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Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
It sure would be nice to know whether we are regarded as "special case" if ASIC succeeds. There are lots of other people with their hands out for a share of remaining OCV funds from a pretty small pot. My unhelpful guess is that we should hope for something, but not to be too optimistic. It could be that any potential pay-out to PiF might come from directors' insurances only. Perhaps somebody knows of a precedent if the case is eventually favourable to us.
It sure would be nice to know whether we are regarded as "special case" if ASIC succeeds. There are lots of other people with their hands out for a share of remaining OCV funds from a pretty small pot. My unhelpful guess is that we should hope for something, but not to be too optimistic. It could be that any potential pay-out to PiF might come from directors' insurances only. Perhaps somebody knows of a precedent if the case is eventually favourable to us.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
PIN is in a Trading Halt. But there is no Request for a Halt under PIN Announcements. How does that happen?
PIN is in a Trading Halt. But there is no Request for a Halt under PIN Announcements. How does that happen?
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
No Panic - looks like the whole NSX is on hold.
No Panic - looks like the whole NSX is on hold.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Good day,
Any clues what happened to 3rd Dec directions session at Courts?
Some documents were filed on that day.
And this date is no longer on the list when I opened it yesterday.
regards,
Good day,
Any clues what happened to 3rd Dec directions session at Courts?
Some documents were filed on that day.
And this date is no longer on the list when I opened it yesterday.
regards,
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
I have just.received a reply from Wellington Capital regarding an email I had sent them about the sale of the Wollongong property.
They acknowledge that the sale ..."will enable a cash payment to be made to unitholders of the Premium Income Fund in 2010"
The issue that should be a big concern to all of us is how will we receive this payment...
In the same letter from Wellington Capital they say..
"...at this time we have not been provided with guidance in relation to whether the cash payment will be in the form of a capital return or distribution. This guidance will be given closer to the time that a payment is given to unitholders...."
So how will we be paid...if we receive this as income, that is, a credit from the fund....we will have to pay tax on the income....is the alternative that the fund will have to pay tax on the income? Isn't that us anyway? So why the listing? Would't we be far better off delisting the fund and receiving the what is now classed as income as redemptions with no tax? Is there anybody here that could advise us?
I have just.received a reply from Wellington Capital regarding an email I had sent them about the sale of the Wollongong property.
They acknowledge that the sale ..."will enable a cash payment to be made to unitholders of the Premium Income Fund in 2010"
The issue that should be a big concern to all of us is how will we receive this payment...
In the same letter from Wellington Capital they say..
"...at this time we have not been provided with guidance in relation to whether the cash payment will be in the form of a capital return or distribution. This guidance will be given closer to the time that a payment is given to unitholders...."
So how will we be paid...if we receive this as income, that is, a credit from the fund....we will have to pay tax on the income....is the alternative that the fund will have to pay tax on the income? Isn't that us anyway? So why the listing? Would't we be far better off delisting the fund and receiving the what is now classed as income as redemptions with no tax? Is there anybody here that could advise us?
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Thanks k.smith, as usual, the answer you get from WC results in more questions! I am so over WC and their non commital responses and open ended promises that to date have delivered PIF investors ZIP!!! I seriously question the continuation of PIF as a going concern under our current management. What is the cut off point where our assets are so eroded to cover WC inoperating expenses (which I was told on several occasions by WC hotline staff were being met by WC staff) that it will be impossible to deliver the return of PIF unit value in a 3-5 year time frame??When is JENNY HUTSON of WELLINGTON CAPITAL going to reassess her unfulfilled promises and come clean??? Payments from income?? What income?? Any profitable assets have been sold and absorbed. And exactly when in 2010 will we see a return of our capital?? Not forgetting we were promised the same in Oct 2008? IMO = in my opinion, WC has not and will not deliver and like milk, their use by date is questionable. Any one still have faith in WC??? Seamisty
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Seamisty, there is more movement at the station!
From the daily list of applications before the Brisbane Supreme Court on Monday: APPLICATIONS TO COURT
10:00AM– The list of applications will be called over in COURT 5 FLOOR 1 for allocation to a Judge and an order of hearing will be indicated for contested matters. Practitioners should be prepared to deal with adjournment and consent orders immediately before the callover of contested matters.
