Turn a blind eye

[beerwm]

I do get your point, and agree. However, the timing is very questionable.

Obviously there is a distinction made between which sufferers are more prioritised/deserved of financial assistance.

This is a personal choice (to some very personal) that is most beneficial if kept to oneself.

I understand your points very clearly beerwm.

It is a tender issue, and I think many people find the reality inconvenient. But I feel it should be discussed, afterall ignoring it doesnt make it go away.

Regarding government financial assistance, im not sure how personal the issue is and would like a larger chunk of my taxes diverted to those in dire need. [maybe instead of school insulation or plasma/pokies handouts]

 

[The Once-ler]

Why have children if there is no food, no water, no medical help?

I would happily donate some money for condoms.

How dare you write that vile racist stuff?

Unfortunately, it is exactly correct. Africa is heading for a disaster of monumental proportions, and while the west continues to feed them, without insisting that they implement birth control, the disaster is just being pushed back to a later date.

The population of Ethiopia is now almost double what it was in the 1984 famine, and the population will double again in the next few decades. Look at a dozen other countries, and it's all the same. Nigeria has 150 million people, as has Bangladesh. Ethiopia has 80 million. Women in these places are having 5 to 6 kids!

When the big famine happens eventually, Africa, plus a lot of other places will have their environment totally decimated as the starving masses plunder every last bit of food and resource.

I will not donate money to any cause where overpopulation is the problem until we stop just feeding these people, but start enforcing population control. However, it would mainly be a waste of time anyway. They don't want smaller families.

The current genocide going on over there is all to do with too many people. Imagine what it will be like in 30 years time? All we will be able to do is put a wall around the place and let nature do it's work.

Sorry about all that, but it's about time we stopped kiding ourselves, and be more homest about whats happening here.

 

[Wysiwyg]

I find it interesting the collective consciousness of these groups is still pro reproduction.The logic seems to be that for the group to survive they need to reproduce.Ironically this is exactly what is the problem in a land that is unsustainable to a large group of humans.

Probably deep seated thought patterns.Survival rational (irrational )

 

[Trembling Hand]

Systemic Poverty = very complex situation.

But I don't think you can blame over population as the main cause. Its the result of basket case countries not the cause. If you know 4 kids are likely to die before they reach 10 strangely the result is you end up having 8! Seems stupid to someone sitting in luxury in the "lucky country" on the other side of the world but it would. When the biggest problem an Aussie has is not get their share of the wealth pie!! Then take Zimbabwe. It has 12 million people in double the size of Victoria(AUS). 8 years ago it was a net exporter of food and a functioning economy.

In such a short time it has turned into a basket case. In 8 years! How can you blame the population for that?



Life expectancy at birth for males in Zimbabwe has dramatically declined since 1990 from 60 to 37, among the lowest in the world. Life expectancy for females is even lower at 34 years.

And the funny thing is with population growth the best way it seems to decrease it is to increase living standards, education, health, housing etc decreases population growth not increases it.

It would seem that anyone on the other side of the world scoffing at Africa's inability to control their own population can actually put their all knowing wisdom to good use and help by contributing to educational aid. If they wanted to of course

 

[disarray]

In such a short time it has turned into a basket case. In 8 years! How can you blame the population for that?

who do you blame? plenty of zimbabweans were quick to jump on the "blame whitey" bandwagon, confiscate farmers land and destroy the food production infratructure without thinking about future consequences.

it's not our job to save the world, its our job to look after our own. house our homeless, feed our hungry, care for our aged and save surpluses for hard times. now i'm all for offering education and infrastructure development support to the third world, but sending food aid to africa is like feeding pigeons in the park. and under no circumstances should we be sending money over there.

 

[Trembling Hand]

who do you blame? plenty of zimbabweans were quick to jump on the "blame whitey" bandwagon, confiscate farmers land and destroy the food production infratructure without thinking about future consequences.

it's not our job to save the world, its our job to look after our own. house our homeless, feed our hungry, care for our aged and save surpluses for hard times. now i'm all for offering education and infrastructure development support to the third world, but sending food aid to africa is like feeding pigeons in the park. and under no circumstances should we be sending money over there.

JesssuSS!!

My point is that just because some nutter decides to rape a nation of their ability to look after themselves doesn't give the right for someone who was lucky enough to live in a stable country such as Aus to say "bad luck it's their fault for....... having so many kids, putting up with a dictator, fighting wars."

Come on. Looking after your own back yard is fine in theory except we take/pillage from many other backyards to get ours looking oh so right to erect our under cover bbq's.

If you can sit in your yard and not see how you were lucky enough to be plopped there and all that came before it then you are lucky. Other like to look over the fence because they believe it all to be linked.

 

[beerwm]

it's not our job to save the world, its our job to look after our own. house our homeless, feed our hungry, care for our aged and save surpluses for hard times...and under no circumstances should we be sending money over there.

I dont know what to say to this comment, truly remarkable how some people think.

