Rugby League Louts

[scanspeak]

Everyone seems to be basing their defence on the girl who was paid to come forward that Channel 9found to try to defend Johns. She was not a very credible witness. She hardly knew her and she is in a country in which rugby was a religion. The girl might have tried to talk to her about the incident and she laughed it off. I would like 4 corners to interview her.

Johns said he was always scared of someone like 4 corners looking into this and obviously seriously regrets the incident. With all the evidence it is a bit much too say she was a slut and deserved what she got as some insinuate.

People are basically good but can make poor decisions. She was gang banged. She went to the police but the club closed around itself as clubs do so she couldn't get justice. She hid her identity and spoke to 4 corners after they chased her for no personal gain.

I can't believe the attitude of many people here. Those men have a lot to answer for.

FYI Knobby :

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5570830/group-sex-woman-other-players

"NRL sex woman 'had been with other players'

Rugby league's group sex scandal has taken a dramatic new turn, with the woman's former employer claiming the night in question wasn't the first time she'd been with football players.

John Butterfield (pictured) was the owner of the Racecourse Hotel in February 2002, and says the woman boasted to colleagues about having sex with two local rugby players, just hours before the group sex session that has rocked the NRL.

He says the woman, who was identified only as 'Clare' in an edition of the ABC's Four Corners programme, told work mates she'd had sex with two rugby players in a nightclub toilet the night before.

"She gloated to staff members about the great night she's had and the way she got them in the men's toilet and had a bit of fun with them," Mr Butterfield told 7News.

He added that she bragged about her involvement in both incidents for at least four days.

"She just did nothing but tell all the staff what a great night she had ... and to put it quite crudely... that she had the whole team in bed with her."

But rape crisis counsellors say that doesn't mean she wasn't a victim, arguing that she could have initially been in shock.

Dr Kim McGregor said, "Sometimes a rape survivor might think she was to blame and that she brought it upon herself."

As the scandal continues, Titans star Preston Campbell is the latest player from the 2002 Sharks team to deny his involvement.

But like Matthew Johns, who has been stood down from his TV role at Channel Nine since admitting his involvement, Campbell won't call for those who were there on the night to come forward.

"Oh look, that's up to them," said Campbell. "If they want to come forward they can, but that's totally up to them."

They're at odds with the Rugby League Players' Association.

Late on Friday another former Sharks player came forward. Daniel Ninness says he wasn't involved in the group sex inside the motel.

He did accept the woman's offer to go home with her, but he says they didn't have sex."

 

[Knobby22]

FYI Knobby :


"She just did nothing but tell all the staff what a great night she had ... and to put it quite crudely... that she had the whole team in bed with her."

But rape crisis counsellors say that doesn't mean she wasn't a victim, arguing that she could have initially been in shock.

Dr Kim McGregor said, "Sometimes a rape survivor might think she was to blame and that she brought it upon herself."

."

I agree.

 

[bunyip]

This article is well written and I agree with it.


One moment caught my ear. Johns' wife Trish sat with him throughout the tense interview. Asked by Grimshaw what she thought of Clare, she replied, not immediately: "I certainly wouldn't like it to be my daughter."

This was ambiguous. Did she mean: "I wouldn't like it to be my daughter (who behaved like that)?" Or did she mean: "I wouldn't like it to be my daughter (who was caught in such a terrible position)?"



But she did go to the police five days later; no one goes to the police frivolously.

As I recall, Trish Johns said 'I wouldn't like her to be my daughter.
I don't think she said 'I wouldn't like it to be my daughter.'

If Tracy Grimshaw was more on the ball she would have responded with "And would you like Mathew or someone like him to be your son, given the standard of his behaviour."?
But perhaps Grimshaw was reluctant to inflict further pain on Mrs Johns, given that she's already suffered considerable grief and embarrassment because of what her grubby, immature little husband got himself involved in.

As for the girl going to the police five days later, who knows what her motives were, particularly after spending the previous five days boasting about her exploits with Johns and his mates.

A sordid incident all round, involving some very grubby little people, both male and female.

 

[bunyip]

Rape victims don't brag with relish about the great time they had with the person or people who supposedly raped them.
And according to the girls boss and her work colleagues, she spent days on end doing exactly that - bragging with relish about her exploits with Johns & Co.

Seems highly likely that she participated just as eagerly as the blokes did, despite her claims to the contrary.

 

[Knobby22]

Rape victims don't brag with relish about the great time they had with the person or people who supposedly raped them.
And according to the girls boss and her work colleagues, she spent days on end doing exactly that - bragging with relish about her exploits with Johns & Co.

Seems highly likely that she participated just as eagerly as the blokes did, despite her claims to the contrary.

