Proposed NEW Anti-Hoon Laws

[Garpal Gumnut]

You guys and gals are a bit uni-dimensional and punitive in your approach.

There are many elements in this argument.

Young men
Testosterone
Young women
Alcohol
Illicit substances
Fast cars
Slack laws
Peoples "rights"
Lack of responsibility for one's own actions generally in society.
The small numbers killed by hoons
The disproportionate interest in their crimes by the public.
The media's demonisation of youth who make mistakes.
Chance
Bad luck
Better vehicles than in the past, faster, more responsive in the right hands.

Many of these elements have been around forever and won't change.

I reckon the media make a meal of this and fuel the whole thing.

And the politicians are lickspittles of the media.

gg

 

[Mr J]

I love to drink and drive. That's my pleasure. How dare the authorities restrict it.

Drinking and driving is a little different to a 20-something owning a fast car.

"She took one look at my car...".

Try using your personality instead of a lump of machinery. It still works on the girls worth having.

If someone wants to use their car to get a girl, or is happy with a girl that judges a guy by their car, then what is that to you?

'6 teenagers die from crowding onto a motorbike and riding it at speed' ?

I don't see your point.

F**K pride and joy. This is a serious issue here. Perhaps those 22 year olds will go and find something else to be proud off, like getting their priorities right.

The "serious issue" - which is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things - is a minority acting irresponsibly. Why do you insist on punishing all youngsters for the actions of a minority? This is about as reasonable as banning males from sitting next to unaccompanied children on planes.

If we were to apply your suggestion, someone driving across the Sydney Harbour Bridge at 90km/h in the dead of night would lose their licence for 18 months. Someone driving through a school zone at 60 would not (unless there's a specific rule that I'm not aware of).

Yep. One rule for all. As for school zones, due to the variable speed limits at different times, this is why I am not saying 20kph over the limit.

Was that "one rule for all" sarcastic, or serious? 30km/h over the limit at a certain place at a certain time is completely different to 30km/h over somewhere else at another time.

The reason that the current deterrents haven't been effective yet is because the punishments aren't tough enough.

Ask Americans how well the death penalty or 3-strike system have worked. The ultimate punishments are death, being permanently injured, having to live with deaths etc. These punishments don't deter these acts, so what makes you think slighter harsher normal penalties will be more effective?

Youths have got it easy these days. Their bleatings about freedoms are laughable. Its about time they were reminded about the harsh realities of life.

Yes, youths have got it easier in a time of far stricter enforcement and harsher penalities. If they only knew what the roads were life when their parents were kids.

Do you simply have an axe to grind?

 

[Smurf1976]

"She took one look at my car...".

No offence to those genuinely with a passion for cars, but in my experience I'd say that the vast majority of females attracted to men with fancy cars aren't overly interested in either. There are exceptions of course, but I've seen it all unfold rather a lot of times and it's a very predictable story...

 

[Smurf1976]

The ultimate punishments are death, being permanently injured, having to live with deaths etc. These punishments don't deter these acts, so what makes you think slighter harsher normal penalties will be more effective?

It's not the penalty per se, but rather it's the combination of the penalty and the probability of it being applied.

Going to extremes, but if there was a 50% chance that each individual incident of speeding would result in 6 months in prison then I'd be pretty confident that we won't see too many speeding motorists on either side of the prison fence. But drop the probability to 0.0001% and nobody will worry about it, and motorists will speed, despite the penalty being the same.

I'm not advocating 6 months in prison, but it makes the point. Harsh penalties aren't just about the punishment, they are equally about the probability of the offence actually resulting in that punishment being applied.

 

[Aussiejeff]

We also have to accept the fact that NO form of penalty will stop underage, unlicenced, "bullet-proof-in-their-own-minds" juvenile idiots either.....

THREE teenage girls were seriously injured when a joyride almost ended in tragedy near Wilsons Promontory last night.

Just a week after five teenagers died in an alcohol-fuelled, high-speed crash in Mill Park, ambulance and police officers were again faced with the horror of another smash involving several youths.

The girls - all reportedly aged 15 - were the only occupants of a small sedan that crashed into a concrete power pole on Foley Road, Yanakie, and exploded about 7.30pm.

The force of the impact was so great the pole collapsed.

