Julia
In Memoriam
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Ah, silly me. I forgot about the loans. Thanks, Steve.
Storm Financial Group
- Thread starter Garpal Gumnut
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Julia
Easy to forget about them because of course they were 'claytons' loans and not really a debt at all. Simply a mechanism to convert lazy equity into chickens on the journey to capitalism.
Hi all,
Much has been said about the people who had multi-million portfolios.
But does anyone know how many of the Storm clients had multi-million portfolios?
How many, like myself, are just communal garden plebs who owed $400K?
I've met many Storm clients, and just one of those had a portfolio of over
$1M.
On reflection, knowing that 20/20 hindsight is always perfect, I would not have become involved with Storm.
I truly believed that we were paying for good advice. I truly believe that we paid a lot of money for the 'best' advice.
Was I stupid? Yes, I truly was.
Was I duped? Yes, I truly was.
Do I think that there were greedy people who invested with Storm? Yes, I do.
I've never been rich. I've no aspirations to becoming rich. I just wanted for our retirement to be 'comfortable'. We don't want a boat, a condo, holidays overseas, whatever.
We got into Storm because we were suffering from a lot of cold calls from financial advice people who knew everything about our financial status.
In the end, I asked our accountant for advice. I thought that if we were getting all these 'cold calls' from people who 'knew' what our financial position was, (and we checked them out, they were shysters!), that maybe we needed to seek financial advice about our future.
Our accountant told us to contact Storm. We trusted our accountant. We thought that his advice would be sound. He recommended Storm.
We contacted Storm, and from the first conversation I had with a Storm adviser, I felt that they knew where we were financially, and that our best interests were their main concern.
Now? Well obviously I know that they were singing a party song. I know that I have taken my family into a very terrible place.
Was I stupid? Yes, I was very stupid. Was I greedy? No, I still don't think so. I will have to live with my stupidity for the rest of my life. Worst, my family will have to live with my stupidity for the rest of their lives.
To be perfectly honest? I am sick of fighting the banks. I am ready to give up now, and to say okay, I worked my whole life, my wife worked her whole life, we have denied ourselves many things that we wanted to make sure that we would not have to survive on a government pension, but hey that's okay, leave us with nothing, but please give me back my sanity, please tell me that I am not responsible for taking my family to this very terrible situation that we find ourselves in.
For every multi-millionaire Storm client, how many are like me, the lowly person who has taken his family to ruin for $400K?
Much has been said about the people who had multi-million portfolios.
But does anyone know how many of the Storm clients had multi-million portfolios?
How many, like myself, are just communal garden plebs who owed $400K?
I've met many Storm clients, and just one of those had a portfolio of over
$1M.
On reflection, knowing that 20/20 hindsight is always perfect, I would not have become involved with Storm.
I truly believed that we were paying for good advice. I truly believe that we paid a lot of money for the 'best' advice.
Was I stupid? Yes, I truly was.
Was I duped? Yes, I truly was.
Do I think that there were greedy people who invested with Storm? Yes, I do.
I've never been rich. I've no aspirations to becoming rich. I just wanted for our retirement to be 'comfortable'. We don't want a boat, a condo, holidays overseas, whatever.
We got into Storm because we were suffering from a lot of cold calls from financial advice people who knew everything about our financial status.
In the end, I asked our accountant for advice. I thought that if we were getting all these 'cold calls' from people who 'knew' what our financial position was, (and we checked them out, they were shysters!), that maybe we needed to seek financial advice about our future.
Our accountant told us to contact Storm. We trusted our accountant. We thought that his advice would be sound. He recommended Storm.
We contacted Storm, and from the first conversation I had with a Storm adviser, I felt that they knew where we were financially, and that our best interests were their main concern.
Now? Well obviously I know that they were singing a party song. I know that I have taken my family into a very terrible place.
Was I stupid? Yes, I was very stupid. Was I greedy? No, I still don't think so. I will have to live with my stupidity for the rest of my life. Worst, my family will have to live with my stupidity for the rest of their lives.
To be perfectly honest? I am sick of fighting the banks. I am ready to give up now, and to say okay, I worked my whole life, my wife worked her whole life, we have denied ourselves many things that we wanted to make sure that we would not have to survive on a government pension, but hey that's okay, leave us with nothing, but please give me back my sanity, please tell me that I am not responsible for taking my family to this very terrible situation that we find ourselves in.