And then went to the police and then proceeded with her breakdown.

 

[bunyip]

And then went to the police and then proceeded with her breakdown.

She displayed conflicting modes of behaviour. First she boasted for days about her exploits - that alone strongly suggests willing participation on her part. Then she complained to the police and supposedly had a breakdown.

Maybe she saw an opportunity of getting that compensation package that Julia told us is available in NZ.
Or maybe the girl is or was mentally unstable.

None of us knows for certain.

 

[cordelia]

15 years ago I used to work with a very high profile AFL player. Couldn't wait for Monday mornings at work to get the low down on his/their exploits on the weekend. This sought of thing has been going on for decades. There are females out there who are effectivly AFL/NRL/NBL groupies who want to get into group sex with a few fine bodied athletes. Until you get rid of the groupies you'll always have this sought of problem within the sport. I actually feal sorry for MJ in all this and think it was absolutely disgusting what channel 9 did to one of it's own employees. Shame channel 9 shame.

i shared an apartment with a girl who made a mission of screwing not only footballers but anyone in the limelight...Sometimes there would be two or three a night....we would waych the footy and she would sit there naming who she had done!

On several occasions I went outclubbing with her ...always after a footy game. She would disappear for a couple of hours and then come back bragging about who she had just bonked


One time, a very well known player, called me at work after one of my friends interludes. She had gone off to work and somehow or anotherhe had locked himself out of the house and needed to get back in. God knows how he got my work number!!!

These girls are PREDATORS...don't be fooled.. I have seen it first hand

 

[Calliope]

Those of us who thought the Four Corners program would damage the Rugby League image, have badly misjudged the mentality of RL supporters. It's just ho-hum stuff to them.

Hordes of supporters have flooded web face pages with the support of Matthew Johns.

And this morning it is reported that this weekend gate attendances and TV audiences for the League have substantially increased.

 

[cordelia]

No, She never said she consented to any sex act. With anyone. As for your other posts Cordelia, whether or not you are male or female, quite obviously you have never experienced the situation of being a female in a group of 12 'mates' who are drunk and out for their turn. You know nothing of the feeling of powerlessness, vulnerability and terror that such a situation involves.
My argument is that fundamentally, regardless of whether a woman is drunk, sexily dressed, with one man or two, she is not consenting to sex. Just as a man, who is drunk, sexily dressed, with one man or two, is not consenting to sex. And that is the bottom line.

Metric, why are you so hung up on sheep?

why would you go back to a hotel room with two men if not to have sex!!! What were they going to do? talk about the weather! Surely you can't be serious? If two guys asked me to go back to a hotel room with them I would know exactly what was in store!

As for me knowing nothing about feeling powerless I suggest you make such a statement based on credible facts. Furthermore, this issue is not about whether or not the woman was drunk or sexily dressed and that having a bearing on her consent to sex with a group of men....


The issue is that this woman has come forward after some time making generalised and unsubstantiated claims against a well known group of rugby players...Johns being the apparant scapegoat....

This woman went of her own volition to a hotel room with two men clearly with the intention to have sex... a few more turned up but as a friend of hers has now said she was a willing participant and in fact bragged about it at work for a few days after!!!

This is not rape!!! This is a footy groupie trying to get some money and notoriety!

Prospector, its great to carry the banner for women's rights but being a zealot causes more damage

 

[nulla nulla]

Those of us who thought the Four Corners program would damage the Rugby League image, have badly misjudged the mentality of RL supporters. It's just ho-hum stuff to them.

Hordes of supporters have flooded web face pages with the support of Matthew Johns.

And this morning it is reported that this weekend gate attendances and TV audiences for the League have substantially increased.

Maybe the the increase in spectators was due to people going along to play "match the dick to the player" rather than support the players?

 

[bunyip]

"She gloated to staff members about the great night she's had and the way she got them in the men's toilet and had a bit of fun with them," Mr Butterfield told 7News.

He added that she bragged about her involvement in both incidents for at least four days.

"She just did nothing but tell all the staff what a great night she had ... and to put it quite crudely... that she had the whole team in bed with her."

But rape crisis counsellors say that doesn't mean she wasn't a victim, arguing that she could have initially been in shock.

Dr Kim McGregor said, "Sometimes a rape survivor might think she was to blame and that she brought it upon herself."


Those rape crisis counsellors don't sound too credible by saying the girl could have just been a victim in shock.


A girl bragging about her sexual exploits with a football team is not exactly behaving like a rape victim in shock.

 

[Prospector]

So where is my credibility with rape victims and offenders and how 'they' behave? Actually, all types of victims of crime and their offenders - murders, assaults and the like. Well, never managed to speak with a murder victim though...