''They're lucky to be alive. This could have been a triple fatality,'' said Ambulance Victoria spokesman John Mullen.

''But their injuries are serious. They are going to have a long-term effect.''

http://www.theage.com.au/national/crash-girls-lucky-to-be-alive-20100123-mrv1.html

**Note** - A SMALL car travelling at HIGH SPEED!

I guess we have to accept that since these sorts of "unfortunate accidents" involving juveniles have been going on since the dawn of humankind (plenty of kiddies maimed and killed in eons gone by as a result of stupid or miscreant behaviour involving horses and/or carts) that no level of oversight by "modern" societies will ultimately stop these unfortunate events involving today's youngsters. The "school of hard knocks" will still exact a deadly toll.

So many factors involved too, including an all time record lack of father figures or any form of effective discipline for juveniles within so many broken families, plus whole generations of youngsters growing up in a legal system that says "do whatever you like - we won't really punish you". Can we really expect less?

I agree in principle with these tougher anti-hoon laws, but like others have commented, they should also be applied to moronic repeat drug or drink driving affected drivers - many of whom have ridiculous multiple serious charge records - none of whom have ever lost their beloved wheels for such behaviour, but who continue driving (and crashing) their cars while unlicenced.

IMO the new proposed laws ARE a very small step in the right direction, but it still shows today's OZ government's are really only interested in considering politically motivated "kneejerk" & "piecemeal" solutions.

aj

 

[Mr J]

in my experience I'd say that the vast majority of females attracted to men with fancy cars aren't overly interested in either.

My comment was a joke, but it's based in fact as well. A lot of girls do care what car a guy drives (for a variety of reasons). I wasn't making any statement on whether this is a good thing or these are the girls guys should be looking to attract .

I'm not advocating 6 months in prison, but it makes the point. Harsh penalties aren't just about the punishment, they are equally about the probability of the offence actually resulting in that punishment being applied.

Your point is made, but I think the example is too extreme for it to count :. Harsh penalties may have an effect at some point, but how far, and at what cost?

 

[jbocker]

Remember as a young kid belting my brother with a plastic sword. The old man took it off me, and I missed it dearly, I had a lot of harmless fun with it most of the time.
I did eventually earn my sword back, again I was invicible. Eventually my brother copped another whack. The sword was destroyed, and I was grounded. From memory I dont recall ever hitting my brother with anything since (maybe he didnt give me reason to too ). Maybe I just grew up to what responsibility meant
So on that (poor) analogy wrt hooning remove the car long enough for it to hurt (3-6 months) second time destroy it (if its a friends car (s)he is driving impound it for 3 months - teach the friend for loaning his/her car to a dkhead).

As to a stolen car used for hooning (like the poor doctor in Perth, the law has teething problems that will get resolved. Stolen car should be returned promptly although there is some time delay wrt stolen cars being returned anyway.
Good discussion folks on a difficult problem/cure. Somehow the hoon has got to be taught responsibility and you need to keep it simple.

 

[gav]

UBIQUITOUS - Young people pay far too much for car insurance as it is, just because of the actions of a small minority. And I don't see how raising insurance premiums is going to stop hoons from being hoons? If risking their own life (and the lives of others) isn't enough, you think adding a $5k insurance premium will slow them down?

According to health groups, 5400 Australians die of obesity every year. That's triple the deaths on our roads each year! Does this mean we should ban sweets and fatty foods from our supermarkets, close down McDonald's and KFC?

Or if you want to impose $5k insurance premiums on young people (punishing many for the faults of a few), how about adding a $5k tax each financial year to anyone deemed "overweight", so they can contribute to the billions spent on obesity related diseases each year.

Restrictions and fines will not fix the problem at all. People need to take responsibility for their actions.

And your "youths have it easy these days" comment is laughable. All it does is make you sound like a grumpy old fart reminiscing over the "good old days". The same would have been said about the youth when you were young, and the youth before your generation.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

when I was a young man I
Drank too much
Chased girls
Drove too fast
Drove when I was pissed
Got away with it.

Some of my mates didn't.

No amount of legislation will change the behaviour of youth.

All you can do is keep on hammering the messages of doom home, and hope your kids don't do stupid things.

gg

 

[jbocker]

when I was a young man I
Drank too much
Chased girls
Drove too fast
Drove when I was pissed
Got away with it.