AUSTRALIAN SECURITIES AND INVESTMENTS COMMISSION -V- MANAGED INVESTMENTS LIMITED & others 10:00 AM Monday 7 December 2009
This application is in addition to the ASIC application lodged on 29/10/09.
Managed Investments is the MFS/Octaviar company which transfered PIF to WC. MI is a respondent to the ASIC action.
The first directions hearing is also on in the Brisbane Supreme Court on Monday. I wonder if this is also over a problem with obtaining documents?
Seamisty, there is more movement at the station!
From the daily list of applications before the Brisbane Supreme Court on Monday: APPLICATIONS TO COURT
10:00AM– The list of applications will be called over in COURT 5 FLOOR 1 for allocation to a Judge and an order of hearing will be indicated for contested matters. Practitioners should be prepared to deal with adjournment and consent orders immediately before the callover of contested matters.
AUSTRALIAN SECURITIES AND INVESTMENTS COMMISSION -V- MANAGED INVESTMENTS LIMITED & others 10:00 AM Monday 7 December 2009
This application is in addition to the ASIC application lodged on 29/10/09.
Managed Investments is the MFS/Octaviar company which transfered PIF to WC. MI is a respondent to the ASIC action.
The first directions hearing is also on in the Brisbane Supreme Court on Monday. I wonder if this is also over a problem with obtaining documents?
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
MARCOM!!!! Thanks for keeping a close watch and consistantly informing us all on PIF related court activity. Well this latest action is VERY INTERESTING. I am sure all will be revealed in due course. Regards, Seamisty
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Seamisty -
From a position of weakness, a majority of PIF investors in 2008 voted in favour of a new regime. Any doubts were cast aside and the rosy future that was outlined gave everyone hope. In effect, we were unwittingly voting to be shunted into a thick fog.
For example, the NSX listing (few investors really wanted it) has been a massive flop. You can hardly say that it has provided any solution for us. And one could go on about the list of continuing disappointments - but we all know what they are, so I’ll just say bluntly, ”Give ‘em the flick.” Of course, there may be strategic legal reasons for not doing so now. That’s for the experts to decide.
Seamisty -
From a position of weakness, a majority of PIF investors in 2008 voted in favour of a new regime. Any doubts were cast aside and the rosy future that was outlined gave everyone hope. In effect, we were unwittingly voting to be shunted into a thick fog.
For example, the NSX listing (few investors really wanted it) has been a massive flop. You can hardly say that it has provided any solution for us. And one could go on about the list of continuing disappointments - but we all know what they are, so I’ll just say bluntly, ”Give ‘em the flick.” Of course, there may be strategic legal reasons for not doing so now. That’s for the experts to decide.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
With regard to all cash payments by the fund to members, we really need advice on these scenarios, imo...both from the manager and from an independent source.....
(1) If payments are made as 'distributions' then what are the
tax considerations for :-
(a ) members, and;
(b ) the fund.
(2) If payments are made as 'Capital Returns' then what are the
tax considerations for :-
(a ) members, and;
(b ) the fund.
With regard to the offer at $0.45c, why can't the offer be converted
to a pro rata payment at $0.45c.?
In this way all members have access to cash and all members interests in the fund remain proportionally the same, so we would all be treated equally.
With regard to all cash payments by the fund to members, we really need advice on these scenarios, imo...both from the manager and from an independent source.....
(1) If payments are made as 'distributions' then what are the
tax considerations for :-
(a ) members, and;
(b ) the fund.
(2) If payments are made as 'Capital Returns' then what are the
tax considerations for :-
(a ) members, and;
(b ) the fund.
With regard to the offer at $0.45c, why can't the offer be converted
to a pro rata payment at $0.45c.?
In this way all members have access to cash and all members interests in the fund remain proportionally the same, so we would all be treated equally.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
K. Smith - How we can mange to ensure members' interests come first is a real challenge. You wrote "With regard to the offer at $0.45c, why can't the offer be converted
to a pro rata payment at $0.45c.?"
I seem to have missed something. Would you kindly explain more about the 0.45 cents proposition? Is it the once-touted buyback which, I thought, had was abandoned?. Thanks.
K. Smith - How we can mange to ensure members' interests come first is a real challenge. You wrote "With regard to the offer at $0.45c, why can't the offer be converted
to a pro rata payment at $0.45c.?"
