Turn a blind eye

[Trembling Hand]

these are interesting subjects. take slavery - the west have been the first society in history to enact a total emancipation of slaves and have set up all sorts of laws and edicts to outlaw it, yet for some reason we are still obsessed with carrying the guilt for what happened over 100 years ago.

No guilt for what I had no part in at the time but accknowledgement that the industrial revolution, which pushed the west to where we are now, got a huge leg up from theses thing while others were left behind.

i'm not saying ignore them, i'm saying don't feed them or give them cash handouts. provide education and assistance in infrastructure development so they have the tools to sort the problem out themselves. if they prove unable to rise above ancient tribal rivalries and continue to genocide each other based on some primative clan based division then that's their business.

Well there ya go. We agree!!

 

[disarray]

Well there ya go. We agree!!

pfft we'll never get a 20 page thread going with thinking like that!

 

[darnsmall]

pfft we'll never get a 20 page thread going with thinking like that!

lol yeah I guess we can wrap it up now then eh.


I would agree with investing in others future for a quantifiable return on investment. So build schools and infrastructure with our "investment" for a return. Build a profit into the charity and make it less of a charity and you might have a chance

 

[So_Cynical]

There was support offered for Disarray's position by an African consultant economist on Radio National's "PM" programme this evening. When an African delivers such a judgment it probably holds some weight.

Transcript here:

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2492857.htm

Julia hes selling a book...he has an agenda.

Ghana for example gets some AID has done for years...its a free proper democracy, they just
had there 4th proper election, no violence and a change of government.

There Banking system works...the Govt workers get payed, the hospitals have doctors, inflation
is low and predictable, there's law and order and freehold land titles, industrial development.

2008 GDP growth of 6.7%, raising life expectancy rates, higher standards
of living, free floating currency with no exchange restrictions...etc etc

http://www.modernghana.com/news/201556/1/uncertainty-characterizes-growth-rate.html

http://www.ghana.gov.gh/economy_of_ghana

Without international support and most importantly debt restructuring and debt forgiveness,
this growth just wouldn't of been fiscally possible.

Now having said all that it still takes 4 months to get a new phone connection...but 2 minutes
to get a Mobile up and running.
_______

Its so annoying how people see something on the news and just generalize to the extremes
without really looking into the detail...Mugabe is in power because the crony's around him
wont let him go quietly, and just don't want him to...they like there big houses and fat wallets,
and don't particularly fancy a trip to visit the UN prosecutors in The Hague.

 

[Julia]

Julia hes selling a book...he has an agenda.

He's actually a she, if it matters.

I realise she is selling a book. But isn't the point that the book is saying what she has said in the interview?

I'm personally ambivalent about this subject.
Was just remarking that Disarray was not alone in his view.

 

[Calliope]

On the thread covering the Israeli/ Hamas war I queried why families living in such a hell hole as the Gaza Strip would have average sized families of six children. Why would women bring children into a world of no jobs and no hope for the future. Surely if they could bring in rockets, they could bring in contraceptives.

It was a rhetorical question really, because I already knew the answer.

 

[disarray]

i had a good chat with a cab driver from ghana a few weeks ago and he was explaining the situation in his country. apparently it was chaotic with coups and all sorts of problems until the military organised elections and went to civilian government - very thailand-esque.

his major discussion point was tension between muslims in the north and catholics in the south and his main insight which i found very enlightening regarded the education system.

muslim education revolves around madrasses which are essentially seminaries which teach the koran and nothing else really useful. when a student graduates from a madrass they can regurgiate all kinds of muslim law and koran quotes but don't actually have any useful skills that they can apply to society so its easy to radicalise and decide blowing yourself up is a viable life choice.

what the ghanan government has done is make standard schooling mandatory for all children for 6 hours a day where they study maths, science, english etc. and then the studends can go to the madrass afterwards. he thinks it has gone a long way to settling down some of the divisions in the country and he seemed quite positive about the future direction of ghana.

education and economics, the key to stability. sorry for the hijack, its just that so_cynicals post reminded me of it.

 

[mayk]

i had a good chat with a cab driver from ghana a few weeks ago and he was explaining the situation in his country. apparently it was chaotic with coups and all sorts of problems until the military organised elections and went to civilian government - very thailand-esque.

his major discussion point was tension between muslims in the north and catholics in the south and his main insight which i found very enlightening regarded the education system.

muslim education revolves around madrasses which are essentially seminaries which teach the koran and nothing else really useful. when a student graduates from a madrass they can regurgiate all kinds of muslim law and koran quotes but don't actually have any useful skills that they can apply to society so its easy to radicalise and decide blowing yourself up is a viable life choice.

what the ghanan government has done is make standard schooling mandatory for all children for 6 hours a day where they study maths, science, english etc. and then the studends can go to the madrass afterwards. he thinks it has gone a long way to settling down some of the divisions in the country and he seemed quite positive about the future direction of ghana.

education and economics, the key to stability. sorry for the hijack, its just that so_cynicals post reminded me of it.

