Victorian Fires

[sam76]

you hear stories of people trying to clean gutters as the fire approaches....

Clearly underprepared and complacent.

 

[MrBurns]

Article from Robert Gottliebsen, very interesting and probably true -

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/bushfires-$pd20090210-P4U79?OpenDocument&src=ea&ir=4

 

[MrBurns]

Here's a post from another forum, very descriptive.

The lucky ones if you can call them that, had about half an hour, to an hour.

For most, the fire was on them in the virtual blink of an eye. That's because the wind was moving at up to 100 miles an hour. People on the radio have been talking about how so many thought the fire was dozens of miles way...then the next minute, the sky turned black and angry red before the houses and trees around them exploded into flame.

The radiant heat from such firestorms is so intense (over 1000 C) that things explode up to several hundred meters ahead of the actual wall of fire. Its like an invisible shock-wave of heat.

At those sorts of air temperatures, things spontaneously explode and burst into flame.

That is one of the terrifying things about it.

Gum tree leaves give up all their eucalyptus oils, which are then vaporized in the air. This highly inflammable oil then adds to the fireball & radiant heat effect.

As such, the trees thus effected, literally explode as the fireball passes through the canopy overhead..

So do houses made of brick.

Cars melt in such heat.

And people ?

People caught out in the open, are either starved of oxygen, or are virtually cooked inside out.

Eye witnesses on the ground, were talking about walls of flame over 300 feet high racing towards them & overwhelming their defences.

That's why for so many, there was no escape.

126 now dead...and many more to come. So many of these little towns and villages are way off the beaten track in the so many deep valleys & mountains. So no one has been able to reach them by road.

The police and the army are picking their way through each little village and hamlet as they clear away the fallen trees & debris..

I am not ashamed to admit, I have been crying as I watched the scenes of total devastation.

 

[Prospector]

We had several deliberately lit fires yesterday in the Adelaide Hills!

Thankfully the weather is not bushfire weather, we have even had some drizzle, but these people need to be put in jail every fire season.

One shocking interview last night told of a woman whose next door neighbour was trapped inside. All she can now think about is the noises of him screaming. The survivors will need a lot of help.

I heard a Fire Ecologist from Uni of Melb this morning. He said that someone he knows had paid out thousands of dollars in fines in 'illegally' clearing out lots of trees and vegetation from the surrounds of his house. His house is now the only one left standing in his area. He commented he was now poor, but he still had his house.

And this has now been recognised internationally as the biggest bushfire for 150 years.

 

[MrBurns]

I agree with this too, KRudd linking bushfire relief to the stimulus package to get it through is an act of pure bastardry.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/11/2488110.htm?section=justin

 

[cuttlefish]

it would want to be deep otherwise....ever had a hungi or cooked damper?

With a hungi the rocks are placed on top of the fuel and heat up in the fire then fall through and the food is placed on top of/amongst the rocks. The earth then covers it up and seals in the heat creating an oven effect.

This is extremely different to being underground when a fire is passing overhead.

Heat and smoke radiate upwards. The earth below a fire does not heat up to very great depth.

An underground bunker or wombat hole indeed would be good places to go - ideally well sealed at the entrance like the steel cellar door example - and with adequate air supply to last the duration of the main firestorm passing over.

Constructing some sort of underground shelter like this in each small town would be relatively low cost, the maintenance requirement once constructed would be minimal, and would have the potential to save many lives imo.

 

[GumbyLearner]

With a hungi the rocks are placed on top of the fuel and heat up in the fire then fall through and the food is placed on top of/amongst the rocks. The earth then covers it up and seals in the heat creating an oven effect.

This is extremely different to being underground when a fire is passing overhead.

Heat and smoke radiate upwards. The earth below a fire does not heat up to very great depth.

An underground bunker or wombat hole indeed would be good places to go - ideally well sealed at the entrance like the steel cellar door example - and with adequate air supply to last the duration of the main firestorm passing over.

Constructing some sort of underground shelter like this in each small town would be relatively low cost, the maintenance requirement once constructed would be minimal, and would have the potential to save many lives imo.

