"Alternative" Therapies

[Julia]

One in six Australians visit a complementary therapist as their primary health carer but experts fear many do so without being aware of the possible risks.

University of Queensland researcher Jon Wardle is calling for the registration of complementary medicine therapists to make it safer for people to consult a naturopath.

Mr Wardle, a naturopath and research scholar with UQ's School of Population Health, says registration is long overdue.

"One in six people use complementary therapists as their primary healthcare practitioner and yet currently anyone can hang up a shingle and begin practising without any qualifications at all", he said. "This is a major public health issue".

- "The Sunday Mail" 14 June 2009


I support Mr Wardle's concerns and likewise feel testing should be carried out on the extraordinary range of 'natural' products on the shelves of pharmacies and health food shops.

Whilst medically prescribed drugs have to undergo extensive clinical trials and then approval by the FDA in America and the TGA in Australia, manufacturers of various plant et al products can be sold without any testing or approval process whatsoever.

Moreover, often we hear someone on a radio talkback programme saying to a naturopath "can you suggest something for my high blood pressure. I don't like taking drugs". Then the naturopath makes some suggestion but rarely adds the advice that before stopping any prescribed medicine, the patient should consult their doctor.

I've heard some really dangerous advice offered by people who are let loose on the trusting general public but who - as pointed out in the item above - have at best dubious experience and qualifications.

Do you visit naturopaths and/or homeopaths? Is this your first choice over a conventional GP? Why?

Or do you avoid these people and trust the medical profession?

 

[Soft Dough]

I think that naturopaths should not be able to prescribe anything that has not been proven to work.

RCT at minimum, published in a reputable journal.

There are a few very good natural products,

but a vast majority are no doubt as effective as placebo. There is also risk involved for no potential benefit.

And don't get me started on homeopathy.... aaarrrrgh.

just FYI regarding homeopathy :

Physicist Robert L. Park, former executive director of the American Physical Society, has noted that
“ since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth."

 

[Sunder]

Do you visit naturopaths and/or homeopaths? Is this your first choice over a conventional GP? Why?

Or do you avoid these people and trust the medical profession?

Never have, and never will. There are just way too many scams and quacks out there, to pick out the tiny elements of truth. I'm not saying naturopathy doesn't work. Most drugs are derived from plants. But when someone tells you that a little electric current and soaking your feet in salt water can remove parasites from your body, they go in the discredited bin.

... Yeah, I'd like to see the hole left in your foot as tape worm tries to bore through your legs to get out you foot.

That said, right now, my right hand is in a basin of salt water, because I've found soaking it in there for 20-30 mins a night is almost as effective as class III steroid cream, and you can only use such strong steroid cream for 4-6 weeks at a time. (Neither cures ezcema, but both seem to reduce inflamation and scaling)

 

[Naked shorts]

It is in a GP's best interests to make his patients better. He doesn't get money from selling products. The whole "natural" industry is a scam which is targeted at uneducated people who don't know any better.

http://whatstheharm.net/
^ this is a good site that goes into some of the details of what these "alternatives" can do to you.

 

[Aussiest]

Do you visit naturopaths and/or homeopaths? Is this your first choice over a conventional GP? Why?

Or do you avoid these people and trust the medical profession?

I've never really "got" homeopathy, but anyway...

It would depend on the ailment. I think naturepaths are good for general wellbeing issues, such as health/energy levels, stress etc. or, even weight issues. But, if it came to cancer or likewise, i wouldn't be consulting a naturepath. I would put my trust in conventional medicine as it has been proven with some certainty time and time again what is likely to work.

Alternative therapies, traditional medicine - there are going to be good and bad practioners in each. I've heard that Doctors get kickbacks from some of the medications they prescribe. Although that is heresay, it makes you wonder.

 

[bowman]

There's an awful lot of quackery and junk science out there, that's for sure.