In my former life, I was a Police Officer and have worked with more victims, and offenders, than most, if not all of you. Except maybe Julia. And one thing you very quickly learn is that the behaviour of people under stress is completely unpredictable. Far from it. Especially PTSD. The one thing all women and men feel is total lack of power.

Julia and I disagree on whether consent was formed. As do others. Many of you are saying that because she went to a room with 2 men that she was consenting to sex. I can accept that possibly she was consenting to sex with at least one of them; but no-one knows. But where is the evidence, other than other's hearsay, to say she consented to sex with multiple people who climbed through windows to get in?

And why did he apologise later that night if Clare had been fully able to stop what was happening. He felt her powelessness to control the situation. That is why he apologised.

This case probably would not have been successfully prosecuted in court. Because of the timing and lack of corroborative evidence. But she would certainly have been given the courtesy of being considered as a victim, even though her behaviour at the beginning did put her in a situation where consent or otherwise to the first two men was difficult to establish. That is a 'he said-she said' situation.

But what happened after that? We have men climbing through windows. Why?

Do not assume that because no charges were laid, that a crime did not occur.

The prior behaviour of a person who claims to have been raped is not admissable in court. The question cannot even be asked. So past history is irrelevant. A prostitute can be the victim of rape.

Some of you say I have not had the exposure to women like Clare is supposed to be; well, I think maybe I have. I could make your toes curl in fact. I have seen stuff that none of you would have seen. And with a partner who was involved in professional sport, I most certainly have seen groupies! Hell, this was at the time of Dennis Lillee, Rod Marsh, David Hookes.......and with AFL players. So yes Cordelia, I too have seen this first hand. And some nasty unreported stuff happened then too! Not with the names above though, or I would not have mentioned them..Her behaviour prior, whilst like nothing I would ever imagine doing myself in going to a room with 2 men, is not consent to anything else that followed.

If a drunk man went to a room with 2 other men, is he knowingly consenting to sex with them just by going into a room? No!

She is supposed to have bragged about it later - but after 5 days has gone to Police. Ask yourself why would she do that? Why would she 'undo' her 'persona as a successful rugby player bedder? Her going to Police is completely out of character with everything else she is purported to have done in the last few months. So why did she go to the Police and undo all her her bragging?

I am not a zealot for women Cordelia. I think women who get themselves into situations like this are stupid, their risk management is poor, they are potentially making poor decisions that expose themselves to horrible situations like this. But that doesnt give us the right to say she consented to what happened.

I do actually feel sorry for Johns; quite obviously he did something which after an hour or so he deeply regretted (having sex with the girl, not saying her raped her!), and has paid silently all these years, confessed to his wife at the time, and now publically outed.

And now, as predicted, another story erupts:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25493261-1248,00.html

And the first paragraph of how stuff like this escalates should resonate with what I have said above.

 

[scanspeak]

These girls clearly crave attention, whether it be by bonking "high-status" males, or from the media.

 

[Knobby22]

And I would just like to add that she was found by psychologists in New Zealand to be suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome.

Everyone should watch todays edition of Offsiders a sports program on ABC.
The evidence is damning. The sports commentators, all deeply in sport equally damning. Check it out.

 

[haunting]

In the whole of this thread I don't recall anyone condoning the behaviour of either the players or the girl...

1) I didn't just infer the people in this forum. I was also inferring the general rugby fraternity. If they had not been condoning this kind of behaviour, it wouldn't have been part of the culture for this long. This my perception. If you don't agree, it's quite alright.

2) Again, if there's no perception of hypocritical attitude or responses coming from various people, then, I would put it down to our differences here. Ultimately the society as a whole will decide. Everyone will have to face their own god when the time comes.

 

[Calliope]

And now, as predicted, another story erupts:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25493261-1248,00.html

And the first paragraph of how stuff like this escalates should resonate with what I have said above.

An excellent post Prospector.

I referred to the Brisbane nightclub story in a previous post. In SE Qld. the Broncos can do no wrong. For years their unsavoury escapades have been covered up, not only by the Club but the local news media generally. The disgusting behaviour by Hunt, Thaiday, and Boyd in the nightclub toilet was played down by the Police Minister while the so-called police investigations were under way. Of course she is an avid Bronco supporter. A member of the corporate box set.

The police happily accepted the trio's mobile phone films as evidence that it was consensual, although they probably filmed it for bragging rights.

The hysteria and parochialism surrounding the State of Origin games doesn't say much for the "Smart State". World events take a back seat.

Bruno Cullen, the Bronco's CEO says that things have changed since 2002. Sure. The above trio was fined but not suspended, not because of what they did, but because of the bad publicity.