For every multi-millionaire Storm client, how many are like me, the lowly person who has taken his family to ruin for $400K?
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"More Storm waves as client tells of empty assurances"
"A FORMER north-Queensland cane farmer has recalled how the founder of failed advisory firm Storm Financial assured him the company maintained close contact with lenders to protect investors from losses.
Bruce Milburn told a Federal Court hearing in Brisbane yesterday he was left with a $300,000 debt he could not repay because Commonwealth Bank failed to issue a margin call before his loan slipped into negative equity late last year."
More by Daniel Hurst and Eric Johnston from The Age here;
http://www.theage.com.au/business/more-storm-waves-as-client-tells-of-empty-assurances-20090930-gcs9.html
"A FORMER north-Queensland cane farmer has recalled how the founder of failed advisory firm Storm Financial assured him the company maintained close contact with lenders to protect investors from losses.
Bruce Milburn told a Federal Court hearing in Brisbane yesterday he was left with a $300,000 debt he could not repay because Commonwealth Bank failed to issue a margin call before his loan slipped into negative equity late last year."
More by Daniel Hurst and Eric Johnston from The Age here;
http://www.theage.com.au/business/more-storm-waves-as-client-tells-of-empty-assurances-20090930-gcs9.html
Please dont give in now it has been such a long fight and just maybe it will all end soon, I think the worse is over you just have to stay sane a little longer.
Get angry for a while I know I do every now and then I rant and rave particularly when "people can't remember" I vent my spleen to the heavens and then that makes me more determined to keep going. If you give up then "they" win and my God I will keep fighting to the bitter end.
These people are corrupt, how would you have ever known?
It never would have entered my mind that organisations and banking institutions would behave like this.
Guess what you don't know, what you don't know. You will know next time to be wary, alarm bells will ring but for the moment just see this through to the end.
I know you are tired, my soul is tired too, but just say to your self I can do this till the end of the year, maybe just a little longer but dont give in.
Keep fighting the fight till that bell rings.
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shibby, well said.
Sure Manny has studied the lives of the rich and dishonest and got his line "I don't remember" from Alan Bond, who used it as part of his phoenix like evading of justice when he appearted in court (may have worn the stripes, but didn't his family pay a few million to ease the billions owed.
Interesting quote from recent story
by Paul Clitheroe | 29th September 2009
". . . .the ACCC, estimates that around one in 20 of us will fall victim to a scam this year, costing the community over $1 billion. Moreover, the ACCC is warning that tighter economic conditions could create a boom for con artists as the growing number of people facing financial stress become more open to the prospect of making a fast dollar."
Am going to watch EC & JC's path from here on in . . . if he ever opens another business many of us wil picket it, as not much else to do when on the aged pension . . . .
Interesting quote from recent story
by Paul Clitheroe | 29th September 2009
". . . .the ACCC, estimates that around one in 20 of us will fall victim to a scam this year, costing the community over $1 billion. Moreover, the ACCC is warning that tighter economic conditions could create a boom for con artists as the growing number of people facing financial stress become more open to the prospect of making a fast dollar."
Am going to watch EC & JC's path from here on in . . . if he ever opens another business many of us wil picket it, as not much else to do when on the aged pension . . . .
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gg, although I did notice a little skip in Mr Upton's step as he left the Hearing and headed down George St with his assitant.
Maybe there is a lot more to come...
Mindstorm
I have so much I would like to say to you about accountants getting kickbacks from financial advisors and/or property developers.
You canot trust people just because they are an accountant, I learnt this through personal experience too.
I once spent $60 on a taxi ride to the boondocks of Brisbane from the airport to check out the property we were nearly suckered into buying by our accountant - who tried to convince us it was the best thing to do financially but was in fact getting kickbacks from the developer.
(I lived in the NT in a mining town at the time, and was considered a good target by the shonky accountant and the shonky property developer and all the other mongrels that cold called - as were all the other miners).
However, after I saw the illustrious property with my own eyes, and phoned many real estate agents in Brisbane on my return home (who all laughed at the property's outrageously high price considering the whole place was reclaimed land) I told the developer I would not be signing after all.
