Afghanistan

[sinner]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

probally would have stayed in for 20years had the work load not been so high.

You don't think it has anything to do with what they have seen and done being irreconcilable with what they have been told and tell themselves they are doing? I'd really appreciate if you would ask them about this.

What are our actual objectives for Afghanistan and were they for Iraq? What is the completion criteria for these mission objectives? Will they ever realistically be filled?

I know about the sense of duty to defend the country. No matter what he or she is doing a soldier is defending the country and acting on orders which means they don't need to think about their actions.

But one has to be awful obedient and patriotic to really believe they are in these countries to defend their families. If anything their presence their has increased Australia's ranking on the hit-list?

"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die" a quote by Tennyson often used by soldiers (with a "ours is not to make reply" stuck in front) and those who disagree with me

How can we have this attitude about the people we send to die for us! How can this be part of their warrior code?

Would they really have stayed for more tours-of-duty if they had been reduced to 3 months at a time or something? Or doubled the amount of forces there?

 

[Tysonboss1]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

You don't think it has anything to do with what they have seen and done being irreconcilable with what they have been told and tell themselves they are doing? I'd really appreciate if you would ask them about this.

Most of them didn't really mind going to afganistan the first and second time, But it does put a load of stress on their families back home. But you throw a third or fourth tour at them and they begin to object and possibly discharge.

The reason that there is a high turn over of troops that leave after service over seas is not because off the "things they have seen and done" as you put it, It's more that after a few trips away they have probally already done over 6 years in the army and are pretty cashed up, paid of the mortgage and want to settle down and live a normal life, probally move back to their home town.

After all once you have done a few trips away you have probally done everything that you joined for in the first place, you have live all the adventures, and family becomes more important.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

I know about the sense of duty to defend the country. No matter what he or she is doing a soldier is defending the country and acting on orders which means they don't need to think about their actions.

But one has to be awful obedient and patriotic to really believe they are in these countries to defend their families. If anything their presence their has increased Australia's ranking on the hit-list?

Actually, the atitude of most of the SAS and other SF forces is not that they are "defending Australia and their families" in some romanticly patriotic story like from the tales of the anzac legend.

Generally they consider them selves to be professial soldiers who are employed to "Protect Australia and her Interests" wheather those interests be territorial, diplomatic, political etc etc it matters not to them.

Does a Chubb armor guard sit there analizing the pro's and con's of the capitalist system, the flaws of the banking system, does he question what part he is playing in this global finacel system.... I think not, he is given a mission to transport cash from Point A to Point B, All he will focus on is getting his mission done while keeping himself and his mates safe,... this is how a soldier operates, mission focused, one mission at a time, always trying to operate the best he can looking up for his mates.

 

[Tysonboss1]

speaking of afganistan, It will probally start heating up as it does as they head into spring, the normal taliban spring offensive shall be kicking of soon. I wish our boys all the best, May their wits be keen, their eye's sharp and their shots straight.

 

[sinner]

Well Tysonboss thanks for putting my mind at ease.

It really helps me to know the cream of our "Defence" Force consists of automatons with guns, ready to bark and bite when the man in the suit pulls their chain.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Well Tysonboss thanks for putting my mind at ease.

It really helps me to know the cream of our "Defence" Force consists of automatons with guns, ready to bark and bite when the man in the suit pulls their chain.

Well I don't agree with the word Automatons, but as for what you say about being ready to bark and bite at command, well offcourse they do, would you expect that they have a deep and meaning discussion group about every command they are given, It's up to the people that sit behind desks to worry about that stuff,

The SAS soldiers job is to keep fit and missions ready, maintain their skills and when they are given a job no matter how small or large they will carry it out as if it were the most important thing in the world, it will be the only thing on their mind it has to be that way, I know it is hard for some one who hasn't experianced it to understand.

 

[Sean K]

Well Tysonboss thanks for putting my mind at ease.

It really helps me to know the cream of our "Defence" Force consists of automatons with guns, ready to bark and bite when the man in the suit pulls their chain.

I don't think Tysonboss was really trying to convey that intent sinner. He's right about SAS (all soldiers really) being professionals and simply doing their duty, one they're trained for. No different to a doctor completing a medical degree and then being asked to perform an operation. Australian soldiers are probably the least 'automatons' in the world actually, and it's their initiative that sets them apart from many others.

