of how powerful the car is, not the guy or girl who goes out to club events and track days. They don't have any need to drive recklessly or at high speed on the public roads as they have an outlet for it. Most if not all have also done multiple forms of driver training and education.

Ask someone how far it takes to stop a car from 60 km/h in meters. Then ask them how far it takes to stop from 120 km/h. I can guarantee you it doesn't matter if they drive a corolla, XR6, family 4WD or super car. Only those that have been out and had driver training and used their cars to test their limits in a controlled environment will answer that one correctly.

 

[jbocker]

Hi jbocker. Actually, it would have defeated the whole purpose of our joining the Club in the first place if we had driven straight out on the roads and continued "racing"! Though I couldn't speak for my son, coz I never followed him around late at night into his 17-19 year old phase, though he tells me he only "put the foot down" a couple of times after joining the club and was generally happy to wait for a tuning day to get his relatively SAFE fun. For myself, it was always enough to know another track day (or "tuning day") wasn't too far away. I just had a look at 2009 WA Sporting Car Club calendar and they had 14 "Private Practice Tuning Days" at Barbagallo between Jan & June 2009 - plenty to satisfy any latent urges!

However, I guess the less time somebody spent at tuning days, the more they MIGHT be tempted to put the foot down in the meantime. We couldn't wait for each tuning day to come, though the wallet got a bit hot sometimes!




Actually, there were plenty of members who would throw a bit of air into the family station wagon's tyres and take it for some laps too! All you needed then (not sure what it is now) is to complete a track day course (basic track courtesy, how to read the flag marshalls etc, track safety, basic track driving with an instructor to see if you can reasonably handle a car), sign an idemnity form (you are on your own if you get injured) and aren't too fussed about your car insurance if you should have a big bingle on track. Minor bingles aren't so bad as you can drive out of the circuit before calling the RAC! You would need to check with them to see what is on offer for yourself. http://www.wascc.com.au/

Cheers,


aj

Thanks Aussiejeff. I am going to make a few enquiries, I have a son and a couple of girls with lads. Might organise a day out. They are all level headed but you can never learn enough. For most of us who drive, driving is probably the most life threatening thing we do.
I agree with your opening post, but crush the car on the second offence.
That fits in with the 'have it now' lifestyle we live in nowadays, so conversely we should have "lose it now" too... (Im jesting a little on that point, folks). But I dont see the need to let idiots have 3 chances to wipe out our loved ones or anyone else.

 

[Aussiejeff]

Thanks Aussiejeff. I am going to make a few enquiries, I have a son and a couple of girls with lads. Might organise a day out. They are all level headed but you can never learn enough. For most of us who drive, driving is probably the most life threatening thing we do.
I agree with your opening post, but crush the car on the second offence.
That fits in with the 'have it now' lifestyle we live in nowadays, so conversely we should have "lose it now" too... (Im jesting a little on that point, folks). But I dont see the need to let idiots have 3 chances to wipe out our loved ones or anyone else.

Hey, good luck with the enquiries and "bringing up" juniors!

Here's a teaser or two..

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Just slow down a minute all you guys with your laws, classes, etc. etc.

You'll turn Australia in to something like Pommyland where every person is filmed about 60 times a day by all those friggin CTV cameras, and people ignore stupid speed limits and spend 16 hours a day on the slops beating each other up..

The people attending these classes you propose and training will by and large come from functional families.

Many of the prangs are by unfortunates with dysfunctional backgrounds, drug problems.

gg

 

[Aussiejeff]

Just slow down a minute all you guys with your laws, classes, etc. etc.

You'll turn Australia in to something like Pommyland where every person is filmed about 60 times a day by all those friggin CTV cameras, and people ignore stupid speed limits and spend 16 hours a day on the slops beating each other up..

The people attending these classes you propose and training will by and large come from functional families.

Many of the prangs are by unfortunates with dysfunctional backgrounds, drug problems.

gg

LOL

Are you suggesting then gg that all that advanced theory schooling and training that say, private pilots HAVE to go through to be given the privilege of flying is really a waste of time? Maybe pilot licences then should be handed out with the same gay abandon that driver licences are? Hmm.

We all know that since the dawn of time younguns have got themselves into fatal situations that no laws or rules will ever stop. But then again, totally lawless societies have their own peculiar sets of problems!

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

LOL

Are you suggesting then gg that all that advanced theory schooling and training that say, private pilots HAVE to go through to be given the privilege of flying is really a waste of time? Maybe pilot licences then should be handed out with the same gay abandon that driver licences are? Hmm.

We all know that since the dawn of time younguns have got themselves into fatal situations that no laws or rules will ever stop. But then again, totally lawless societies have their own peculiar sets of problems!

There is absolutely no evidence that advanced driver training decreases crashes, mortality or injury amongst drivers.

The idea that it does is a myth propagated by driving schools, trainers, insurance companies and the police.

