So are they also going to warn those who borrow against their home to buy a boat, a car, have a holiday, household goods, etc, could also lose their home? What a Doh! society we are becoming.
Storm Financial Group
- Thread starter Garpal Gumnut
- Start date
So are they also going to warn those who borrow against their home to buy a boat, a car, have a holiday, household goods, etc, could also lose their home? What a Doh! society we are becoming.
One difference between Securitor and Storm is that Securitor charged around 3% fees compared to 7% by Storm. In all other respects they both appear to have employed similar unscrupulous, cash-grabbing tactics designed to feather their own nests, without any regard for the welfare of their clients.
I'm not a Storm victim, yet even I feel angry and disgusted at the greed and total disdain for other people that was exhibited by Storm and the unscrupulous advisers who worked for them.
These apologies for men and women should hang their heads in shame - it's questionable whether they're even fit to be called human beings.
That'd be right....warn them about the obvious that they should be able to see for themselves.
While we're at it, let's put notices on toilet doors telling them to make sure they use the toilet paper after they've finished.
Then let's spend millions of dollars by resurrecting those 'Slip Slop Slap' ads on TV to warn people they might get fried if they don't take precautions against sunburn.
And we'll warn them of the risks of drinking alcohol - no, hang on a minute, the government make billions by taxing alcohol sales - we'd better not interfere with that nice little cash cow. We'll continue allowing alcohol ads on TV, but of course we'll maintain the advertising ban on cigarette companies and we'll continue forcing them to put warnings on cigarette packets for the idiots who have too little intelligence to know the health risks of smoking tobacco.
While we're in the business of protecting people against themselves, let's pass a law compelling vehicle manufactures to put warning signs on car doors to let drivers know they could get hurt or killed if they speed or drink-drive.
And how about a law enforcing real estate agents to tell people they could lose their assets if they're used as collateral for real estate loans.
Where the hell is it going to stop - all this legislation to protect idiots against themselves??!! Adults of normal intelligence shouldn't need other adults to hold their hands and guide them through life every step of the way. Different story if they're intellectually disabled, or of frail mind because of age. But we already have organizations that look after these people and do everything possible to ensure that their best interests are being met.
Once kids grow up and leave home and make their own way in the world, they should be responsible for themselves and the decisions they make - even the poor decisions. It's not the responsibility of government or the general community to mollycoddle them with never-ending advice and legislation and hand-holding.
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Number 1 rule of law making: You can't legislate against stupidity.
It's useless even trying.
It's useless even trying.
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What you are conveniently forgeting is that this legislation is designed to stop companies like storm conning people out of their life savings. Many storm investors were not even told that they had a margin loan and were not warned of the risks. They were told 'you won't have to worry our team of experts will be looking after your money and they will buy low and sell high and we all have our money in the same place as yours and we want to make sure that we do well so you'll never have to worry'. They had a polished answer for every one of their clients concerns including 'can I ever lose my home ; eg 'No never we will make sure that never happens as we have buffers in place to make sure this never happens'. This is the sort of spiel that these professional conmen used. And don't forget Storm Financial was a legitimate financial planning firm, a member of the Financial Planning Association and approved by ASIC. When investors went looking for a financial planner they had all the qualifications and the investors for the most part were financially naive. Most of you on this forum are well aware of the risks but most of storms investors knew nothing of the share market and put their trust in a legitimate financial planner with a degree and doctorate in financial planning. Not all of storm's planners were uneducated but they were all schooled by one of the greatest conmen this country has ever produced. Many of storms victims were far from stupid but not everyone knows what to do to improve their financial situation or they are too busy and want to leave it to the experts. Storm Financial had all the bits of paper needed!!! Their biggest crime has been that they have trusted a legitimate financial planner to help them achieve financial independence and not to have to rely on the old age pension. If you are one of those people who know how to achieve your financial goals in life then you are very lucky but just remember not everyone has this ability and need the help of these experts. Most are now saying they would never trust another financial planner. What do ASIC and all the other experts tell us all 'Go to a legitimate financial planner and take their advice' and that's exactly what storm clients did.