 

[MR.]

I dont know what to say to this comment, truly remarkable how some people think.

beerwm, so what's your answer?

Sending part of our taxes would be fair if every country did. Taxes must go up, so...... ok.......! How long do we supply support?

Too many people in the world full stop.

As for the fire victims, I will say, I feel we have raised enough $$$
Next week some other individual will lose via fire / flood / cyclone / bad investments / car accident and this family will get next to nothing....

 

[darnsmall]

In regards to the Victorian Bushfires;

I understand this will not be well taken but its something that has to be wrote.

Over the past week, I have not been able to turn on the television without some reporter or politician telling me how bad the situation is, how this is a national tragedy. With foreign media and politicians offering support and offering their help and sorrow.

I honestly feel for everyone effected, it is a terrible hardship to endure.

And from recent reports the death-toll could rise to 230, with a number of more townships in ruins.

But lets look at the broader picture:





And right now watching TV see adverts asking me to donate...

Can people really turn a blind eye to such injustices in the third world but commend the efforts of "us australians for uniting together"

This situation has made me feel sick, and after seeing such destruction and pain in Victoria I feel there will no change in global policy towards those in true need.

I know where my donations are going.

completely agree with you...
I think this tradgedy is just closer to home in the sense these are people we could relate to, could have known, could have visited, it could have been us. And its a nice big definable disaster, its not drawn out...its easy to see whats happened and connect with. Easy news I guess.
This will never change, if some big mean dictator took all these millions of kids and killed them in one hit...you'd have your sympathy and donations. or replace dictator with any other quick definable moment that can end life in a very public display and you've got yourself a disaster that people can relate to or connect with.

I don't think there is anything bad about the attention this is getting, at least there is something that people can care about enough to do something to help.

 

[beerwm]

beerwm, so what's your answer?

Sending part of our taxes would be fair if every country did. Taxes must go up, so...... ok.......! How long do we supply support?

Too many people in the world full stop.

As for the fire victims, I will say, I feel we have raised enough $$$
Next week some other individual will lose via fire / flood / cyclone / bad investments / car accident and this family will get next to nothing....

this thread isnt about an answer,

I am just trying to give people some perspective on what happens beyond our borders, In the end its your choice where your donations go...or dont.

Sure you cant save the whole world, but you can do what you can.

 

[darnsmall]

this thread isnt about an answer,

I am just trying to give people some perspective on what happens beyond our borders, In the end its your choice where your donations go...or dont.

Sure you cant save the whole world, but you can do what you can.

almost forgot, we are a nation that support Israel, the occupation of Iraq for Oil, and is fighting the Taliban for the US...who did nothing to us. So we don't really have a moral leg to stand on in recent times; how do you expect us to care about starving kids in another country unless they're going to help us profit in the short term?

 

[beerwm]

almost forgot, we are a nation that support Israel, the occupation of Iraq for Oil, and is fighting the Taliban for the US...who did nothing to us. So we don't really have a moral leg to stand on in recent times; how do you expect us to care about starving kids in another country unless they're going to help us profit in the short term?

I dont understand your question.

its abit off topic anyway

 

[darnsmall]

I dont understand your question.

its abit off topic anyway

We are not a moral or just country. We like many other act for our own benefit and will act against others with lethal force for our own benefit...why would expect a country like that to give a damn about others?

 

[beerwm]

We are not a moral or just country. We like many other act for our own benefit and will act against others with lethal force for our own benefit...why would expect a country like that to give a damn about others?

errrr...

Every country in the UN donates a certain % on an annual basis. The government offer's tax deductions to charitable donations.
There is obviously a sense of giving by many political leaders without "expecting something in return."

If you want to breakdown what a country is.... a collection of people. You are basically saying.... people act for their own benefit.

Which is instantly false considering the amount we donate to appeals like the Victorian bushfires.

If you dont give a damn about your fellow human. If you think it is only right to give food/shelter/medical help to Australians and not those in the third world. I do feel sorry for you.

 

[darnsmall]

errrr...

Every country in the UN donates a certain % on an annual basis. The government offer's tax deductions to charitable donations.
There is obviously a sense of giving by many political leaders without "expecting something in return."

If you want to breakdown what a country is.... a collection of people. You are basically saying.... people act for their own benefit.

Which is instantly false considering the amount we donate to appeals like the Victorian bushfires.

If you dont give a damn about your fellow human. If you think it is only right to give food/shelter/medical help to Australians and not those in the third world. I do feel sorry for you.

well then you must feel really sorry, because the majority of us dont really care, including our politicians beyond the borders of our own country. Its hard enough to care about the people within them let alone some kid in some starving thirdworld or some family getting in the way of our oil and bombs in Iraq (nice of the yanks to do the most of the killing for us)

 

[darnsmall]

errrr...

Every country in the UN donates a certain % on an annual basis. The government offer's tax deductions to charitable donations.
There is obviously a sense of giving by many political leaders without "expecting something in return."