So similarly Christianity should be responsible for the decline of Zimbabwe? Power grab and human nature has nothing to do with the atrocities committed in Africa, it is all because of Islam....

 

[Trembling Hand]

On the thread covering the Israeli/ Hamas war I queried why families living in such a hell hole as the Gaza Strip would have average sized families of six children. Why would women bring children into a world of no jobs and no hope for the future. Surely if they could bring in rockets, they could bring in contraceptives.

It was a rhetorical question really, because I already knew the answer.

Let me be the idiot who asks the question in response to a rhetorical question :

Why more cannon fodder??

 

[disarray]

So similarly Christianity should be responsible for the decline of Zimbabwe? Power grab and human nature has nothing to do with the atrocities committed in Africa, it is all because of Islam....

noooooo, it's about the potential offered by educational opportunities. education needs to be broad and encompass a range of subjects, based upon the western model would be a good start.

compare to islamic education or traditional confucian education or some such, the scope of knowledge taught is extremely limited and only offers narrow paths for advancement. someone who can cite the koran can't go off and apply those principles to agriculture or engineering which makes the education they have pretty bloody useless for any practical kind of purpose.

the difference between islamic and christian cultural educational systems (ghana being a case in point) is that broad education curriculum is mandatory in the west and the priest class go to the seminary to study useless god stuff AFTER they have completed a secular education. in many islamic societies however the only education that is offered is in a madrass so there aren't any useful skills imparted to the students so it is extemely difficult to advance and break out of ingrained social cycles because the students don't know any better. and extreme islamic societies don't educate their women anyway because they considered as little more than breeding cows (as the taliban demonstrated)

however i will take you to task on the "islam responsible for atrocities in africa" because yes, in many places it is. sudan ring a bell? nigeria? somalia? of course its all about power grab and human nature, that much is obvious, its the motivation and justification that is the point of interest in conflict.

 

[mayk]

noooooo, it's about the potential offered by educational opportunities. education needs to be broad and encompass a range of subjects, based upon the western model would be a good start.

compare to islamic education or traditional confucian education or some such, the scope of knowledge taught is extremely limited and only offers narrow paths for advancement. someone who can cite the koran can't go off and apply those principles to agriculture or engineering which makes the education they have pretty bloody useless for any practical kind of purpose.

the difference between islamic and christian cultural educational systems (ghana being a case in point) is that broad education curriculum is mandatory in the west and the priest class go to the seminary to study useless god stuff AFTER they have completed a secular education. in many islamic societies however the only education that is offered is in a madrass so there aren't any useful skills imparted to the students so it is extemely difficult to advance and break out of ingrained social cycles because the students don't know any better. and extreme islamic societies don't educate their women anyway because they considered as little more than breeding cows (as the taliban demonstrated)

however i will take you to task on the "islam responsible for atrocities in africa" because yes, in many places it is. sudan ring a bell? nigeria? somalia? of course its all about power grab and human nature, that much is obvious, its the motivation and justification that is the point of interest in conflict.

Here you go, I have highlighted the part important for you. Always disassociate culture from religion and you might see the difference clearly.

 

[darnsmall]

Telling it like it is...go Ross
http://business.smh.com.au/business/the-punters-love-a-good-disaster-20090217-8a98.html

 

[disarray]

Always disassociate culture from religion and you might see the difference clearly.

you are wrong. religion and culture are inextricably tied up in each other, this accounts for not only the foundation of religions but also how successfully they are spread and the method by which they are spread. what were the social conditions that a particular religion was founded in? did the believers gain converts by preaching or by warfare? how successful were the differing religions in various racial, cultural and geographic areas?

to disassociate one from the other and view them in isolation is to make gross simplifications of the complex tapestry of human society and culture. i also think race plays a big part in this tapestry as well but some people can't help but get offended when you suggest that we aren't all exact biologoical clones of each other and subtle things like hormone levels, neurotransmitters, specific physical adaptions, and racial intelligence types might actually account for the differences in sociology and culture we see all around the world.

 

[mayk]

you are wrong. religion and culture are inextricably tied up in each other, this accounts for not only the foundation of religions but also how successfully they are spread and the method by which they are spread. what were the social conditions that a particular religion was founded in? did the believers gain converts by preaching or by warfare? how successful were the differing religions in various racial, cultural and geographic areas?

to disassociate one from the other and view them in isolation is to make gross simplifications of the complex tapestry of human society and culture. i also think race plays a big part in this tapestry as well but some people can't help but get offended when you suggest that we aren't all exact biologoical clones of each other and subtle things like hormone levels, neurotransmitters, specific physical adaptions, and racial intelligence types might actually account for the differences in sociology and culture we see all around the world.

I humbly disagree with all this bullsh*t in bold. How come you can be saved by the blood of a black person of the same type, but can die instantly, if injected with the blood of your own race of the wrong blood type? So some races are not intelligent enough. What can I say?

Religion and culture are different, and if you are not able to see the difference then I guess you have not traveled enough. While I can agree that some cultures are more adapt at picking one religion over another because of their culture/heritage etc.