However western medicine tends to focus on finding cures for illnesses - many of which are a direct result of the 'modern' lifestyle.

Prevention is often the domain of the alternative crowd and that's where you're most likely to find the better ideas on health and nutrition, but again you need to wade through the commercially driven junk to get to the good stuff, and that can be a time consuming task.

 

[gav]

It is in a GP's best interests to make his patients better. He doesn't get money from selling products. The whole "natural" industry is a scam which is targeted at uneducated people who don't know any better.

http://whatstheharm.net/
^ this is a good site that goes into some of the details of what these "alternatives" can do to you.

Actually, GP's DO get kickbacks for prescribing drugs, whether it be in the form of money, holidays, etc. I have a friend who is a sales rep for a drug company which I will not name. Her job is to go around to Pharmacist's, GP's and doctor's and convince them to sell her companies drugs. They receive many incentives, and even get extra incentives for meeting a certain quota.

My g/f is a qualified naturopath (Bach of Sci, Naturopathy) and is registered, however she no longer works in the industry. The amount of clients she used to have that would come in complaining about side affects from drugs prescribed from GP's were unbelievable - GP's prescribe far too easily. The most common was for blood pressure related medication. NOT ONE GP recommended for the patient to commence aerobic activity, which is one of the most favorable resolutions for lowering high blood pressure. My g/f seen more than 20 ppl for blood pressure related problems last year, only one needed to go back on medication prescribed by their GP. Aerobic activity, and supplementing with magnesium and hawthorn berry was all she advised (as well as having their blood pressure checked regularly). No longer are those people dependent on drugs.

However one thing that worries me is that in some areas of the USA, naturopaths are allowed prescribe hormone replacement therapies. This is concerning because the majority of naturopaths do not have enough training in the area. But then again, it is no different to GP's prescribing hormone and thyroid medication, when they do not have the proper training to do so either. When getting a blood test for thyroid and/or testosterone, a GP will simply request an overall thyroid count and total testosterone count. NEITHER OF THESE give the full picture and can lead to a wrong diagnosis.

Unfortunately a relative of mine was diagnosed with over active thyroid. Even though multiple blood tests from different GP's came back fine, it wasn't until he seen a specialist that the problem was discovered. By then he had lost 15KG in less than a month, and was skinny to begin with. The specialist recommended INJECTING RADIATION to kill off part of the thyroid But they killed off too much. Now he has an under active thyroid and has put on over 45KG. Unfortunately, this cannot be reversed.

I do not understand why people will use drugs or even have operations, when there are less invasive options. If those options don't work (and they don't work in every situation), then go and take the drug or have the operation.

I find it strange that people are complaining about the need for naturopaths to be registered, when Australia allows people like Doctor Death in QLD to practice. And another doctor in QLD (cant recall his name) has been found guilty of many sexual assault charges, has served his time and is now allowed to practice again! If you are seeing a naturopath and concerned about their qualifications, simply ask them to provide proof they are registered with the The Australian Naturopathic Practitioners Association, or the Australian Traditional Medicine Society. If they can't, then there is a possibility they are not appropriately qualified, and you should go elsewhere.

My post is not intended to be against doctors or GP's, as there are good and bad, just as there are good and bad naturopaths.

 

[Naked shorts]

Gav,

I haven't had many prescriptions, but the ones I have had have been for a particular drug, not a particular brand of drug. When at the chemist I get to choose if I would like a "cheaper alternative" because I choose the brand, not the doctor.

I will however take your comments on board as I have no doubt there are some dodgy GP's out there.

 

[Sunder]

I do not understand why people will use drugs or even have operations, when there are less invasive options. If those options don't work (and they don't work in every situation), then go and take the drug or have the operation.

Most of the time because they DON'T work. People want to get rid of their ailment, not be human trials.

