Victorian Fires

[ghotib]

On the subject of hazard reduction burning in Gippsland, this is from Robert Gottliebson in Business Spectator. Not that he has any particular knowledge of fire or bush management as far as I know, but at least he's closer to it than Good Ole Germs:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Conversations/National-emergencies-P437H?OpenDocument

This is the intro:

... a remarkable set of statements from Craig Ingram, Independent State Member for East Gippsland which were published in January 2007 in the East Gippsland News. Ingram details the issues he faced in getting fuel reduction issues addressed by both the Kennett and Bracks/Brumby governments. I have subtracted out the political sniping that went with the Ingram statements because what we have is an invaluable description of what was going wrong prior to the 2002-03 Gippsland fires...

Ghoti

 

[Prospector]

Hell Calliope, there is something wrong with me; I seem to be agreeing with you too much lately!

 

[Agentm]

Germaine Greer gets it right.


Germaine Greer, in The Times of London, sets the record straight on the role of global warming in bushfires:

FIRE is an essential element in the life cycle of Australian forests. Season by season sclerophyll or hard-leaved woodlands build up huge amounts of detritus, which must burn if there is to be new growth.

For 40 or maybe 60 millennia, Aboriginal peoples managed fire proactively, setting alight woodland, scrubland and grassland, so that they could pass freely, so that game was driven towards them, so that fresh green herbage was available. Aboriginal languages have dozens of words for fire. As the Endeavour sailed up the eastern coast, Captain Cook noted that the skies were darkened with smoke by day and lit up by fire at night.

Bushland that is not burned regularly turns into a powder keg, as the fuel load inexorably increases. The cause of these disasters is not global warming; still less is it arson. It is the failure to recognise that fire is an intrinsic feature of eucalypt bushland. It cannot be prevented but it can and should be managed. Unless there is a fundamental change of policy across all levels of government in Australia, there will be more and worse fires and more deaths.

garbage, just wrong on all levels here

germaine greer is so wrong on so much she is hardly credible..


Published scientific research such as the recent paper by Williams, Karoly and Tapper (2001), clearly sets out how global climate change is “likely to have a significant effect on biosphere-atmosphere interactions, including bushfire regimes…by increasing the number of days of very high and extreme fire danger.” Resorting to more burning in the face of such changes is simplistic and irresponsible.

frequent burning can make us more vulnerable to fire, not less, by promoting fire-prone species and conditions.

there are too many myths about burning off

suggest reading this study for instance..

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...lia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=au&client=firefox-a

 

[Prospector]

If burning off is such a bad idea (and I bet there are plenty of scientific articles that will argue it isn't) why do we keep doing it in South Australia. And please, enough about the mantra 'global climate change'. We just broke the heat spell set in 1908 - was there global warming back then?

And if bushfires are not a naturally occurring phenomena (they are only an issue now because people like to live in densely wooded areas) why are the seeds of some species only able to germinate after being burnt by fire.

 

[Calliope]

there are too many myths about burning off

suggest reading this study for instance

Well the WAFA would say that...wouldn't they? They are part of the problem and are in denial.

 

[tech/a]

I guess another thing is that you can warn people as much as you like.

If they don't want to go they don't have to go.

You can't make them leave.

and we all know how stupid people can be....

There is a simple solution

Below Ground Bunkers.
Infact a Wambat hole did the trick.

As for housing.
Double pump (Very big) Petrol driven (Below ground). Saturation (From stored water) capable of 60,000 litres /hr
Would save most homes.

Too expensive?
Make it part of housing approval.
Ask anyone who lost a loved one or home!

 

[sam76]

There is a simple solution

Below Ground Bunkers.
Infact a Wambat hole did the trick.

it would want to be deep otherwise....ever had a hungi or cooked damper?

 

[kincella]

wombat hole...or old gold digging holes...lady wildlife carer at yackandandah ne vic today...thought she was safe..but fire turning. back..she said she would take the animals into a wombat hole for safety....how big is a wombat hole ??? or maybe it was an unused gold mine...anyway it was a hole in the ground..

 

[kincella]

survivors stories coming out....fires were 50-60 klm or more away...apparently they were not aware or thought it was a little threat ????

then less than 5 mins to get out....lot of those areas are only one road in or out....so in the smoke, trees down, they had no hope.... one bloke had the 3 kids and dog in the car, ready to go...went back into the house..came out to find the car on fire..he survived, kids did not

others saw the flames, heard the massive roar of the fire, knew there was no hope of getting out
I have friends in Albury,,,,Beechworth fire and other areas around are less than an hours drive away....they are aware the fire could come close...last time of the big fires around beechworth...embers were blowing onto these houses in central albury....they could not see 6' in front of them...

so in a lot of cases...since looking at 300 dead now, they were waiting , too late, to get out....so no choice, stay or run....
or maybe they thought a fire an hour away was a long way off ???...who knows....
or maybe they had nowhere to run to anyway ????