I seem to have missed something. Would you kindly explain more about the 0.45 cents proposition? Is it the once-touted buyback which, I thought, had was abandoned?. Thanks.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Hi Selciper,
Below is the link to WC update from 31st August, and the section therein that relates to the buyback
http://www.newpif.com.au/investor_updates/InvestorUpdate_310809.pdf
"....one of the resolutions passed at last year's extraordinary general meeting
of Unitholders was the buyback of units..........
.....while management is still of the opinion that the buyback is a valid strategy that will benefit a number of unitholders, it is a secondary strategy to that of generating a cash payment in the near term...
....Overall, the Fund's particular circumstances and the broader economic situation are not conductive to the anticipated buy back at present, or in the immediate future....."
Because the buyback was one of the resolutions that we voted on last year, I believe it will eventually come onto the agenda again....they still are of the opinion that it is a valid stategy.
The issue is that we are all forever living in hope that we will get our money back, but if we start getting a small percentage of our money back,( from either cash distributions and or the buyback proposal) and we then have to pay tax on that small percentage, wouldn't we then compound our losses even further? Would we be better to get our money back as a return of our own capital investment, which would then not be income, and thus not taxed?
Shouldn't we be advised re all tax implications before the deed is done, rather than after the event?
Hi Selciper,
Below is the link to WC update from 31st August, and the section therein that relates to the buyback
http://www.newpif.com.au/investor_updates/InvestorUpdate_310809.pdf
"....one of the resolutions passed at last year's extraordinary general meeting
of Unitholders was the buyback of units..........
.....while management is still of the opinion that the buyback is a valid strategy that will benefit a number of unitholders, it is a secondary strategy to that of generating a cash payment in the near term...
....Overall, the Fund's particular circumstances and the broader economic situation are not conductive to the anticipated buy back at present, or in the immediate future....."
Because the buyback was one of the resolutions that we voted on last year, I believe it will eventually come onto the agenda again....they still are of the opinion that it is a valid stategy.
The issue is that we are all forever living in hope that we will get our money back, but if we start getting a small percentage of our money back,( from either cash distributions and or the buyback proposal) and we then have to pay tax on that small percentage, wouldn't we then compound our losses even further? Would we be better to get our money back as a return of our own capital investment, which would then not be income, and thus not taxed?
Shouldn't we be advised re all tax implications before the deed is done, rather than after the event?
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
The resolutions you passed on (page 3 of the explanatory memorandum):-
"... The responsible entity proposes three separate resolutions. Each resolution is independent. If all three resolutions are approved:
The Fund will remain a going concern and Units in the Fund will be able to be traded on the NSX;
Up to 37.75 million units in the Fund will be redeemed by the Fund at 45 cents per unit by 18 September 2009; Wellington Capital Limited will be the new responsible entity of the Fund; and
Cash payments totalling 3 cents per Unit will be made to Unitholders by 24 December 2008 and quarterly thereafter, with the first payment to be made in October 2008. ..."
If you think that the manager is able to renege on the $37.75m then it would seem to me that you may as well say that investors can renege on W.C. being manager - I can't see how it's possible that you're not given the money - it's yours and it was promised to you.
W.C. made a representation on you which you relied - you voted for them on the redemption of the units and the 3% payments - they are in fact promises by the manager, promises which have been defaulted on - could it be that if you do nothing, then you have been said to have waived your rights to sue in breach?
Ok, so, the manager will take more time to amass the money, but I would think members should be able to press for part-payments as and when sufficient spare cash is amassed within the fund. I'd guess that most of you would want to see excess cash come to you and not stay in the fund.
Why don't you guys get some legal advice from a professional on this issue if you're unsure of where you stand?
On Page 57 W.C. states (in part):-
"... Cash Payments to Unitholders
The amounts paid to Unitholders for accounting purposes are treated as a financing cost expense. For taxation purposes, these payments continue to represent distributions under the Income Tax Assessment Act.
Unitholder entitlements have been recognised on an accrual basis. ..."
Any cash payments to unit holders will be classed as 'income' to each unitholder - that is, taxable - so, your impaired capital is coming back taxable - if you're happy about that, then so be it - but I'm sure you won't be if you have a lot invested, or if you're already paying tax.