I find it strange that people are complaining about the need for naturopaths to be registered, when Australia allows people like Doctor Death in QLD to practice. And another doctor in QLD (cant recall his name) has been found guilty of many sexual assault charges, has served his time and is now allowed to practice again! If you are seeing a naturopath and concerned about their qualifications, simply ask them to provide proof they are registered with the The Australian Naturopathic Practitioners Association, or the Australian Traditional Medicine Society. If they can't, then there is a possibility they are not appropriately qualified, and you should go elsewhere.

My post is not intended to be against doctors or GP's, as there are good and bad, just as there are good and bad naturopaths.

The problem is there are good and bad GPs, but the medicine is regulated and has solid research, meaning the medicine is mostly good. There are good and bad naturopaths, but the advice is untested and unregulated, meaning the advice is mostly bad.

Imagine: If a heavily regulated and scrutinised industry can get the odd bad egg - how many bad eggs are there in a unregulated unscrutinised industry?

 

[gav]

Gav,

I haven't had many prescriptions, but the ones I have had have been for a particular drug, not a particular brand of drug. When at the chemist I get to choose if I would like a "cheaper alternative" because I choose the brand, not the doctor.

I will however take your comments on board as I have no doubt there are some dodgy GP's out there.

Unfortunately there are dodgy professionals in all industries. I haven't needed to see a doctor in quite some time, but if required I'd choose the cheaper brand also.

 

[gav]

Most of the time because they DON'T work. People want to get rid of their ailment, not be human trials.

The problem is there are good and bad GPs, but the medicine is regulated and has solid research, meaning the medicine is mostly good. There are good and bad naturopaths, but the advice is untested and unregulated, meaning the advice is mostly bad.

Imagine: If a heavily regulated and scrutinised industry can get the odd bad egg - how many bad eggs are there in a unregulated unscrutinised industry?

If a naturopath is registered with the associations I listed, they have adequate formal formal qualifications, and HAVE INSURANCE. If they didn't work most of the time, didn't help people with their ailments, used humans as trials, didn't have solid research (as you put it), then how the hell could they get insurance??

There are many areas of alternative medicines that I do not understand, mainly because I have not had the training. But that does not mean I would dismiss them. Homeopathy is one area, and I've debated this many times with my partner. My argument was that any benefit from homeopathy was from a placebo affect. But that argument is thrown out the window when I have seen homeopathy (and many other alternative medicines) work on pets. How does this work when a pet clearly doesn't know they are taking something to treat an ailment?

I totally agree that the industry should be regulated, and registration with the appropriate associations and insurance be made compulsory. The only ones who will suffer are those who do not have the appropriate qualifications.

 

[Julia]

Imagine: If a heavily regulated and scrutinised industry can get the odd bad egg - how many bad eggs are there in a unregulated unscrutinised industry?

This is really relevant and one of the things that concerns me.

Actually, GP's DO get kickbacks for prescribing drugs, whether it be in the form of money, holidays, etc. I have a friend who is a sales rep for a drug company which I will not name. Her job is to go around to Pharmacist's, GP's and doctor's and convince them to sell her companies drugs. They receive many incentives, and even get extra incentives for meeting a certain quota.

Could you clarify here whether you are suggesting the drug rep gets the incentives for meeting a quota, or the doctor for prescribing a quota?
And if it's the rep, then clarify what you mean by 'meeting a quota':
i.e. do you mean the number of doctors she sees or the volume of drug which goes out of the company's warehouse in her area?

My g/f is a qualified naturopath (Bach of Sci, Naturopathy) and is registered, however she no longer works in the industry. The amount of clients she used to have that would come in complaining about side affects from drugs prescribed from GP's were unbelievable - GP's prescribe far too easily.

I agree that most GP's prescribe too readily. It's pressure of time which is a pity.

Re your g/f seeing so many unhappy clients, you have to bear in mind that she's only seeing those who have had unsatisfactory results from conventional medicine, or - more likely imo - those who for their own reasons are predisposed against conventional medicine, i.e. those who automatically distrust something which is "a drug" compared to what they think is pure and beautiful because it contains various plant materials.