Some of my mates didn't.

No amount of legislation will change the behaviour of youth.

All you can do is keep on hammering the messages of doom home, and hope your kids don't do stupid things.

gg

To be prefectly honest GG I confess to doing the same. But I did get caught, Penalty I got did help change my behaviour, it helped me stop doing most stupid things.
Today, I believe youth in the main HAVE changed their behaviour, I believe they are more aware and probably more responsible than most of my generation when we were their age. Of course there are hoons who are not the norm the penalty should be aimed squrely at them for the crime they commit. Not penalise the responsible young for having a high powered car, pay higher insurances etc.
Yep agree entirely keep hammering the message at home.

 

[jbocker]

...


Or if you want to impose $5k insurance premiums on young people (punishing many for the faults of a few), how about adding a $5k tax each financial year to anyone deemed "overweight", so they can contribute to the billions spent on obesity related diseases each year.

Restrictions and fines will not fix the problem at all. People need to take responsibility for their actions.

...

Very good point Gav, there is an insurance premium paid by smokers and YOU pay higher premiums the older you get, if had a heart attack etc maybe a premium should be paid for traffic offenders based on your points, in the form insurances AND higher car registration fees.

(off subject) I wouldnt be surprised if a tax is applied to fatties some time in future.

 

[1q2w3e4r]

Restricting people's freedom? Lets not get melodramatic here. A car is a form of transport. THAT'S ALL. It is not a human right to drive fast/powerful vehicles. I've yet to hear of 22 year old's life being negatively impacted because he/she drives a Corolla instead of a XR6.

It's time these playthings were left for those old enough to respect the power which that they wield. I would guess that there are more irresponsible drivers aged 20 than aged 30. Yes some mature/sensible youngsters will miss out, but thats life as laws cannot be made to suit everybody.

How about making comprehensive insurance compulsory on high powered/fast vehicles, and have insurance premiums at $5k per year for drivers below a certain age - not necessarily 25 years old....maybe 22.

I agree with having a stronger deterrent though, just like drink driving. Speeding at >30k above the speed limit results in instant 18month ban.

That's a simple minded view, by that reasoning a house is simply a means of shelter. Doesn't account for the fact that some live in 1 bedroom studios and others in waterfront houses on Sydney Harbour.

Insurance premiums are high for younger drivers, especially those with "performance cars".

Fact is, speeding doesn't kill, its the impact when you hit something that does. A corolla is just as capable of doing 150 km/h as a sports car.

Driver education is what is severely lacking, restricting cars or access to "high performance" cars isn't a solution. Its about educating people about the limits of vehicles in a controlled environment so they don't experience it on the road. If you want to drive fast, go to a race track or out to WSID or one of the other drag strips.

Power of the vehicles isn't the problem, its the education of drivers and the simplicity of obtaining a licence that is the issue.

 

[Aussiejeff]

Fact is, speeding doesn't kill, its the impact when you hit something that does. A corolla is just as capable of doing 150 km/h as a sports car.

True - to the extent that a speed of 150kph IS achievable by both a sports sedan and a lowly Corolla, except that standard Corolla safety features (suspension, brakes, harnesses, seats, chassis strength, tyres etc, etc) are NOWHERE near as capable of safely stopping or swerving that car in "an emergency" at those speeds, nor offering the occupants a reasonable chance to survive an impact at that speed compared to, say, a standard optioned BMW M3, Porsche or Merc sports sedan etc!! For example, this from Merc's current 2010 E-Class sports sedan specs make enlighteniong reading -

Automatic emergency braking when a collision is imminent.

The well-proven, radar based assistance systems from the S-Class are now also optionally available to E-Class customers. A further development of the long-range radar sensor now has a range of 200 metres (previously 150 metres), and is able to monitor the mid-distance so that dynamic events such as a vehicle ahead suddenly pulling out to overtake can be detected even more effectively. The two wide-angle short-range radar sensors, which have a range of around 30 metres, continue to be included in the system.

The radar-supported systems are able to assist the driver with emergency braking. Their sensors are linked to the Brake Assist PLUS system, which automatically calculates the braking pressure to prevent a collision in critical situations. The driver is given an acoustic and visual warning at the same time. When the brake pedal is depressed, the system immediately activates the calculated level of braking assistance.