Storm Financial and all of the banks involved with them have not followed legal lending practices. How can they lend retirees over a million dollars on the old age pension? This is exactly what happened and Storm Financial's experts assured them they would always be ok no matter what happened to the market.
Garpal Gumnut
Ross Island Hotel
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What you are conveniently forgeting is that this legislation is designed to stop companies like storm conning people out of their life savings. Many storm investors were not even told that they had a margin loan and were not warned of the risks. They were told 'you won't have to worry our team of experts will be looking after your money and they will buy low and sell high and we all have our money in the same place as yours and we want to make sure that we do well so you'll never have to worry'. They had a polished answer for every one of their clients concerns including 'can I ever lose my home ; eg 'No never we will make sure that never happens as we have buffers in place to make sure this never happens'. This is the sort of spiel that these professional conmen used. And don't forget Storm Financial was a legitimate financial planning firm, a member of the Financial Planning Association and approved by ASIC. When investors went looking for a financial planner they had all the qualifications and the investors for the most part were financially naive. Most of you on this forum are well aware of the risks but most of storms investors knew nothing of the share market and put their trust in a legitimate financial planner with a degree and doctorate in financial planning. Not all of storm's planners were uneducated but they were all schooled by one of the greatest conmen this country has ever produced. Many of storms victims were far from stupid but not everyone knows what to do to improve their financial situation or they are too busy and want to leave it to the experts. Storm Financial had all the bits of paper needed!!! Their biggest crime has been that they have trusted a legitimate financial planner to help them achieve financial independence and not to have to rely on the old age pension. If you are one of those people who know how to achieve your financial goals in life then you are very lucky but just remember not everyone has this ability and need the help of these experts. Most are now saying they would never trust another financial planner. What do ASIC and all the other experts tell us all 'Go to a legitimate financial planner and take their advice' and that's exactly what storm clients did.
Storm Financial and all of the banks involved with them have not followed legal lending practices. How can they lend retirees over a million dollars on the old age pension? This is exactly what happened and Storm Financial's experts assured them they would always be ok no matter what happened to the market.
This is the most eloquently put , elaboration of the mindset of Storm investors and makes me for one, more cognisant of how they came to be in the position they are now in.
It behoves The Senate Inquiry to read all of the ASF posts , to understand the motives behind the Storm victims.
Moneyspidercentral may not communicate that to the Inquiry as some of the higherups in SICAG are still Storm believers.
gg
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Whether you like it or not we are all different, it's what makes this old world of ours such an interesting place. Aren't you the lucky one who obviously doesn't need a financial planner. Well not all of us are that lucky our talents obviously lie elsewhere.
Legislation on margin loans is long overdue in this country. The collapse of Storm involves white collar crime and fraudulent activity and one would hope that this parliamentary inquiry will flush out those responsible.
The blame game is well and truly on and the banks involved with storm are blaming storm's advice. What the banks and others with your mindset all need to realise is that storm could not borrow anything they could only recommend a level of borrowing. It was up to the banks to make sure that the borrowers could afford to service those loans and they have failed in their duty of care to do just that. Recommending and allowing borrowing of margin loans of any size by retirees, those close to retirement and those who simply couldnt' afford it is not on and if it takes legislation to ever prevent this scenario from ever occurring again so be it.
The margin loan issue is the one which has got so many victims into the level of financial ruin that they now find themselves in.
Why were LVR's allowed to blow out as far as they did?
Who was responsible for advising the clients they were in margin call?
In the past the banks have done it, why didn't they do it this time?
Storms advice wasn't real wonderful but had the banks given all clients the chance to correct their LVR's or given them a margin call when they reached the recommended level, none of this destruction of the clients portfolios would have occurred.
Had the major bank in this debacle not given storm 24 hours to repay their debts, storm may still be in existence and none of this would ever have occurred. Now that the all ords is up over 4400 all of storm's clients would be back in there, their valuation would have been down like everyone else in the market, but they would not have been out of the game completely, with no hope for a financial future of any kind.