Good that your g/f has a Bach Science. Where does the naturopathic qualification come from? Presumably either The Australian Naturopathic Practitioners Association, or the Australian Traditional Medicine Society?

Who sets the standards of education for either/both these organisations?

I could set up, say, "The Australian Association of Nutritional Wellness", devise a bit of education in nutrition, invite students to undertake my course (at a fee of course), and when they have passed it, confer on them the qualification "Member of the Australian Assn of Nutritional Wellness, Hons."
Wouldn't necessarily mean squat, but will appeal hugely to those who are into 'natural therapies'.

Now, Gav, I'm sure your g/f is well educated and I'm not having a go at you or her in any personal sense.

I just don't see - unless the industry is regulated by the TGA as is the medical industry - that the public can reasonably have confidence in either the practitioners or their products.

The most common was for blood pressure related medication. NOT ONE GP recommended for the patient to commence aerobic activity,

How big is the sample here? Not one out of how many?

which is one of the most favorable resolutions for lowering high blood pressure.

Agree, along with weight reduction.

My g/f seen more than 20 ppl for blood pressure related problems last year, only one needed to go back on medication prescribed by their GP. Aerobic activity, and supplementing with magnesium and hawthorn berry was all she advised (as well as having their blood pressure checked regularly). No longer are those people dependent on drugs.

20 people over a whole year is not exactly a large number! A GP would be likely to see possibly 20 people in a day with BP related problems, certainly more than 20 in a week.
What's the role of magnesium and hawthorn berry in reducing BP?

However one thing that worries me is that in some areas of the USA, naturopaths are allowed prescribe hormone replacement therapies. This is concerning because the majority of naturopaths do not have enough training in the area. But then again, it is no different to GP's prescribing hormone and thyroid medication, when they do not have the proper training to do so either. When getting a blood test for thyroid and/or testosterone, a GP will simply request an overall thyroid count and total testosterone count. NEITHER OF THESE give the full picture and can lead to a wrong diagnosis.

Unfortunately a relative of mine was diagnosed with over active thyroid. Even though multiple blood tests from different GP's came back fine, it wasn't until he seen a specialist that the problem was discovered. By then he had lost 15KG in less than a month, and was skinny to begin with. The specialist recommended INJECTING RADIATION to kill off part of the thyroid But they killed off too much. Now he has an under active thyroid and has put on over 45KG. Unfortunately, this cannot be reversed.

You describe one case. GP's successfully diagnose and treat thyroid problems all the time. I have an underactive thyroid which is easily managed with medication. So do many people.

I do not understand why people will use drugs or even have operations, when there are less invasive options. If those options don't work (and they don't work in every situation), then go and take the drug or have the operation.

You're quite naturally expressing your own view, Gav, and I respect that.
But most people prefer to take the advice of a registered medical doctor in an industry that is properly regulated and to use medication that has been through rigorous clinical trials before being approved for release.

I find it strange that people are complaining about the need for naturopaths to be registered, when Australia allows people like Doctor Death in QLD to practice. And another doctor in QLD (cant recall his name) has been found guilty of many sexual assault charges, has served his time and is now allowed to practice again!

Now that is just a silly comparison. You have two dysfunctional individuals who have been dealt with by the system. Pity, of course, they were not sorted out before they did so much damage. Queensland Health are too busy covering up all their stuff ups to actually respond to patient complaints.

The pathological behaviour of two doctors has no relationship to the whole body of natural therapists being required to be regulated and held accountable.

If you are seeing a naturopath and concerned about their qualifications, simply ask them to provide proof they are registered with the The Australian Naturopathic Practitioners Association, or the Australian Traditional Medicine Society. If they can't, then there is a possibility they are not appropriately qualified, and you should go elsewhere.

As above, neither of these registrations would reassure me.