Now that they realise that bad publicity doesn't worry their supporters, they probable won't persist with their phony apologies.

The only ones who can pull them into line are their sponsors, a la Cronulla.

 

[awg]

This case probably would not have been successfully prosecuted in court. Because of the timing and lack of corroborative evidence. But she would certainly have been given the courtesy of being considered as a victim, even though her behaviour at the beginning did put her in a situation where consent or otherwise to the first two men was difficult to establish. That is a 'he said-she said' situation.


Do not assume that because no charges were laid, that a crime did not occur.




And now, as predicted, another story erupts:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25493261-1248,00.html

And the first paragraph of how stuff like this escalates should resonate with what I have said above.

IMO the reason this case could never progress would have certainly been the statements of her workmates= Case Closed. (would that not kill the case stone dead, Prospector?

I am unaware how the Criminal Victims Compo system works in NZ, but I do know that here, every low-life that ever gets injured in Oz, is very keen to get up to $A50k...would you agree Prospector?..(not talking about the "genuine" ones)


Is the above link, is that the chick that went into the men's dunny and gave 3 Broncos head?...maybe they should charge them and her with public indecency!

sorry, but i doubt anyone would treat a woman with "respect" in those situations. (mens toilet..i am not comfortable with women entering the mens toilet, except if they need to use it for the approved purpose)

Human sexuality is a vastly interesting topic.

One textbook at my wifes office is a study of "Sexual Deviancy"

I skimmed it once, and it was interesting how they define and measure what constitutes deviancy...it was basically measured by standard deviation from the mean.

I do recall voyeurism was one topic included

 

[moXJO]

The police happily accepted the trio's mobile phone films as evidence that it was consensual, although they probably filmed it for bragging rights.

This is the big issue that needs to be dealt with imo. These guys have learnt to cover there bases. The NRL players can be put in as many education programs as you like and this situation will still arise. Women also need to learn that clearly stating 'no' in a situation she is initially unsure of is vital. Being taught that assertiveness is needed in these situations is clearly a must. Alcohol consumption is also a massive factor.

 

[Prospector]

IMO the reason this case could never progress would have certainly been the statements of her workmates= Case Closed. (would that not kill the case stone dead, Prospector?

No, it is all hearsay which is inadmissable in court. It would however be a part of the decision making as to the witness and the ability of the prosecution to prove its case. One thing that isnt widely known is that many cases simply dont go to court, not because the police dont think a crime has been committed, but they just cant get that vital piece of evidence that clinches the case for them. Police and Prosecution actually go through every case before deciding to go to Court, and if there is not almost definite agreement that the offender will be found guilty (say 90% or thereabouts) then they will not proceed. Unless of course that new evidence is found. I suspect in the next few years, with the arrival of DNA testing, that a lot more crimes in the past are going to be solved.

This is relevant but :topic

In SA, in the late 70's, we had a series of crimes against teenage boys. "The Family' crimes The boys were abducted off the street, drugged, and held captive for a few days or weeks, with unspeakable crimes, including 'surgery' being done on them. Then they were killed. I think there were about 5 lads in all who were killed, but others excaped, aged in the mid teens. One of them was the son of our Channel 9 News reader - Rob Kelvin - so the kids came from 'good' families.

The Police know who 'The Family' are; they have told the victims mothers who they are, but so far they have only managed to convict one of them, an accountant named Bevan Spencer Von Einem. They have said that the others are a Surgeon (hence the surgery and the drugs to stupify), a Businessman, and a prominent lawyer. But they cannot arrest these men until they get the last bit of evidence. They are hoping for a death bed confession.

http://www.thecrimeweb.com/voneinem.htm

A very sad read.

South Australia has an appalling history for horrible crimes.

 

[awg]

No, it is all hearsay which is inadmissable in court. It would however be a part of the decision making as to the witness and the ability of the prosecution to prove its case. One thing that isnt widely known is that many cases simply dont go to court, not because the police dont think a crime has been committed, but they just cant get that vital piece of evidence that clinches the case for them. Police and Prosecution actually go through every case before deciding to go to Court, and if there is not almost definite agreement that the offender will be found guilty (say 90% or thereabouts) then they will not proceed. .

Thanks for that clarification.

However, your reply does highlight something I am sure you would have experienced as a Police Officer.

They have much onerous work to do.

I have found them to be just as judgemental as anyone else.

Once they heard what her workmates had to say, balanced with the other circs of the case, that would have lessened their enthusiasm to prosecute this matter...surely?

having said that, it does sound like they did a thorough investigation, and I get the sense the local cops are pretty disgusted by the behaviour of said "louts"