Hungi, best outdoor food I have ever eaten! YUM

 

[cuttlefish]

These plans have saved countless lives before and are proven to work.

This is a ridiculous statement. There are 180 people dead. Clearly these plans have been 100% proven to NOT WORK.


In North Queensland when there is a cyclone off the coast, even if it is not an immediate threat, there are regular short television and radio broadcasts giving location, speed, direction and status - these broadcasts interrupt the running program, last for about a minute and are accompanied by a loud siren sound. They are extremely effective and if ever there is a cyclone about it would be extremely difficult not to know. I'm not sure of the exact intervals, but as a cyclone becomes a threat to an area they shorten - e.g. it might be once every couple of hours if the cyclone is a day or two away, down to every 30 minutes if the cyclone is presenting an immediate threat.

The loud siren sound accompanying the warning is a very effective psychological tool to instill genuine alarm and make the listener alert to possible threat - also everybody in the region knows that if they want to know where the cyclone is there will be an update on its exact position, speed and direction at regular intervals. This allows them to make their own decisions on whether it is safer to seek shelter at the location they are at or whether they realistically have time to attempt to move to a safer place.

Were these sorts of warnings in place in Victoria?

 

[inrodwetrust]

It seems some greenie councilors have some explaining ...

Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires

THE shire council covering some of the areas hit hardest by the bushfires was warned five years ago that its policy of encouraging people to grow trees near their homes to give the appearance of a forest would lead to disaster.

One of Australia's leading bushfire experts, Rod Incoll, warned Nillumbik Shire Council in a 2003 report that it risked devastation if it went ahead with changes to planning laws proposed by green groups that restricted the removal of vegetation.

.....

Mr Incoll and Mr Packham both produced reports for the group. "There was a planning process under the auspices of the state planning authority, and David (Packham) and I gave lengthy evidence," Mr Incoll said.

"They took no notice whatsoever of what we said."

Some areas had very strict controls about the removal of vegetation, "trees being the holy green icon", he said. "Removal of trees is quite an effort in many municipalities and Nillumbik is one of them."

Can they be charged with negligence?

 

[kincella]

I have decided that the underground bunker is a terrific idea....and even expanded to provide underground housing for the animals....horses, dogs, cattle etc....
or a group pool together, or get govt funding and provide a community bunker for the people and another one for animals...everybodies safe...
have advised a family member, living in a fire prone area to build one for himself and another for his horse....and maybe another for storage of treasures, documents etc
he has the bulldozer....what are those containers worth to buy ??
cheers

 

[kincella]

a survivor was scathing of the cfa video...it showed a grassfire running along the ground...he said he could handle that.....the reality was a 4 story monster of a fireball coming down from the sky.........
rubbish not to blame anyone..... those in power need to take and accept the blame....including the residents....
brumby said 500,000 people would have needed to be evacuated...where would they go....
I suggest a community protection area...underground..then make them evacuate to that area
the vic govt dithering about spending 10 million for an alert that phones everyone....
however if the power is gone..then the telephone does not work either...
and the mobile phones do not work or cut out....
so in hindsight they were probably right....but other areas that do have reliable phones could use it

 

[GumbyLearner]

Even better!

Why don't the Vics go over to SA and talk to locals in Coober Pedy about how to build stable structures underground?

They don't have a lot of vegetation there to worry about. I'm sure they can help with the underground aspect once it eventuates 20 years from now when the dams are empty..:1zhelp:

 

[cuttlefish]

I see there is another thread on underground shelters. Raised in there is a good point in relation to steel being a strong conductor of heat, so if any part of the container is exposed to heat it will radiate around the entire container, so an earth bunker would probably be better - though as long as the entire container was well underground it probably wouldn't matter.

Its nice to see some discussion on practical constructive solutions to preventing this level of life loss in the future.

 

[GumbyLearner]

I see there is another thread on underground shelters. Raised in there is a good point in relation to steel being a strong conductor of heat, so if any part of the container is exposed to heat it will radiate around the entire container, so an earth bunker would probably be better - though as long as the entire container was well underground it probably wouldn't matter.