 

[Sunder]

If a naturopath is registered with the associations I listed, they have adequate formal formal qualifications, and HAVE INSURANCE. If they didn't work most of the time, didn't help people with their ailments, used humans as trials, didn't have solid research (as you put it), then how the hell could they get insurance??

I managed to get professional indemnity insurance for $300 a year. They didn't ask me whether I had a degree, industry certifications, or whether I had been fired for incompetence in the past. Just "What industry do you work in" and "How would you like to pay for this"?

Also another thing to think about:

If you were just feeling mildly unwell, and you believed in alternative medicine, you'd probably give it a go right?

But if you were feeling majorly sick, and all you could think of was getting something to ease the pain, would you go to a naturopath?

So, your G/F's clients could have had minor, temporary ailments such as stress or too much coffee raising blood pressure, and the placebo effect in conjuction with time, could mean they never needed anything more than some reassurance and a more active lifestyle.

However, someone who is suffering fainting and is at risk of imminent heart attack... Do you see them going to naturopaths? I do - they get in the news a couple time a year - usually in the coroner's report.

 

[gav]

Julia, my responses are in bold

Could you clarify here whether you are suggesting the drug rep gets the incentives for meeting a quota, or the doctor for prescribing a quota?
And if it's the rep, then clarify what you mean by 'meeting a quota':
i.e. do you mean the number of doctors she sees or the volume of drug which goes out of the company's warehouse in her area?

Obviously my friend the sales rep receives incentives when she convinces businesses to buy her companies drugs - thats how working in sales is. But the pharmacists, GP's and other doctors also get the kickbacks and incentives for recommending/prescribing certain drugs from that company, and get even more if the meet a certain quota. I am not surprised this happens, but I am surprised as to how much trust people put in GP's. I drive almost 3 hours to see a GP I trust.


I agree that most GP's prescribe too readily. It's pressure of time which is a pity.

Re your g/f seeing so many unhappy clients, you have to bear in mind that she's only seeing those who have had unsatisfactory results from conventional medicine, or - more likely imo - those who for their own reasons are predisposed against conventional medicine, i.e. those who automatically distrust something which is "a drug" compared to what they think is pure and beautiful because it contains various plant materials.

The example I gave are just a small sample of the clients my g/f used to see. If they automatically distrusted the drugs, they would not have taken them in the first place. They went to see a naturopath for alternative methods to the drugs because were causing side effects.

Good that your g/f has a Bach Science. Where does the naturopathic qualification come from? Presumably either The Australian Naturopathic Practitioners Association, or the Australian Traditional Medicine Society?

Who sets the standards of education for either/both these organisations?

I could set up, say, "The Australian Association of Nutritional Wellness", devise a bit of education in nutrition, invite students to undertake my course (at a fee of course), and when they have passed it, confer on them the qualification "Member of the Australian Assn of Nutritional Wellness, Hons."
Wouldn't necessarily mean squat, but will appeal hugely to those who are into 'natural therapies'.

My g/f did her Bach of Science at a University, not some sham organisation connected to the registration, but I understand the point you are making.

Now, Gav, I'm sure your g/f is well educated and I'm not having a go at you or her in any personal sense.

I just don't see - unless the industry is regulated by the TGA as is the medical industry - that the public can reasonably have confidence in either the practitioners or their products.

It is ILLEGAL to claim therapeutic qualities unless it is TGA approved. As I said earlier - I agree it should be regulated more, as does my g/f.

 

[gav]

Sunder, my points in bold.

I managed to get professional indemnity insurance for $300 a year. They didn't ask me whether I had a degree, industry certifications, or whether I had been fired for incompetence in the past. Just "What industry do you work in" and "How would you like to pay for this"?

As a naturopath you cannot get insurance unless you have the appropriate qualification.

Also another thing to think about:

If you were just feeling mildly unwell, and you believed in alternative medicine, you'd probably give it a go right?