If you want to breakdown what a country is.... a collection of people. You are basically saying.... people act for their own benefit.

Which is instantly false considering the amount we donate to appeals like the Victorian bushfires.

If you dont give a damn about your fellow human. If you think it is only right to give food/shelter/medical help to Australians and not those in the third world. I do feel sorry for you.

The country and its leaders act for its benefit. We can have all the doo gooders we want, just as long as they have no position of power...leave them enough space to whinge and whine and complain while the leaders get on with making us money and setting us up for the future.

Any aid we give is not altruistic, don't confuse political manouvering for kindness

 

[disarray]

My point is that just because some nutter decides to rape a nation of their ability to look after themselves doesn't give the right for someone who was lucky enough to live in a stable country such as Aus to say "bad luck it's their fault for....... having so many kids, putting up with a dictator, fighting wars."

but it wasn't just a case of some random nutter coming in and being an evil dictator right off the bat. he won a lot of support in elections. he had tens of thousands of people marching in his support. he whipped up nationalist anti-white pro-veteran sentiment which many people latched onto and ran with. then when it all goes to hell people look around blankly and go "wtf just happened?" it's not like its anything new in history, he pretty much just followed the Dictatorship for Dummies template that has been employed for as long as we've been chucking rocks at each other and suddenly, wow what a surprise, the man in the street discovers that he just got screwed. didn't see that one coming but now its up to us work extra to bail them out right?

Come on. Looking after your own back yard is fine in theory except we take/pillage from many other backyards to get ours looking oh so right to erect our under cover bbq's.

what do we pillage from other backyards?

If you can sit in your yard and not see how you were lucky enough to be plopped there and all that came before it then you are lucky. Other like to look over the fence because they believe it all to be linked.

i know i am lucky. i saw beggars with leprosy rotting on the side of the road in damascus, i fed street children who were sleeping in a gutter when i was in jakarta, and while i want to kick those young and healthy looking beggars who clog up pitt street mall in sydney when i walk by, i buy food for the occasional aimless old man with torn shirt and no shoes who is ignored by society and left to rot in our own god damn city.

i've jumped over the fence on several occasions to see what life is like on the other side so you can shove your judgements. however unlike you i don't see the links on a superficial level of economics or resources, or some emotional idealistic "we are the world" rainbow fantasy, but a fundamental level of biology, race and culture as practiced by nothing more than a moderately evolved species of higher primate, who still acts like a monkey all too often.

 

[Trembling Hand]

what do we pillage from other backyards?

Do you remember slavery, colonialism, missionaries, support for dictators?

And I still don't see how ignoring people on the other side of the fence helps you. Their problem will one day be ours if/when it get bigger. Its a waste of time saying nothing can be done because they have the culture of a savage, (which is what you are saying?) Sooner or later it will be our problem but it will be bigger. Have a look at Italy and boat people from Africa.

 

[Julia]

There was support offered for Disarray's position by an African consultant economist on Radio National's "PM" programme this evening. When an African delivers such a judgment it probably holds some weight.

Transcript here:

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2492857.htm

 

[disarray]

Do you remember slavery, colonialism, missionaries, support for dictators?

these are interesting subjects. take slavery - the west have been the first society in history to enact a total emancipation of slaves and have set up all sorts of laws and edicts to outlaw it, yet for some reason we are still obsessed with carrying the guilt for what happened over 100 years ago. pretty much any discussion on slavery maintains a complete focus on the role of evil whitey, yet no mention is made of the roles of other races and cultures in the trade. whitey didn't go to africa and run around with butterfly nets catching blacks and shipping them over, slaves came from inter tribal warfare among blacks, and also from muslim conquest into africa (islam allows you to take slaves). these slaves were sold to arab traders who shipped them across africa, they were loaded into boats that were owned by jews, then put to work by whitey when they arrived. there was a whole supply chain of varying races and cultures who perpetuated and profited from the slave trade, yet all discourse regarding slavery revolves around the role of white people.

slavery still exists today in africa and the middle east. mecca actually has an active slave market! it's a closed city to outsiders so its not the sort of thing amnesty can get access to and complain about though.

colonialism is also an interesting topic but is well beyond the scope of this thread.

And I still don't see how ignoring people on the other side of the fence helps you. Their problem will one day be ours if/when it get bigger. Its a waste of time saying nothing can be done because they have the culture of a savage, (which is what you are saying?) Sooner or later it will be our problem but it will be bigger.

i'm not saying ignore them, i'm saying don't feed them or give them cash handouts. provide education and assistance in infrastructure development so they have the tools to sort the problem out themselves. if they prove unable to rise above ancient tribal rivalries and continue to genocide each other based on some primative clan based division then that's their business.

Have a look at Italy and boat people from Africa.

italy is taking a vey sharp swing to the right and is currently looking at rounding them up and sending them home. all this leftist pandering to minorities at the expense of the majority is setting things up for the rise of the extreme right which can only end in tears.