You are very lucky that you have the knowledge to prevent this occurring to you but those who don't are now on anti depressants and sleeping tablets to cope with the fact that they have no home, no money and a huge debt. They have no future and it was all done supposedly by a legal financial planning organisation and their co-conspirators.
There are many of us out there who need the advise of a good financial planner and the financial industry needs a total revamp. At the present time if you go to a financial planner you, the client, are given a Statement of Advice so that you are supposedly aware of any risks. I would like to see the financial advisors of the future sign the Statement of Advice so that they then become responsible for any problems arising from their advice. It is about time that they became more professional and took responsibility for all advice given. That's what clients pay for.
Garpal Gumnut
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Mate you have been burnt, but you still have that sneaking suspicion that it was activities outside your control that got you in to this.
I quote you.
No mate, Storms advice wasn't really wonderful.
It was absolute crap.
Repeat it every 10 minutes until you don't ever publish the same externalising sentence ever again.
It was crap.
And you swallowed it.
gg
hey ive been into the newsagent between shifts to read some of the story in the fin review-very interesting stuff-so mr norris may not be the shining light that everybody thinks what i found funny is that mr c will be under the spotlight at the inquiry on friday and then next person in will be mr norris-that's if he turns up-theres now many more questions than answers about this whole thing- sure mr gg i agreee that storms advice may have been not that good but why did the banks loan the money-im going to see if i can make it to some of the hearings- i bet mr c will give a very polished response-and mr norris will also give a very polished response- that reminds me, whats that old saying--You cant polish a turd- Id better stop now before i upset joe-i want to go and read more posts before my money runs out--oh wait a minitue it already has-
GG,
Do you take your car to a mechanic? ( I am a mechanic by the way) well if not you I am sure some do....
If you had your car serviced, and as a result they did a shoddy repair on the stearing, resulting in you hitting a power pole at 100k's an hour and crippling you... for say 10 years..
An investigation found that the professional service the mechanic offered was, afterall not so professional and was the direct cause... However because it was within your control to gain a second opinion you wont get any compensation... Would you Swallow it???
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As I said 'Aren't you lucky you knew that.' It appears that's all you know.
Storm's investment strategy has been a standard but risky form of investment for as long as people have been investing in the stock market. It may not have been real wonderful, but it wasn't crap. What is crap is the blinkers that you have on regarding the whole issue here.
There are many who do still believe in this form of investment and fortunately for them they can afford it. It is the ones who cannot afford it, don't understand it and get conned with the help of the major banks who need help here and your attitude doesn't help those who have been severely burnt. We are one of the lucky ones we have been burnt but have more than enough to still survive.
There are a lot of investors out there who are very clever at what they are clever at and they don't have the time or the inclination to take care of their financial situation. They need help from good, genuine financial planners. The banks don't need to be involved at all. Their involvement was pure greed.
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Thank you Monario you are spot on there. My husband is an electrician and if he does any electrical work he is responsible for it and can go for murder if he is unprofessional. A lot of these so called financial planners are not professionals and yet they are members of the Financial Planners Association and approved by ASIC. How are any of us supposed to know who to go to and who to stay away from.
When you pay for financial advice you expect them to be professionals and to look after your finances.
The directors of Storm Financial and the CBA bank had a close relationship and the bank encouraged storms level of borrowing using their VAS system. They revalued property so they could lend even more money than storm recommended.
The bank are blaming a couple of rogue employees, what a load of hogwash, everyone of their superiors right to the top would have been aware of exactly what was happening. And what about the auditors don't tell me they didn't know what was happening. You can guarantee everyone of them knew exactly what was happening and that it was highly unethical if not highly illegal. So why did they do it and why did they allow it to continue?
It meant big bucks for the banks that's exactly why they did it, why they encouraged it, why they allowed it to continue and why they have tried desperately to cover it up. The CBA made four billion dollars profit last year, it's all about money and profit. People are no longer important to these banks their attitude has become quite despicable.