If the driver fails to respond to the warnings, the radar system first initiates partial braking action. As a second stage, if there is still no driver response and a collision is unavoidable, emergency braking is initiated. This can considerably lessen the severity of an accident, i.e. the system acts as something like an "electronic crumple zone".

Active bonnet, seven airbags and PRE-SAFE ® as standard

During the course of its development, the new E-Class was subjected to more than 150 high-speed crash tests and a total of more than 17,000 realistic crash simulations. The crumple zone principle invented by the Mercedes safety pioneer B̩la Bar̩nyi has been continuously improved by the engineers in Sindelfingen. The front-end deformation zone of the E-Class acts on four independent levels, and is even more effective than before. The increased use of highest-strength steel alloys also helps to ensure that the bodyshell is able to withstand high impact forces. Around 72 percent of all the body panels are made from these high-tech steels Рyet another unrivalled figure in passenger car development.

With seven airbags as standard, belt tensioners, belt force limiters, crash-responsive head restraints and ISOFIX child seat attachments, the new E-Class has even more extensive safety features than the preceding model. Another new feature is the active bonnet, which is a continuation of many years of commitment to pedestrian protection on the part of Mercedes-Benz. It is standard equipment in the new E-Class. In the event of an impact, a system of springs raises the rear section of the bonnet by 50 millimetres within fractions of a second, thereby increasing the available deformation space. Thanks to the cleverly conceived mechanism, the driver is able to reset the active bonnet to its normal position himself, without visiting a workshop.

Another standard feature is the preventive occupant protection system PRE-SAFE ®. In potentially hazardous situations this reflexively activates precautionary protective measures for the vehicle occupants, so that the seat belts and airbags are able to fulfil their protective function to the full during an impact.

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cach...m+speed+crashes+2010&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

BMW, Audi and other high spec manufacturers are also moving slowly towards this level of inbuilt safety, so, at least SOME manufacturers are making a bit of progress, but generally for the top dollar, non-mainstream models.

Speaking of high speed impacts, have you noticed how many race drivers (F1, Rally, Drag etc) walk away with minor injuries from truly horrendous high speed crashes (many over 200+kph) that TOTALLY and UTTERLY destroy the vehicle - except for one very important piece - the driver/passenger compartment. They generally have NO AIRBAGS fitted!

Surely, the scientific proof beyond any reasonable doubt that big improvements in recent years of reducing driver/passenger compartment crushing in all these thousands of high speed, survivable motorsport crashes is all legislators need to take the next BIG step forward in motor vehicle crash safety for the general population? Clearly, IMO the best way to increase crash survivability under almost ANY circumstance for the mainstream population is for ALL car manufacturers to be FORCED BY LEGISLATION if necessary to significantly beef up passenger compartment crash survivability (much better deformation resistance using beefier roll cage technology etc, better driver/passenger seats and harnesses etc)?

Sure, this WILL add extra weight and cost, but SO WHAT? Most other options that authorities are looking at are "soft" or "cheap" options - and won't ultimately provide anywhere near the beneficial results of significantly beefing up passenger compartment crash strength and survivability in ALL new cars.

Driver education is what is severely lacking, restricting cars or access to "high performance" cars isn't a solution. Its about educating people about the limits of vehicles in a controlled environment so they don't experience it on the road. If you want to drive fast, go to a race track or out to WSID or one of the other drag strips.

Great idea! Totally agree there. Exactly what I did for myself and son shortly after he got his "P's in Perth in 1986. I signed us both up to Wanneroo Sporting Car Club, after which we undertook their basic race driver course and then regularly attended "track days" at Barbagallo Raceway where members could race their street cars alongside the best race machinery in the West at the time (it's a brilliant driver's track, BTW). We swapped drives in his (my old) "modified sports sedan" (a Datsun Skyline with de-tuned 280Z overbore 3.0ltr race motor, race suspension & beefed up brakes - entirely road legal at the time!) and a modified Mazda 626 1.8ltr (again "race" suspension and beefed up brakes). We had some of the best fun ever driving fast "on the edge" with an array of local machinery on the track at the same time, including the likes of club stalwart Brian Smith (Ricciardello Alfa sports sedan). We had some amazing friendly "battles" with the HQ Racing boys - they could outbrake our Skyline (but not the Mazda) at the end of the two straights since they had race slicks to our street rubber-shod cars - but the Skyline could just out-accelerate them and get back past in the straights.