 

[tigerboi]

Re:Our people should always come first

This is our own back yard.
Of course its prominent.

When the twin towers were hit what did you see?
When Zimbabwe is suffering what do you see?

If an Aussie is in need and your an Aussie you'd want to be pushing to the front of the line to give a hand. That's what we do.

There's no turning a blind eye here.
Simply priorities.

Right here and Right now those in Victoria AND FNQ should be every Aussie's no 1 priority.

great post techie...these are our people & we should always do the best for them.we should come first always.

In regards to the Victorian Bushfires;

I understand this will not be well taken but its something that has to be wrote.

Over the past week, I have not been able to turn on the television without some reporter or politician telling me how bad the situation is, how this is a national tragedy. With foreign media and politicians offering support and offering their help and sorrow.

I honestly feel for everyone effected, it is a terrible hardship to endure.

And from recent reports the death-toll could rise to 230, with a number of more townships in ruins.

But lets look at the broader picture:

And right now watching TV see adverts asking me to donate...

Can people really turn a blind eye to such injustices in the third world but commend the efforts of "us australians for uniting together"

This situation has made me feel sick, and after seeing such destruction and pain in Victoria I feel there will no change in global policy towards those in true need.

I know where my donations are going.

you want to hope you never get left in the street with just the clothes on your back,you wont be wondering about other people who can NEVER feed themselves.you"ll have your hand out for help from your fellow aussies who know how tough it is.btw before you get the violin out for the rest of the world...http://www.ausaid.gov.au/

dont forget $2.5b to indonesia & they hate our guts,they sent $1m back!
meanwhile we got our people cant get their teeth fixed...

 

[darnsmall]

Re: Our people should always come first

great post techie...these are our people & we should always do the best for them.we should come first always.



you want to hope you never get left in the street with just the clothes on your back,you wont be wondering about other people who can NEVER feed themselves.you"ll have your hand out for help from your fellow aussies who know how tough it is.btw before you get the violin out for the rest of the world...http://www.ausaid.gov.au/

dont forget $2.5b to indonesia & they hate our guts,they sent $1m back!
meanwhile we got our people cant get their teeth fixed...

Yeah but Indo will hopefully become a major trading partner as they progress buying everything from us. I thought thats the reason we're so 'nice' to them

 

[disarray]

I humbly disagree with all this bullsh*t in bold. How come you can be saved by the blood of a black person of the same type, but can die instantly, if injected with the blood of your own race of the wrong blood type? So some races are not intelligent enough. What can I say?

because i said the differences are subtle. on the whole we are the same species, we can interbreed, take transplants, blood transfusions etc. but we are a very VERY finely tuned organism and there is still a lot we don't know, yet we continue to make broad sweeping assumptions that everything is the same for everyone. it's not, brain sizes are different, hormone levels are different, neurotransmitter concentrations, enzymes, stages of neurological development, types of iq, hand / eye coordination, muscle types are all different between racial subsets of humans yet any attempt to tie these factual differences into a broader social and cultural context is met with what can only be described as a totalitarian level of thought policing.

Religion and culture are different, and if you are not able to see the difference then I guess you have not traveled enough. While I can agree that some cultures are more adapt at picking one religion over another because of their culture/heritage etc.

yes religion and culture and race are different HOWEVER THEY ARE INTERRELATED. they do not exist in isolation of each other and to act like they are is to completely misunderstand the nature of the species and how we develop and adapt our social structures.

nowhere am i making value judgements saying one group is superior to the other, we are better because of blah blah and so and so are untermenschen because of something else, i am saying that race influences culture influences religion and these must be examined as a whole rather than treated as seperate entities that aren't subject to these fundamental aspects of humanity.

and i've spent a lot of time and money travelling the world thanks, i just saw it differently to you.

 

[beerwm]

Re: Our people should always come first

great post techie...these are our people & we should always do the best for them.we should come first always.



you want to hope you never get left in the street with just the clothes on your back,you wont be wondering about other people who can NEVER feed themselves.you"ll have your hand out for help from your fellow aussies who know how tough it is.btw before you get the violin out for the rest of the world...http://www.ausaid.gov.au/

dont forget $2.5b to indonesia & they hate our guts,they sent $1m back!
meanwhile we got our people cant get their teeth fixed...

you're right, the rich should support the rich. white people should help white people., a few aussies with bad teeth deserve our billions $$$... lets forget about those 30,000 children who die of starvation each day.

lovely ideals you hold tiger,

please wow us all with another of your thought-out posts.

 

[Julia]

Re: Our people should always come first

you're right, the rich should support the rich. white people should help white people., a few aussies with bad teeth deserve our billions $$$... lets forget about those 30,000 children who die of starvation each day.

Yes, Australians do in fact deserve to have dental care. Why should teeth be different from any other part of the body? It's crazy that we have Medicare but (except for a few chronically ill people) people's teeth are left to rot if they can't afford to pay for a private dentist.

And given that last year I paid $4000 for one tooth, a person on a low income just can't afford adequate dental care.