Have a look at this study.

http://www.cdta.com.au/training_does_not_prevent_crash.php

Training Doesn’t Prevent Crashes

It might seem like an incredible & illogical statement, but it’s true, traditional driver training does not prevent crashes. At the Our Approach page of this web site we discussed the difference between training & education. Certainly, a driver must have a basic amount knowledge & skill to operate the vehicle & pass a license test. These basic requirements are relatively easy to achieve, and most people who are able to graduate become a licensed driver without too much trouble.

It’s what comes next that prevents the biggest challenge.

It’s well known all around the world that younger drivers crash a lot more than older drivers. Because of this, an extensive amount of effort has gone into addressing the ‘young driver problem’.

Next comes the professional driver. The professional driver might drive a heavy vehicle, but most professional drivers tend to use passenger vehicles or light commercial vehicles. Because professional drivers tend to travel much larger distances than ordinary drivers, they have more crashes. Because crashes cost money, professional drivers started receiving some of the very first driver training programs. And, professional drivers still make up the majority of post-license driver training, just about anywhere in the world.

So what happens when you take a group of people (young drivers or professional drivers) and put them through a defensive driving course. Let’s take a look at the evidence...........

If you can find a study that proves otherwise please post it.

gg

 

[GumbyLearner]

Hey, good luck with the enquiries and "bringing up" juniors!

Here's a teaser or two..

Great pics AJ.

 

[jbocker]

Just slow down a minute all you guys with your laws, classes, etc. etc.

You'll turn Australia in to something like Pommyland where every person is filmed about 60 times a day by all those friggin CTV cameras, and people ignore stupid speed limits and spend 16 hours a day on the slops beating each other up..

The people attending these classes you propose and training will by and large come from functional families.

Many of the prangs are by unfortunates with dysfunctional backgrounds, drug problems.

gg

You make good points on dysfunctional/ functional families GG. Oh dear. Still like the idea of crushing the car. Should we add the driver or let them continue to do it themselves.

 

[Aussiejeff]

There is absolutely no evidence that advanced driver training decreases crashes, mortality or injury amongst drivers.

The idea that it does is a myth propagated by driving schools, trainers, insurance companies and the police.

Have a look at this study.

http://www.cdta.com.au/training_does_not_prevent_crash.php



If you can find a study that proves otherwise please post it.

gg

From that very article gg -

People do learn on driver training courses. Generally speaking, driving skills do improve, so to does knowledge. Sadly however, the likelihood of crashing after training does not improve. If you are serious about road safety, you cannot ignore the evidence. The challenge is to identify opportunities for change.

Although the research doesn’t inspire confidence in the driver training process, it doesn’t say training can’t work. Simply that previous attempts, particularly those aimed at enhancing driver skill, haven’t worked. The exciting thing about research is that it helps objectively determine where we, as trainers, have failed. This knowledge helps us identify opportunities for the future.

There is a significant body of evidence that suggests that driver training makes people think more optimistically about their personal chances of crashing. If a person believes that they will be better off than other drivers, they may put less effort into staying safe. This notion of “driver optimism” helps explain why some drivers actually crash more after training, or why other positive effects are negated.

The main thrust of that website & articles is that skill based training alone won't change driving attitudes. I agree. IMO driver psychology also needs a damn good going over to supplement skill training alone for any appreciable effect to ensue. Many of those studies were in the 1980's-1990's. Car design and crash rates have come right down since then, so I'll have to see what up to date studies might be around regarding any "holistic" driver training approaches.

Thx for the link.

aj

 

[Aussiejeff]

Here's a link to Murcott's Driver Training website FAQ's that contains some interesting observations.

http://www.murcotts.com.au/murcotts/home/aboutus/faqs.sok


aj

 

[MACCA350]

Here's a link to Murcott's Driver Training website FAQ's that contains some interesting observations.

http://www.murcotts.com.au/murcotts/home/aboutus/faqs.sok


aj

I find it amusing that throughout that spiel they didn't once answer the question "Does Driver Training Work?" with a simple, concise and definitive YES.


..........but then maybe I'm just cynical

cheers

 

[Mr J]

From that very article gg -



The main thrust of that website & articles is that skill based training alone won't change driving attitudes. I agree. IMO driver psychology also needs a damn good going over to supplement skill training alone for any appreciable effect to ensuej

It's partly psychological (people tend to become overly territorial), but it's mostly a lack of awareness and caution. They play a far greater role in safety on the roads than what advanced driver training would teach. How many accidents are caused by someone exceeding their skill, as opposed to running reds, not checking blindspots, unsafe stopping, tailgating, dangerous turns etc? Most accidents aren't due to driver skill, but driver error (although exceeding skill would also be an error ).

 

[Aussiejeff]

It's partly psychological (people tend to become overly territorial), but it's mostly a lack of awareness and caution. They play a far greater role in safety on the roads than what advanced driver training would teach.