The man did not leave me alone for weeks and weeks, it was so hard to resist the pressure, which included using the old trick of trying to instil FEAR and/or GREED into the punter.
I resisted and I told him to get stuffed. That was over 20 years ago.
You were scammed Mindstorm and I perfectly understand how you feel. Nobody likes to realise they fell for a conman but need to understand how it happened. As I said, the oldest trick in the book is to instil FEAR (of missing out) and/or GREED into the punter.
I have been conned twice in my business and lost money and I was really, really angry about it. I liked to think I was smarter than that - especially as I had successfully avoided the property developer scam years earlier.
I am so sorry you are up against the wall because of these con artists known as STORM FINANCIAL, including all the scummy advisors associated with Storm. You are most probably working very hard to keep a roof over your head and food on the table, not as comfortable as you were before Storm. I wish you all the best with what you now have to do.
If you have children though Mindstorm, YOU are now in the best position to teach them a little about scumbags, scam artists and how there is NEVER an easy way to make money and that not everyone is worthy of trust. That could be a good thing for your children.
I see it mentioned on this thread that a lot of the scumbags that worked for Storm are working for another financial planning mob.
Months ago, I was researching some names associated with Storm, and came up with the name of this same financial planning mob. So I paid ASIC a small sum of money to get the details.
Surprise, surprise - my own scumbag accountant from the NT sold this firm to the current crop of QLD scumbags and now there are ex Storm staff working there. Looks like they are all old mates. The accountant concerned screwed a lot of people in North QLD a few years back with another "investment scheme".
Beware and do your research on ANYONE who wants your money. (You can pay a small fee to ASIC to find out company directors' histories and then do other research from there - well worth the small sum of money and your time).
Only last week, I saw a letter in the Cairns Post from a woman who went to a financial seminar recently, much like Storm conducted. She noted that the presenters, Mr and Mrs Make You Rich were dripping in gold and that was such a big turnoff that they did not snare her as a customer.
She (correctly I assume) figured that the gold they were wearing was paid for by the punters.
I hope you dumped your accountant Mindstorm, he was most likely getting a kickback from Storm.
A few months back, I was looking for income protection insurance and so went to my bank. They told me they do not directly insure anymore and my bank referred me to a "broker" type insurance person.
However, when I got out the magnifying glass and looked at the banks fine print - the bank would get a 15% kickback for referring me to this broker. The broker kept hasssling me and hassling me to come in for an "appraisal".
He stuffed up when he tried to pass himself off as a direct employee of the bank but just happens to have a different business name and office location.
Like hell I was going in for an "appraisal" of my income protection needs with a liar and potential thief.
They are everywhere Mindstorm, I am sorry you have been done, I think you will come out the other side sadder but wiser. Good luck to you and your family and be on guard against other scammers who want to "reload" you. They will be actively seeking you out.
All the best.
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Sorry, it was not your accountants fault, it was not the banks fault.
It was storm's fault. Emmanuel Cassimatis made obscene amounts of money from commissions, and in the end it was these commissions which were driving the advice you recieved.
As many people said, there were many other firms which managed the crisis, Storm needed commissions to fuel the dividends that EC and JC were ripping out of the company, directly and through their associated companies.
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I'd be interested to know why no one seems interested in the fact that storm created unfinished software, and that the software was used by storm and two of the lenders.
I would have thought that the two lenders would have been liable for the defect in the software regardless of the software's creator.
Seems to me, that investors who lost money as a consequence of the defective software would have a clear case to recover.
Wouldn't this give rise to recovery from storm and the two lenders?
I would have thought that Storm (and its directors) should be a target if they're at fault - there might even be insurance.
(I'm not an investor in storm)
I would have thought that the two lenders would have been liable for the defect in the software regardless of the software's creator.
Seems to me, that investors who lost money as a consequence of the defective software would have a clear case to recover.
Wouldn't this give rise to recovery from storm and the two lenders?
I would have thought that Storm (and its directors) should be a target if they're at fault - there might even be insurance.
(I'm not an investor in storm)
Julia
In Memoriam
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Mindstorm: beating yourself up over making a wrong decision will change nothing and will simply make your family more unhappy as they watch your guilt and misery.