On Page 59:'
"... 6.4 Cash payments
The responsible entity intends to make cash payments to Unitholders totalling 3 cents per Unit with the first payment to be made in October 2008, the second in December 2008 and thereafter quarterly.
Due to the significant impairment recognised at 31 May 2008 it is anticipated that the cash distribution will be a capital repayment and tax deferred. See section 9 in relation to taxation issues. ..."
Your manager sent this to K. Smith, "...at this time we have not been provided with guidance in relation to whether the cash payment will be in the form of a capital return or distribution. This guidance will be given closer to the time that a payment is given to unitholders...."
So, it seems your manager of over 12 months doesn't know whether you should be paid as 'a tax-deferred capital payment' or a taxable distribution (financing cost to the fund). It seems to me to be a big shift between a tax deferred position and a taxable position.
Wouldn't you think it is straight-forward? It seems to me that some income tax advice is needed on these items. It might be nothing, or it might be a real big headache for the lot of you.
Again, sorry to butt in (again), but it seems to me to be a really important issue.
Listing a properly working fund with income is one thing, but listing a badly impaired fund with no income is quite another - I find it amazing that you only get some of your decimated capital back, and it may all be classed as income on which tax may or may not be payable.
Corporations Act s. 601FC(1)(d) provides that unit holders must be treated equally, but if some have to pay tax and others do not have to, then as far as I can see, they don't seem to be treated equally.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s601fc.html
PS. You must seek professional legal advice before acting on anything contained in this posting - I am not qualified to give either legal or taxation advice - my comments come from personal experiences only.
The resolutions you passed on (page 3 of the explanatory memorandum):-
"... The responsible entity proposes three separate resolutions. Each resolution is independent. If all three resolutions are approved:
The Fund will remain a going concern and Units in the Fund will be able to be traded on the NSX;
Up to 37.75 million units in the Fund will be redeemed by the Fund at 45 cents per unit by 18 September 2009; Wellington Capital Limited will be the new responsible entity of the Fund; and
Cash payments totalling 3 cents per Unit will be made to Unitholders by 24 December 2008 and quarterly thereafter, with the first payment to be made in October 2008. ..."
If you think that the manager is able to renege on the $37.75m then it would seem to me that you may as well say that investors can renege on W.C. being manager - I can't see how it's possible that you're not given the money - it's yours and it was promised to you.
W.C. made a representation on you which you relied - you voted for them on the redemption of the units and the 3% payments - they are in fact promises by the manager, promises which have been defaulted on - could it be that if you do nothing, then you have been said to have waived your rights to sue in breach?
Ok, so, the manager will take more time to amass the money, but I would think members should be able to press for part-payments as and when sufficient spare cash is amassed within the fund. I'd guess that most of you would want to see excess cash come to you and not stay in the fund.
Why don't you guys get some legal advice from a professional on this issue if you're unsure of where you stand?
On Page 57 W.C. states (in part):-
"... Cash Payments to Unitholders
The amounts paid to Unitholders for accounting purposes are treated as a financing cost expense. For taxation purposes, these payments continue to represent distributions under the Income Tax Assessment Act.
Unitholder entitlements have been recognised on an accrual basis. ..."
Any cash payments to unit holders will be classed as 'income' to each unitholder - that is, taxable - so, your impaired capital is coming back taxable - if you're happy about that, then so be it - but I'm sure you won't be if you have a lot invested, or if you're already paying tax.
On Page 59:'
"... 6.4 Cash payments
The responsible entity intends to make cash payments to Unitholders totalling 3 cents per Unit with the first payment to be made in October 2008, the second in December 2008 and thereafter quarterly.
Due to the significant impairment recognised at 31 May 2008 it is anticipated that the cash distribution will be a capital repayment and tax deferred. See section 9 in relation to taxation issues. ..."
Your manager sent this to K. Smith, "...at this time we have not been provided with guidance in relation to whether the cash payment will be in the form of a capital return or distribution. This guidance will be given closer to the time that a payment is given to unitholders...."
So, it seems your manager of over 12 months doesn't know whether you should be paid as 'a tax-deferred capital payment' or a taxable distribution (financing cost to the fund). It seems to me to be a big shift between a tax deferred position and a taxable position.
Wouldn't you think it is straight-forward? It seems to me that some income tax advice is needed on these items. It might be nothing, or it might be a real big headache for the lot of you.