Well, I would argue that to have a "lack of awareness and caution" when driving IS a state of mind issue! Wouldn't you think a soldier who has a tendency to wander onto battlefields with "a lack of awareness and caution" had some sort of psychological flaw requiring urgent attention? Driving on the roads is no different. It IS a battlefield out there and not enough people register that as a fact.

How many accidents are caused by someone exceeding their skill, as opposed to running reds, not checking blindspots, unsafe stopping, tailgating, dangerous turns etc? Most accidents aren't due to driver skill, but driver error (although exceeding skill would also be an error ).

Again, if someone has a predeliction for unsafe practices such as all those you mention (unsafe stopping, tailgating, running reds etc, etc) I would suggest they have a serious psychological flaw that needs to be urgently addressed! The trouble is, no-one wants to admit that psychological profiles might just have some bearing on all of this idiot behaviour. It's just too non-PC!

Honestly, why can't a more holistic approach to driver licencing be trialled, where not only pre-licencing psychological assessment (to identify those who are initially incapable of handling stressful traffic situations) and subsequent "pre-P's" driver stress & behavioural training is part of the education system but driver skill training is also incorporated as learners progress in their attitude & behavioural training?

Most of the reports I have seen on skill based training alone show that within 3 years of completing a single short course of advanced driver training, most young drivers who attend are no better in crashes or offences than non-attendees. Well, with no follow-up training or re-assessment in subsequent years as these youngsters mature psychologically, I am totally unsurprised by those findings. Once more I'll return to the private pilot scenario. You have to have periodic skills and health re-assessments to continue holding a licence. But, for motorists, that sort of monitoring only kicks in when you have turned into an Olde Fart! For eg here is the NSW regs:

For all licence holders, annual medical reviews are required from 75 years of age. This is to ensure that older drivers are medically fit and are able to drive competently and safely.

For car drivers and motocycle riders, from the age of 85 a number of licence options exist. Older drivers and riders can opt to have a modified licence or to undertake an assessment every two years from the age of 85 (ie 85, 87, 91 etc) to hold an unrestricted licence.

Heavy vehicle drivers in licence classes LR, MR, HR and HC will need to undertake annual driving assessments from 80 years of age.

Good grief. No wonder so many truckies are wiping themselves and others out. They are the road equivalent of air cargo pilots and essentially don't have mandatory periodic testing or assessment during their working lives until they reach 80 years of age?

Could you imagine our airline system where pilots never got re-assessed after the initial issue of their licence until THEY reached 75-85 years of age??

Surely if they are so concerned about the road toll for the under 25's, authorities could require similar "stricter" conditions be applied on younger drivers AFTER they get their "P's", up to the age of say, 26 - perhaps a requirement to complete a sanctioned refresher course in road rules/driver behaviour/driver skills every two years as well as pass a basic medical? Then perhaps relax the assessments to every 5 years after that for all drivers up to age 75?

Nah. Too hard. May as well let the "Wild West" mentality rule.

Care for a donut or two?

 

[jbocker]

Well I am appreciating the level of discussion on this thread, well done to to all contributors. A lot of merit is what people have said.

Aussiejeff, looked up the site supplied, thanks, and can see that it is expensive to hire the track. Considering GGs comments, "dysfunctional" families may struggle to organise or pay for such lessons, particularly on an ongoing basis. So your comments on assessments early in a drivers learning and ongoing tests are good points. These would be better organised being govt funded, some of which could be rechannelled from existing funding, giving real education rather than advertising, from fines that are collected etc.

From here, after letting this discussion run a few more days, I am off to chat to a couple of Pollies, armed with this site/thread.

 

[Aussiejeff]

From here, after letting this discussion run a few more days, I am off to chat to a couple of Pollies, armed with this site/thread.

Don't forget to pack your brickbat...

Good luck!

aj

 

[Boggo]

The concept of just handing out licences for life with minimum initial and no recurrent testing or training just does not work... simple.

Yesterday in SA...

January 26, 2010 11:40pm

FOUR people have been killed on the state's roads, including three young men from Mt Compass who died in a horror crash near the town last night.

The Australia Day deaths put SA on track for the worst road toll in a decade.

At 8.45pm three male youths from Mt Compass - 17, 18 and 18 - were killed and a fourth, 17, from Hope Forest, sustained minor injuries when their car ploughed into a tree on Wood Cone Rd, about 600m from Victor Harbor Rd, just south of Mount Compass.

Three hours earlier, a woman, 50, from Murray Bridge, suffered serious head injuries in a car rollover on the Old Princes Hwy, near Monarto.

She was airlifted to the Royal Adelaide Hospital but died a short time later.

The death toll for the year now stands at 19 and includes the death on Monday of a motorcyclist, 46, in Summertown.

If the start to 2010 continues, with 19 deaths per month for the rest of the year, the road toll will climb to 228.

 

[1q2w3e4r]

AAMI offer free driver training if you or a family member hold a policy with them. They must think there is something to it then eh?