I'd say two things to you:
1. I don't know anyone who has not been taken for a ride by some sort of
con artist at some time in their lives. And it seems Manny and Julie were
a couple of the very best.
2. We all make the very best decisions we can with the information we
have at the time. You didn't know what you didn't know, to
paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld.
Maybe try to focus on what you still have, rather than what you have apparently lost. It seems there could be some compensation eventually, and in the meantime it seems you still have the love of your family, probably some good friends, and many people would consider these worth far more than any dollar amount.
Best of luck and good wishes to you.
Julia
I'd say two things to you:
1. I don't know anyone who has not been taken for a ride by some sort of
con artist at some time in their lives. And it seems Manny and Julie were
a couple of the very best.
2. We all make the very best decisions we can with the information we
have at the time. You didn't know what you didn't know, to
paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld.
Maybe try to focus on what you still have, rather than what you have apparently lost. It seems there could be some compensation eventually, and in the meantime it seems you still have the love of your family, probably some good friends, and many people would consider these worth far more than any dollar amount.
Best of luck and good wishes to you.
Julia
Strange thing about borrowing money from banks. Most people think they are borrowing from a bank itself. Reality is that, in general, they are borrowing other people's money. Yep, Mrs Jones, aged pensioner, who has $8k in a term deposit to cover her funeral costs, Joe Smith, warehouse supervisor, whose salary is deposited and used to fund his family's living expenses.
Usual suspects who, unwittingly, think they are just depositing money when they are actually lending the money to the bank (depositors are shown as a liability in the bank's accounts and where a banks statement is received it it normally produced from the bank's viewpoint - a credit is what they owe you and a debit is what you owe them! - hooray for double-entry bookkeeping.)
So when the funds of these "depositors" are at risk (margin loans, house mortgages, business loans, etc) you would hope that banks go in hard to recover the money they owe to other people. Probably, that is one of the factors which was behind the actions of the banks in regard to this Storm debacle.
But where the banks has stuffed up, to my mind, it is not the depositors who should wear the cost, and nor should they, but the shareholders. That is why they stump up the capital and wear the risks. At least, I hope they understand that.
So rectification of any cr&p lending decisions, through compensation, by the banks will flow through to those shareholders, be they Mrs Jones or Mr Smith (who may also be shareholders in order to supplement their income) and every superannuation fund in Australia, who will, quite rightly, wear the cost of any compensation to Storm former clients.
Those devastated through investing via Storm will more than likely not see it this way but that's understandable as well.
Usual suspects who, unwittingly, think they are just depositing money when they are actually lending the money to the bank (depositors are shown as a liability in the bank's accounts and where a banks statement is received it it normally produced from the bank's viewpoint - a credit is what they owe you and a debit is what you owe them! - hooray for double-entry bookkeeping.)
So when the funds of these "depositors" are at risk (margin loans, house mortgages, business loans, etc) you would hope that banks go in hard to recover the money they owe to other people. Probably, that is one of the factors which was behind the actions of the banks in regard to this Storm debacle.
But where the banks has stuffed up, to my mind, it is not the depositors who should wear the cost, and nor should they, but the shareholders. That is why they stump up the capital and wear the risks. At least, I hope they understand that.
So rectification of any cr&p lending decisions, through compensation, by the banks will flow through to those shareholders, be they Mrs Jones or Mr Smith (who may also be shareholders in order to supplement their income) and every superannuation fund in Australia, who will, quite rightly, wear the cost of any compensation to Storm former clients.
Those devastated through investing via Storm will more than likely not see it this way but that's understandable as well.
Garpal Gumnut
Ross Island Hotel
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I wouldn't necessarily agree with you Julia re being taken for a ride.
Manny was a superb salesman and had the get up and go to drag many people with less brains and financial know how with him.
He even fooled Ron Jelich and the SICAG committee into doing his bidding by not going for him rather than the banks. And poor old Ronnie lost more than most.
He still has some close investors ready with the readies to get compensation from the banks.
If the SICAG model works, so will the Manny model.
And Manny will be back with a new operation in eighteen months or two years time.
The man is a genius and I think you are being very hard on him.
gg
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"Not proud of Storm involvement: Norris"
"CBA chief executive Ralph Norris has acknowledged that the bank's involvement with Storm Financial was not something he was proud of - but hopes the processes put in place to help affected customers would ease some of their burden.