 

[sting]

Democracy within the ranks.......

Who hasn't played the age old game...Paper scissors RANK

which I must say is better than playing the "Dance of the flaming ********" game.

But as for reason for wanting to go oversea's. Soldiers train and train and train ad nauseum the tour gives them the chance to justify and verify the tactics drummed into them. I agree with Tysonboss the extended tours away which places strain on family and relationships as well as the eroding benefits that we had to endureare the main reasons for getting out after 2 or 3 tours. I wonder how many people in the public sector would stay in their job when in the case of one of my troopies who had his ceiling in his accommadation block fall down on him while he was sleeping. I got out (FULLTIME)after 20yrs under the old Super Scheme so it was beneficial for me to stay that long and with greater opportunities on the outside it was time to be at home for annivesaries birthdays etc, well up until now that is I wonder if the retention rate will increase given the job uncertainty on the outside.

It wasnt that long ago you could pull the pin and be offered a Job in the NT Police and/or 2 or 3 mining jobs. And if that wasn't enough the "Dash for Cash" runs back to Iraq as private security contract Pers. made it worthwhile.

When I first got out and joined the outside workforce I was lost with all the time on my hands so I rejoined as a GRES Officer.


UBIQUE

 

[gav]

Re: Afghanistan - Australia's next Vietnam?

Sting brings up a good point, the lack of incentive to stay is a very large part of the retention problem. I was under the new Super Scheme, did 1 tour (not Afghanistan), was sick of the lifestyle so got out after doing just over 4yrs service. Hardly ever got to home to see my family, as the majority of the time we were on leave we weren't allowed leave the Darwin region (DACC/cyclone duty).

2yrs later I'm earning more than I was in the Army, in a job I enjoy. Can see my family whenver I want, do what I want when I want. A lot of the guys that joined when I did are out now, and the majority of the ones who are still in want out.

Also, working under a hierarchy where the majority want out but stay in waiting for their 20yr benefits isn't the most pleasant experience either. The difference between the Old Super Scheme and New scheme are a key factor.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in the Army. Got to experience things not many others get to, learnt a lot about myself and the world. But the lack of incentives sees a lot of soldiers around my age/experience level leave. Even the "critical trade" incentives (to which I was eligible for) are pretty pathetic.

 

[Tysonboss1]

When I first got out and joined the outside workforce I was lost with all the time on my hands so I rejoined as a GRES Officer.


UBIQUE

I am thinking about joining the gres shortly, I have been out for a bit over three years now and I do miss army life a bit. I wouldn't go full time again, But I would like to be able to go for a bash in a Mog and have a shoot every now and then, and get a bit of tax free pay for doing it.

 

[Tysonboss1]

And if that wasn't enough the "Dash for Cash" runs back to Iraq as private security contract Pers. made it worthwhile.

Yeah security work in Iraq sounds great when your mates are making it out to be a cash banaza swan trip, full of beers and BBQs with the odd convoy run thrown in sending you photos like this,

then 3 days later he emails you this photo and says, "yeah it was a close one.we were pretty lucky, the Rocket the hit the windscreen didn't explode" and you think maybe I am better off in sydney.

 

[Buddy]

From the Australian.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25174267-601,00.html

Now, at least, the USA have no excuse not to eliminate, via severe death, this combatant. What I dont understand is why the military simply didn't eliminate these combatants prior to capture rather than take them to Guantanamo. Simple solution - no combatants, no problem.

 

[Sean K]

Afghanistan has just started by the look.

Massive committment, or we fail in turning this region around.

I'm in 2 minds still.

Should we just let them go for it and live their own lives, growing future jihadists and herion, and hopefully, eventually, get it right and join the modern world.

Or, try to forcibly change things, as we are trying to.



Looks like were all going for option 2 right now, with a very long term committment.


War 'will last well into next decade'
Geoff Elliott and Patrica Karvelas | March 23, 2009

AUSTRALIA should be prepared for a long engagement in Afghanistan of a decade or more, according to leading US military strategists.

Kevin Rudd will hold his first face-to-face meeting with US President Barack Obama at the White House this week just as Washington prepares to up the ante in Afghanistan, hoping allies commit more resources to the fight.

 

[Sean K]

Um, why are we supporting this?

I'm a little confused now.