 

[moXJO]

wombat hole...or old gold digging holes...lady wildlife carer at yackandandah ne vic today...thought she was safe..but fire turning. back..she said she would take the animals into a wombat hole for safety....how big is a wombat hole ??? or maybe it was an unused gold mine...anyway it was a hole in the ground..

Wombat holes get pretty big. You can crawl down them easily. Just watch out for the wombat.

 

[korrupt_1]

was looking at some of the houses in Kinglake via Google streetview....

some property were not bush fire ready... houses had overgrown trees right up to the door steps.

i mean no disrepect to those affected, but damn... some houses were just asking for trouble with that amount of growth around the property!

infact, driving through the adelaide hills the other weekened, i recall the exact thing... houses with trees growing right up to the side of the house.... i'm not sure if being 'bush fire ready' means cleaning the gutter of leaf litter and having hoses at the front and back is enough.... more needs to be done.

 

[Glen48]

If people want to live in these areas they have to spend their own money to fire proof their property.
The other problem is will they be able to get insurance???
A question which should be answered before building starts.
Wonder how long until the next round of fires?

 

[Agentm]

Well the WAFA would say that...wouldn't they? They are part of the problem and are in denial.

i dont agree at all, they have many times more bushfires than victoria and they have obviously had to, by necessity, gain more understandings of it,

WA has spent 66% of its disaster relief capital from 1967 -1999 on bushfires, vic 34%

 

[kincella]

mobile phones probably not working either....family in Wangaratta, edge of national park,..has the new phone since dec, supposed to work in the area...hilly...nope, think hes looking at satelite coverage, but will have to buy another phone...assume similar problems at king lake..
and had to cut off his landline...last fire last year...telstra stuffed up, he and neighbours calls get crossed..for over a year now...
and if electicity goes down...so does your landline..

 

[Agentm]

from what i got told the radio tower on top of a hill in the kinglake region has a ring of green around it and stands out in a lunar landscape, the police communications tower is kinda a twisted mess of metal near by..

i think the best was done at the time to make sure the cfa communications system was in place for the critical teams up there..

it seems elvis may have had a hand to play in that..

a lot of kinglake is out of mobile coverage in any case most of the time. the landlines went out with the power when the power poles burnt or the trees fell over them shortly after the firestorm.. i know my mother was calling my sister as th fireball was coming through kinglake and they were all outside dealing with the fire.. 10 minutes later nothing..

thats when you really get concerned about you family..

i know telstra has a free mobile recharging point at kinglake now for all residents so some regions mus t have some coverage.

 

[drsmith]

On the subject of hazard reduction burning in Gippsland, this is from Robert Gottliebson in Business Spectator. Not that he has any particular knowledge of fire or bush management as far as I know, but at least he's closer to it than Good Ole Germs:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Conversations/National-emergencies-P437H?OpenDocument

This is the intro:


Ghoti

While nowhere near on the scale of the Victorian fires, the 1961 fires in the southwest of WA which devastated a number of communities ushered in an era of controlled fuel reduction burning which goes on to this day.

In a post analysis of the Victorian fires the West Australian expereince will no doubt offer valuable insight into the benefits or otherwise of fuel reduction burning.

http://www.dec.wa.gov.au/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=2844&Itemid=99999999

 

[Calliope]

i dont agree at all, they have many times more bushfires than victoria and they have obviously had to, by necessity, gain more understandings of it,

WA has spent 66% of its disaster relief capital from 1967 -1999 on bushfires, vic 34%

Of course WA has more bushfires than Victoria. WA is a huge state and the vast majority of their fires occur in sparsely populated areas, where fires can't be controlled, as you map shows.

WA is the only state to have controlled burning on a rotational basis, and this minimises the risk in the more populated areas of the South West.

 

[>Apocalypto<]

I think the arsonists should be tied to poles and burnt alive. eye for an eye

 

[Julia]

I think the arsonists should be tied to poles and burnt alive. eye for an eye

Given that arson is usually a sole person, secretive crime I imagine it will be very hard to prove.

 

[darnsmall]

One question, last Friday, I was relaxing in Coogee at our pad by the beach when we heard a warning about extreme bushfire danger in VIC. Paid no attention except to wish all the best for my old town near Falls Creek.

What happened to the peeps in VIC, whats with the communication if I can get a warning in Coogee for bushfires in VIC?
Is it just our slow ability to react and or listen?
I can remember when Coogee got a warning last year for a Tsunami, it took me a good couple of hours to react; because it was such a nice day on the beach...it was a perfect sunny day with no peeps on the beach; mid week. Thinking to myself I'll just run up the road if the wave comes, and then thinking...I really hope I don't die because I'm one of those idiots that doesn't react to a warning for something as simple as spending a few hours on an empty sydney beach...god that would look stupid.

Did all these peeps just take a risk thinking they could walk away if **** went down, jump in the car and drive away? I saw some peeps on ABC news last night that didn't seem to be taking it too seriously...they were trying to prepare with 'buckets' and saying..."yeah if it gets within 10m will leave" perhaps there needs to be better bush education on fires