Read the submissions to the parliamentary inquiry they all tell the same story. Why, they can't all be wrong. There is far more to this collapse than meets the eye and we can all only hope and pray that the parliamentary inquiry gets to the bottom of this collapse and some of those unfortunate victims receive some form of compensation for being duped by a corrupt system.
Garpal Gumnut
Ross Island Hotel
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So what you are saying is that it was not Storm's fault.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you a moneyspider from SICAG ?
I will not say anything more except.
In eight years tme you will be on here complaining about the next FP who takes your dough.
Folk here post to advise each other and to learn.
And you are not victims. You are investors in a dodgy product that failed to live up to your expectations.
gg
Garpal Gumnut,
No matter how hard you try, you will never get through that, putting any CBA involvement aside, it was not margin loans (darn safe if managed properly, ie dont get the LVR above 20% if you wish to sleep soundly at night unless you are really hairy chested) and/or borrowing against the house which was the problem per se. It was the sheer amount of debt incurred which remained constant while the market went south.
Debt carries risk at some level. People with storm were seemingly fed a line of bull that any level of debt was safe. I don't know why they believed such rubbish but they did.
Why they did not add up their monthly statement of position and ponder how is this debt to be paid off can only be answered by the individuals concerned.
Debt, debt, debt. It will trash you if not managed correctly.
And the CBA and other financial institutions had some involvement. It is now a matter of determining the degree of that involvement and the level of responsibility which should be apportioned between the banks, the advisers and the clients themselves.
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From an uneducated git who barely passed Year 11 but was fortunate, having been raised in the then slum of Footscray, to be able to observe and mingle with some of the best rip off merchants that suburb produced.
No matter how hard you try, you will never get through that, putting any CBA involvement aside, it was not margin loans (darn safe if managed properly, ie dont get the LVR above 20% if you wish to sleep soundly at night unless you are really hairy chested) and/or borrowing against the house which was the problem per se. It was the sheer amount of debt incurred which remained constant while the market went south.
Debt carries risk at some level. People with storm were seemingly fed a line of bull that any level of debt was safe. I don't know why they believed such rubbish but they did.
Why they did not add up their monthly statement of position and ponder how is this debt to be paid off can only be answered by the individuals concerned.
Debt, debt, debt. It will trash you if not managed correctly.
And the CBA and other financial institutions had some involvement. It is now a matter of determining the degree of that involvement and the level of responsibility which should be apportioned between the banks, the advisers and the clients themselves.
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From an uneducated git who barely passed Year 11 but was fortunate, having been raised in the then slum of Footscray, to be able to observe and mingle with some of the best rip off merchants that suburb produced.
I am not really 100% with you there, i don't think it is the banks responsibility to make sure and certain that you are able to service the loan , thats why the bank takes security, if you can't repay the loan they get their money back.
It's the banks job to lend you the money, hell, thats what they do, thats how they make their money. I don't think they should be giving too much financial advice, thats what the FPs are for and to a lesser extent do some research.
A simple rule perhaps for next time, " if you don't think you can afford the repayments on the loan , you cant" "if you think your spouse is having an affair , they are" if you think your kids are on drugs, yes ,there selling "crack" on the corner.
Not trying to be confrontational, just realistic.
Darkside
Whilst I agree it is the borrower's responsibility to ensure they know what they are getting themselves into and that they can afford it, from a legal point of view, there have been some cases where borrowers have won their case due to predatory lending, where the bank would know the borrowers could not pay.
Not a legal case, but I recall one of the majors, CBA I think, waived car loans that had been made to NT aborigines who were on welfare. No way they could pay.
I think there needs to be some responsibility on banks to lend responsibly. Not everyone is as financially savvy as you and me
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I don't know if you have been able to get a copy of this today but it is quite an interesting read.
In the article, it states that a former senior CBA employee whose evidence against the bank will be used in the forthcoming legal action has provided internal bank emails to lawyers which allegedly demonstrates that decisions were made by managers who reported directly to the CEO.
Also in the article Mark Weir from SICAG, talking about the relationship between CBA & Storm, states;
"They were not so much joined at the hip as Siamese twins."