Its nice to see some discussion on practical constructive solutions to preventing this level of life loss in the future.

So are you saying that it's a given or a fait accompli, that people will have to build underground bunkers beneath their properties in Victoria CF? And if so would you say because of the lack of precipitation within the old-growth forest areas of Victoria or because it's a naturally occuring event that people should prepare and protect themselves for?

http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/water/water_storages/water_storages.asp?bhcp=1

 

[Prospector]

The loud siren sound accompanying the warning is a very effective psychological tool to instill genuine alarm and make the listener alert to possible threat -

Were these sorts of warnings in place in Victoria?

They would needed to have evacuated most of country Victoria.

 

[spooly74]

I have decided that the underground bunker is a terrific idea....and even expanded to provide underground housing for the animals....horses, dogs, cattle etc....
or a group pool together, or get govt funding and provide a community bunker for the people and another one for animals...everybodies safe...
have advised a family member, living in a fire prone area to build one for himself and another for his horse....and maybe another for storage of treasures, documents etc
he has the bulldozer....what are those containers worth to buy ??
cheers

You can get a large 40ft HQ for around the 2-3 grand mark.

Our company buys them through freight forwarders to convert to potable water storage. Port SA or Port Melb would be your best option to avoid excessive transport costs.

 

[Prospector]

It seems some greenie councilors have some explaining ...Can they be charged with negligence?

Just to repeat myself

I heard a Fire Ecologist from Uni of Melb this morning. He said that someone he knows had paid out thousands of dollars in Council fines in 'illegally' clearing out lots of trees and vegetation from the surrounds of his house. His house is now the only one left standing in his area.

 

[Bushman]

I see there is another thread on underground shelters. Raised in there is a good point in relation to steel being a strong conductor of heat, so if any part of the container is exposed to heat it will radiate around the entire container, so an earth bunker would probably be better - though as long as the entire container was well underground it probably wouldn't matter.

Its nice to see some discussion on practical constructive solutions to preventing this level of life loss in the future.

They've had bunkers before (in the Dandenongs) and the problem was that people suffocated in them due to the vacuum that precedes the fire. If you can secure the air supply, then it would be an effective measure against the radiant heat.

As for the CFA, their manual has not caught up with a warmer, drier Victoria. I am not interested in this insidious 'climate change' debate; the reality is that Victoria is experiencing drier summers and a lack of rainfall and, in these conditions, the fuel load of the fire means that some fires will be 'unsurvivable' no matter what training local inhabitants have.

Councils need to start making long-term weather predictions and make sure that they do not approve 'tree change' developments in vulnerable positions in fire prone areas. Make no mistake about it - the Kinglake complex death toll is because those towns have had an influx of population of late and are on elevated postions right next door to a national park.

 

[GumbyLearner]

They've had bunkers before (in the Dandenongs) and the problem was that people suffocated in them due to the vacuum that precedes the fire. If you can secure the air supply, then it would be an effective measure against the radiant heat.

As for the CFA, their manual has not caught up with a warmer, drier Victoria. I am not interested in this insidious 'climate change' debate; the reality is that Victoria is experiencing drier summers and a lack of rainfall and, in these conditions, the fuel load of the fire means that some fires will be 'unsurvivable' no matter what training local inhabitants have.

Councils need to start making long-term weather predictions and make sure that they do not approve 'tree change' developments in vulnerable positions in fire prone areas. Make no mistake about it - the Kinglake complex death toll is because those towns have had an influx of population of late and are on elevated postions right next door to a national park.

To the point post Bushman.

 

[kincella]

spooly, for some reason I thought they may have been a couple of hundred dollars...see quotes of 2300 melb plus 850 to freight to wangaratta...
and there needs to be an engineer...regarding how much dirt on the top..etc how much weight could they carry...am thinking probably be a bit more to it, then just dig a hole and cover the container....
a couple of thousand sounds cheap to save lives
or maybe I should look at those underground houses...
maybe concrete support underground.....
and surely most people are not stupid to think they would leave one of those things in the sun....to cook all and sundry inside...but then again...who knows how stupid some people are