But if you were feeling majorly sick, and all you could think of was getting something to ease the pain, would you go to a naturopath?

So, your G/F's clients could have had minor, temporary ailments such as stress or too much coffee raising blood pressure, and the placebo effect in conjuction with time, could mean they never needed anything more than some reassurance and a more active lifestyle.

If those clients did have minor temporary ailment from stress or too much coffee, then the GP's should NOT have prescribed them medication in the first place. Unfortunately too many GP's are prescribing drugs instead of recommending life style changes.

However, someone who is suffering fainting and is at risk of imminent heart attack... Do you see them going to naturopaths? I do - they get in the news a couple time a year - usually in the coroner's report.

That is why regulation is required, to stop this from happening. Obviously someone in that situation should see a doctor immediately, I have not said otherwise in any of my posts. As I've already said, I AM ALL FOR REGULATION, as are appropriately qualified naturopaths. I don't see why so many people have a problem with qualified naturopaths who recommend scientifically proven remedies. Even private health insurance companies are giving rebates for members seeing naturopaths. If you prefer to see your GP for all ailments, that's your choice.

 

[gav]

Julia, please disregard my second point in bold. It should read:

"My g/f did her Bach of Science at the Southern School of Natural Medicine, not an organisation connected to the registration, but I understand the point you are making. Once an organisation offers a Degree, it is subject to government regulation and strict requirements that must be adhered to."

As I said in my first post, I have nothing against drugs or GP's. However I believe the majority are misinformed when it comes to alternative therapies. There are good and bad in every industry, and this industry needs to be regulated too, as unfortunately the reputation of the good ones is being tarnished by the bad ones.

The pharmaceutical industry also requires tougher regulation.

 

[gfresh]

This was in the news recently. Raises some further issues to that discussed above.

A couple whose baby daughter died after they treated her with homeopathic remedies instead of conventional medicine have been found guilty of manslaughter.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/pare...ver-daughters-eczema-death-20090605-bxvx.html

 

[Julia]

Julia, my responses are in bold

Julia, please disregard my second point in bold. It should read:

"My g/f did her Bach of Science at the Southern School of Natural Medicine, not an organisation connected to the registration, but I understand the point you are making. Once an organisation offers a Degree, it is subject to government regulation and strict requirements that must be adhered to."

Well, thank you for clarifying that. With all due respect to your g/f, I would not at all be impressed or reassured by a qualification from the "Southern School of Natural Medicine".

I elaborated on this point in my example of how easy it would be so set up an "Institute of Nutritional Wellness" or whatever you would like to call it.

Government regulation? In what form? How does this work and how does it provide protection for the consumer?

 

[Julia]

Obviously my friend the sales rep receives incentives when she convinces businesses to buy her companies drugs - thats how working in sales is.

So she sells to pharmacies and wholesalers? I'm sure you're not suggesting any pharmaceutical rep actually sells their product direct to doctors???

But the pharmacists, GP's and other doctors also get the kickbacks and incentives for recommending/prescribing certain drugs from that company, and get even more if the meet a certain quota.

So can you be more clear about this? Most pharmaceutical reps will give doctors pads and pens e.g. and sponsor 'educational events' but I think you are misrepresenting the situation if you are actually suggesting doctors receive some tangible benefit if they prescribe a company's products.

Please clarify the 'quota' suggestion above : i.e. to whom does this apply?

I am not surprised this happens, but I am surprised as to how much trust people put in GP's. I drive almost 3 hours to see a GP I trust.

Interesting that you do actually see a GP.

 

[Julia]

No one has commented on whether they do or would buy some of the 'natural' products which line the shelves of pharmacies and health food shops, also supermarkets. Anyone?

One of the few natural products that has actually been subjected to proper clinical trials is glucosamine. Following the unsuccessful use of vet prescribed products for a dodgy elbow joint in my dog, I've used this in combination with chondroitin very successfully.

Might be other similar natural products which work well?