Duncan Hughes also reports about the Masters Degree in Applied Finance from University of Western Sydney. UWS denies that EC & JC had anything to do with the design of the course. Carey Ramm says the degree was considered a joke as eligilibility did not require previous tertiaty qualifications.
Get yourself a copy of the paper and make your own opinions.
Darkside
Whilst I agree it is the borrower's responsibility to ensure they know what they are getting themselves into and that they can afford it, from a legal point of view, there have been some cases where borrowers have won their case due to predatory lending, where the bank would know the borrowers could not pay.
Not a legal case, but I recall one of the majors, CBA I think, waived car loans that had been made to NT aborigines who were on welfare. No way they could pay.
I think there needs to be some responsibility on banks to lend responsibly. Not everyone is as financially savvy as you and me
Gooner,
I agree to an extent and sure the banks must at least make an effort, but as far as financially savvy goes, people are going to have to do some research, christ they say your home is your biggest investment, but people borrowed way more than just the value of their homes, thats why they are losing them.
As a few have pointed out " we cant legislate against stupidity" but that seems to be what we are trying to achieve. Lets not legislate to the extent that we penalise the researched and educated investor for the mistakes of others.
As i stated , i don't disagree that the banks share some responsibility, but surely the investor must take some blame. Fvc# i just spilt my hot coffee, who can i sue for that , nescafe get your legal firm ready.
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I disagree that the investor should take some blame. I am not an astute investor that's why I went to a financial planner. That's why I needed to take the advice from an expert in the financial field. If I was able to educate myself I wouldn't need to go to a financial planner. There does need to be some legislation in place to protect those seeking financial advice because they don't know how to do it themselves. If I was as clever with finances as many of you profess to be I wouldn't bother going to a financial planner either and I would also have known better than to do what Storm suggested. Unfortunately I didn't know.
Are financial planners professionals who can be trusted or not? Make up your minds. If they can be trusted then none of us made a mistake in going to Storm. If they can't be trusted then we made a huge mistake in going to Storm. In which case why were they licensed to give financial advice. Why were they members of the Financial Planning Association.
Why didn't Storm Financial explain to their clients what a margin loan was. Why didn't many of us find out until it was too late. I admit I'm a first time investor and I had no idea that I had to educate myself before taking financial advice from an expert.
Does that mean that if I am advised to have brain surgery from a brain surgeon that I'll have to educate myself about brain surgery first before I have the operation or do I trust him because he's a professional.
We need genuine professional financial planners who can be trusted and it looks like the only way we are going to achieve that is to legislate. This does not mean for one moment that if you want to borrow against your home to take out a personal loan to buy a car or similar that the legislation needs to cover those types of personal loans, it simply means that FP's/Banks cannot advise/lend huge margin loans for financial planners to play the stock market on their clients behalf.
Some of you are just going to accept that we all have to start somewhere with this understanding of how the financial world operates. Give yourselves a pat on the back if you've made it. I'm still in financial preschool and it's been a painful journey so far. I've been to hell and looking for that arrow that says 'this way back.'
All i am saying , is DYOR and think about the consequences, honestly, if you thought the repayments on your loan were to high, question it.
And i don't profess to be clever when it comes to all things financial, what i do hold as utmost importance is research and responsibility.
If the electrician came to my house and told me i needed it rewired with 6mil twin and earth for ten grand, i would think thats a touch excessive, maybe i should find out if thats right and do a little research, i may go to a few forum sites, read a little about it before i hand over the spondoolies.
Because what i know about electrical work i can write on an aspirin with an axe, but i am sure i would have a good handle on it before i ended up parting with my hard earned.
And to use your "brain surgeon " as an example, well yes i would do a few google searchers about the surgeon and the type of surgery, lets face it , what if it was Dr Patel who was doing the surgery , a simple google search years before described him as an attrocious surgeon who was a dismal Quack at best. So yes i would have to say i would do some research, not just say, go ahead cut my head open and lets go.
Nescaffe still havent replied to my Email, but thats ok , Breville made the kettle that boiled the water, so they are also in my lawsuit, and the council who run the pipes, and that plumber who piped it to the house.