I was proud as punch to see how my son progressed from spinning like a top every lap when he first started driving at track days, to only being 1/2 a sec slower than his old man in that beast, when we left the club in 1994. I have no doubt whatsoever that we both became technically much better drivers for the experience. I still find myself subconsciously looking for "bail-out" areas wherever I drive, in case of some mechanical failure or some idiot launching themselves at me! When you are driving at the limit on a racetrack with high-powered 300kph "beasts" like Smithy blasting past, your self-preservation reflexes certainly turn up a notch!

After those track days, we would be exhausted from the extra G loads and subsequently carefully drive the 50 or so km back to Kelmscott without exceeding the limit - while noting how many other idiots were racing each other in heavy traffic. That is the first thing that hits you when you get back into the traffic on public roads. You feel much less safe than the racetrack you just left, where you had been hitting 200+kph and on the edge, door to door!!

Power of the vehicles isn't the problem, its the education of drivers and the simplicity of obtaining a licence that is the issue.

Too true. I guess what I just waffled on about goes someway to supporting that view too. Which brings this thought to mind - instead of KRudd 'N Co. blowing $AUBillions on empty halls for every school in the land, it may have been better to allocate at least half to building a large number of Federal School Driving Education Centres across the nation? You know, school based centres that would have a small fleet of cars and qualified instructors available to give advanced driver training to 15-16 year olds BEFORE they even get their "P"'s? There are plenty of race tracks that could be used for student track days to give the real budding "petrol heads" the opportunity to impress their peers (more likely a touch of humble pie!) and a taste of the "real thing" that could even lead to motor sport careers if such a national program was linked to motorsport organisations around the country? Who knows, we might even get a new F1 Champ out of it?

Yeah, I know - Pie In The Sky And Pigs Might Fly...

Anyway, my further

 

[UBIQUITOUS]

All cars here should have delimeters set to 110kph. Okay, it won't stop lower speed deaths, but its a start.

 

[explod]

Driver education is what is severely lacking, restricting cars or access to "high performance" cars isn't a solution. Its about educating people about the limits of vehicles in a controlled environment so they don't experience it on the road. If you want to drive fast, go to a race track or out to WSID or one of the other drag strips.

Power of the vehicles isn't the problem, its the education of drivers and the simplicity of obtaining a licence that is the issue.

Absolutely, EDUCATION and the elimination of hoons through breeding/education

Why is a hoon a hoon? lack of education, poor family background. Some come from good backgrounds but family too busy to bring the child (becomeshoon) up properly. My kids were too busy playing sport and involved in other social activities to even think about hooning.

The problems of youth will never be solved by punitive action.

 

[jbocker]

Great Post Aussiejeff, particularly to read about Wanneroo track and the commendable experiences with your son. Interested to know if the desire to 'push it harder' on the local streets is ever a temptation with yourself or your son. Please be honest it is probably one of the 'concerns' that it might give a young bloke too much confidence - on the streets where he is not driving on ideal roads and with a lot of other hazards close by (eg houses, people, cross roads and inexperience drivers.) I appreciate the comments of your trip home, I am more thinking after a few weeks or so. Would it be different if someone only went to the track once or twice?

I have never really been interested in high powered cars, do you know what is on offer for those who drive the standard family car etc. I live in Perth too.

Finally, thanks for the post, you have change my perception on a couple of points.
cheers

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

All cars here should have delimeters set to 110kph. Okay, it won't stop lower speed deaths, but its a start.

so what happens if you want to pass some old geezer doing 95kph on a busy 2 lane road.??

gg

 

[UBIQUITOUS]

so what happens if you want to pass some old geezer doing 95kph on a busy 2 lane road.??

gg

Is it okay to break the speed limit while overtaking?

 

[Happy]

95 k on the road with 100 k speed limit is OK.

I just cannot believe everybody so bent on doing at least speed limit only because it is legal.

No margin of safety for slight slope, accuracy of equipment, wind and probably few more factors contributing to our actual speed.

 

[gav]

so what happens if you want to pass some old geezer doing 95kph on a busy 2 lane road.??

gg

It means you'll be stuck behind Ubiquitous for the next 30km