New Afghanistan Laws Regarding Women

The U.N. Human Rights Commissioner, Navi Pillay says a new Afghan law restricting women's rights violates Afghanistan's constitution as well as universal standards. She urges the Afghan government to rescind the new law.

U.N. Human Rights Chief, Navi Pillay, calls the new Afghan law a huge step in the wrong direction. She says the law is another clear indication that the human rights situation in Afghanistan is getting worse not better.

Her spokesman, Rupert Colville, tells VOA, the new law is extremely damaging to women. He says it violates international laws such as the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. He says it also breeches Afghanistan's constitution, which calls for equal rights for men and women.

"It is really very reminiscent of the Taliban type decrees in the 1990's. It forbids women to leave their homes except for very exceptional purposes," Colville said. "It forbids them to work or receive education without their husband's express permission. It even permits marital rape, essentially women cannot refuse sexual relations unless they are sick."

The new law which was passed by Afghanistan's Parliament last month, has not yet been published, but President Hamid Karzai, who faces a tough re-election campaign, has already approved it.

News reports say the law strips mothers of custody rights to their children in case of divorce. It makes it impossible for wives to inherit houses and land from their husbands, though husbands may inherit real estate from their wives.

 

[disarray]

wow i'm shocked. truly.

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
-- Qur'an 4:34

 

[Calliope]

Any chance of military or political resolution in Afghanistan is a forlorn hope in the absence of stability in Pakistan, and that seems less likely every day.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/warning...-of-collapse-within-months-20090412-a40u.html

PAKISTAN could collapse within months, one of the more influential counter-insurgency voices in Washington says.

The warning comes as the US scrambles to redeploy its military forces and diplomats in an attempt to stem rising violence and anarchy in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"We have to face the fact that if Pakistan collapses it will dwarf anything we have seen so far in whatever we're calling the war on terror now," said David Kilcullen, a former Australian Army officer who was a specialist adviser for the Bush administration and is now a consultant to the Obama White House.

"You just can't say that you're not going to worry about al-Qaeda taking control of Pakistan and its nukes," he said.

 

[Sean K]

Looks like an extra infantry company to secure the election, more sioldiers to be embedded into the Afghan Bde as part of the Omlette plan, and another troop of engineers and a few extra loggies. I reckon the election troops will probably stay as a permanent presence for extra security.

It's not what is really needed though, imo. The training is essential, but Afghanistan needs more professional soldiers in the front line fighting and defeating the Taliban. That should have meant at least a infantry battalion with relevent support including more LAVs, helicopters, and gunners. And, where are our ARH's? Did we buy them just to sit in a shed in Darwin getting rusty? How long does it take to fit them and have pilots converted?

 

[pacestick]

I have always believed that this was at least a multi decade commitment to actually win . More likely over 100 years . if you just look at the history of invaders into afghanistan there is no easy victoty

 

[shag]

i get the feeling the people want to stop growing dope this time. u cant eat dope like corn, dope can feed yr family indirectly but its damn hard work too(scraping the opiates off of the poppies etc). they must see the heroin adicts. and its the people that count in the end. give them a sense of security, some infastructure(water first) and keep the talis in the hills and pakistan and it might not take a hundred yrs.
obamas asked for the nz sas again, but they prob have been there all the time anyway. all nz is good for nowadays is a few engineers and gun fodder.
when they go to war, they have to borrow gear off of the states etc.
the new light armoured/all terrain vehicles seem like overpriced metal. some european bit of tin.
they still have the poor old skyhawks in limbo costing money.
i bought a unimog off of them once, 25k nz. just run in. faultless. obviously in the 80's they bought a few hundred too many.
grt for burning the streets and riverbeds.

 

[Calliope]

Army bureaucrats sitting safely in their offices in Canberra come up with some crazy decisions, but this one takes the cake.

Diggers face likely charges on child deaths

THE Director of Military Prosecutions wants to take the unprecedented step of charging several Defence Force commandos with the deaths of five children during a raid in Afghanistan last year.

While the Director of Military Prosecutions, Brigadier Lyn McDade, has not made her final decision, the prospect of charges has infuriated senior officers, with the Chief of Army, Lieutenant-General Ken Gillespie, and other commanders expressing concern in writing.

Some in the Defence hierarchy are concerned it will further erode public support for the war and undermine the way soldiers operate in Afghanistan.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/diggers-face-likely-charges-on-child-deaths-20100826-13u8h.html