Again, sorry to butt in (again), but it seems to me to be a really important issue.
Listing a properly working fund with income is one thing, but listing a badly impaired fund with no income is quite another - I find it amazing that you only get some of your decimated capital back, and it may all be classed as income on which tax may or may not be payable.
Corporations Act s. 601FC(1)(d) provides that unit holders must be treated equally, but if some have to pay tax and others do not have to, then as far as I can see, they don't seem to be treated equally.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/s601fc.html
PS. You must seek professional legal advice before acting on anything contained in this posting - I am not qualified to give either legal or taxation advice - my comments come from personal experiences only.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Yep, selciper, and I recall that a few of us who were prepared to back WC and JH also said that if in 12 months investors weren't happy we would review the the RE management situation. I continually ask on this thread if there are any PIF investors who still think JH will deliver on the BS offered to us that 'encouraged' us to vote for her but no support appears to be forthcoming so I take that as a 'NO' vote of confidence. I strongly suspect JH is otherwise occupied with court appearances, providing legal documentation and representation and pleading her case to ASIC and the Supreme Court etc to expect any transparent PIF investor related updates. I hope there is a comprehensive list of LEGAL FEES being accrued so that we know which PIF is accountable for and which WELLINGTON CAPITAL investmnet management should be responsible for! I assume these fees are being monitored in house, because I can assure you that the 'small number of 'diehard's' who held misconceived grudges against either WC or JH', who are a minor annoyance which most people wouldn't bother reading as it was too negative and had little impact who also 'constantly waffle on with the same old negative recycled rhetoric' are constantly on the case 'outhouse' (doesn't outhouse and WC have something in common?) Anyway, to cut the waffle short I am sure the next few weeks will be interesting and I for one will not be spending any promised income, distribution or return of capital from WC before Xmas because I strongly believe this Xmas will be much the same as the last one and Santas stocking will be empty. Seamisty
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Hi All. Like Zeva & Hogan we have never posted before but once asked to stand up & 'be counted' here we are. 100,000. I'm sure there are many others who love to read all the posts & be kept updated but don't feel they have anything as valuable to contribute as all the smart savvy tireless workers that write so often here. Without this we would know absolutely nothing. I'm sure I'm speaking for many others when I thank the contributors for their fantastic efforts & investigations & postings.
The 100,000 Units are my 85 year old Dad's. It's 100% of his wealth, well what was his wealth. Needless to say the events that have passed have gravely affected his health. He continually talks about 'selling' and I'm not sure what he means. Can he sell at any time on the stock market & what would he get at this week's rate? Would this be a wise option, given his age? Anyone like to be brave enough to say there is a possibility (probability?) of any light at the end of this tunnel? Is there any reason to be more optimistic this month than say 3 months ago? What would you recommend to your Dad?
Any opinions welcome & once again thanks to the contributors who have not just taken this littany of mismanagement lying down. It's not just about the theft of money, its also about the right to be treated fairly and with honesty & integrity. Please don't stop until the dishonest are singled out & punished so they can't cause the same grief to others. You guys are GREAT!!!!
Hi All. Like Zeva & Hogan we have never posted before but once asked to stand up & 'be counted' here we are. 100,000. I'm sure there are many others who love to read all the posts & be kept updated but don't feel they have anything as valuable to contribute as all the smart savvy tireless workers that write so often here. Without this we would know absolutely nothing. I'm sure I'm speaking for many others when I thank the contributors for their fantastic efforts & investigations & postings.
The 100,000 Units are my 85 year old Dad's. It's 100% of his wealth, well what was his wealth. Needless to say the events that have passed have gravely affected his health. He continually talks about 'selling' and I'm not sure what he means. Can he sell at any time on the stock market & what would he get at this week's rate? Would this be a wise option, given his age? Anyone like to be brave enough to say there is a possibility (probability?) of any light at the end of this tunnel? Is there any reason to be more optimistic this month than say 3 months ago? What would you recommend to your Dad?
Any opinions welcome & once again thanks to the contributors who have not just taken this littany of mismanagement lying down. It's not just about the theft of money, its also about the right to be treated fairly and with honesty & integrity. Please don't stop until the dishonest are singled out & punished so they can't cause the same grief to others. You guys are GREAT!!!!