Norris told an audience at yesterday's Trans-Tasman Business Circle lunch in Sydney that he believed the bank had let some of its customers down."
More by Ruth Liew on Financial Standard here;
http://www.financialstandard.com.au/news/view/26946/
"CBA chief executive Ralph Norris has acknowledged that the bank's involvement with Storm Financial was not something he was proud of - but hopes the processes put in place to help affected customers would ease some of their burden.
Norris told an audience at yesterday's Trans-Tasman Business Circle lunch in Sydney that he believed the bank had let some of its customers down."
More by Ruth Liew on Financial Standard here;
http://www.financialstandard.com.au/news/view/26946/
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"Storm CBA claims should be resolved 'early next year' "
"Lawyers representing former clients of Storm Financial expect to have claims against the Commonwealth Bank (CBA) resolved by early next year."
More on the ABC here;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/01/2701814.htm
"Lawyers representing former clients of Storm Financial expect to have claims against the Commonwealth Bank (CBA) resolved by early next year."
More on the ABC here;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/01/2701814.htm
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True.
As a holder of all major banks, it annoys me that CBA did not make the calls when it should have. ( and I bet CBA is kicking itself atm that they did not wait it out 6 months and storm would still be going, its clients would be on the road to recovery and CBA's cash cow would one day start flowing again )
However, the banks will rightly so increase margins on homeloans etc to recoup the money they loaned ( you already see irrational lending practices to small business generated by the political pressure generated by idiotic Kevin Rudd, to generate abnormally low homeloan rates )
and hence why I believe they are entitled to the difference between the day when they were meant to recieve a margin call and when they actually did.
BUT
no doubt some stormers will want more than their fair share as, even now, I would bet that most STILL do not realise what their net asset was, and continue to confuse it with gross asset.
Julia
In Memoriam
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Alternatively, Mr Jelich understood very well the risks involved, but figured the potential profits were worth it. And he took clients along on the same ride.
I am not so charitable as you.
Re Manny being a 'superb salesman', yes, and that is the problem.
Storm investors were not looking for a smart sales job, they were looking for and expecting a realistic assessment of their circumstances and a genuine financial plan in accordance with their risk profile.
Agree.
I presume your whole post is pretty much tongue in cheek as most of your posts are.
I'm not sure, however, that the irony will be much appreciated by Stormers.
Given your level of enthusiasm for Manny, I might even suspect you are lining yourself up for a job with the revitalised Storm model. Need a reference?
Soft Dough, I disagree here. The market was pretty much in free fall and CBA couldn't risk holding further. They didn't have the 20/20 foresighted crystal ball to know that a recovery such as we have seen would have occurred.
Mindstorm
If you'd read all 3700 posts on this thread, as I've done, you'd know that only an odd post here and there makes mention of the people with massive portfolios.
Most of us are well aware that many Storm investors, probably the majority, were just ordinary people of average financial means who were trying to put themselves in a position to have a decent retirement.
We feel sorry for these people. However, we find it much harder to feel sorry for the small minority who were already very well off financially and had no need to go anywhere near Storm, but they went to Storm anyway because being wealthy wasn't enough for them - they wanted even more.
You admit yourself that there were greedy people who invested with Storm.
It's these people who have copped some criticism in a tiny percentage of the posts in this thread.
You need to stop beating yourself up. Sure, you made some mistakes - haven't we all at different times. Now you need to look forward rather than backwards.
Be determined to make the most of your future, whatever that may be. If it means living on government welfare, then so be it. A majority of retirees do it, and live reasonably comfortable and happy lives. Many of lifes true pleasures cost nothing.
As for accountants, well, you've learned the hard way not to place your trust in their advice on investment matters.
Taxation, not investment, is the forte of accountants.
As for accountants who hold an investment advisers licence.....when it's all said and done I think you'll find they're basically just commission salesmen.
An accountant once told me to buy Pasminco. The stock was in the best downtrend you'd ever see. He said he owned quite a bit of it himself. Pasminco shares continued to slide and the company ended up going broke.
That's how much he knew about stock market investment!
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Disagree with what?
I said that they should have made the margin calls.
I never said that they should have kept storm in business, simply that if they did, there would be no problem atm.
