Handout Nation

[Garpal Gumnut]

Well, I'm glad you were helped out chops, otherwise we would all be worse off for it.

In the words of the immortal GG:

'You either do it right, or you are eliminated’.

It has some relevance to my point, so narrow as it is.

If you think there are no caveats to my position, fine.

Hey kennas mate when did I say this and in what context.

or was it the governor general

gg

 

[Julia]

You know I like to play devils advocate occasionally, as well as expressing my own opinion.

I just fail to make it clear who I am at times...

Major source of conflict post drunken conversations..

Apologies to anyone I have had the horns on with....

eeeek

No apology required. I wasn't trying to 'get at you'. I think most people are ambivalent on at least some of this topic.

 

[Julia]

[

All part of the survival insticts of the human animal.

If you give to others then you expect to receive in return, or develop some sort of self esteem from the act.

Altruism does not exist.

:couch

Kennas, because you personally are lacking in altruism doesn't mean it doesn't exist in others.

In my opinion the events of the past month or so have blown sky high all arguments that we can't afford to be funding health, education, welfare and so on.

If we can afford to blow massive amounts on the bankers' ponzi schemes which deliver nothing but pain to the masses then we could have afforded to spend the same creating a much better world.

I completely agree. And from the remarks of various commentators it seems the government will be prepared to go into deficit to continue along this path.
That will make the likelihood of any genuinely constructive spending even more remote.

Not True Kenna's, I used to think along the same lines, Everyone ultimately looks after Numero Uno, and thats True, but only in the extreme's, when its becomes a decision or at least perceived decision of You vs Them.

But I have actually seen a documentary about a study into what happens within the brain when you give to someone WITHOUT expecting anything in return. What they found was that the brain lights up in a way that produces pleasure, so we are hard wired to help people if we can. Thats the main point, IF we are in a position to help we will, if we aren't the need for survival takes over, and some people I suppose have different threshholds and are constantly viewing the world us Me Vs Everyone, which I suppose leads to greed?

So in a society in which people are allowed to save and "Get Ahead", live a comfortable life without being squeezed for everything you earn, and ultimately not have to work so much, then people will naturally help others.

You'll always have the greedy, but there are more givers than takers in most societies.

somethign like that anyway lol

Great post.

 

[deadset]

The handouts always go to families, and the single worker pays the bill.
I'm all for the Pensioners getting a $1000 bonus.

But I really start to wonder about this country and how it has been managed previously.

What has been the point of me trying to get ahead in this country, I would have been much better off leaving school at Year 10 and getting a trade, having a family and getting into all sorts of weird rebate paperwork on my weekends. I've definitely paid more tax than what I'm able to save, in fact I'm sure I've paid more tax than what I've actually spent in these last 8 years.

Why do they take more out than necessary from the WAGE tax ? That is totally unexplanable and unforgiveable. You end up paying close to 50%.

Now I know that I'm an intelligent high paid worker, whereas I wouldn't even consider buying a house as its been unaffordable. I'd like to start a family myself, unfortunately with all the tax I've paid during my working life, I don't have as much to show for all my hard work that I would have liked. Let's face it, to get a wife that wants to start a family, you need to have money and lots of it, this is an essential precondition, so much for unconditional love I know, but its obvious that a woman's love is highly conditional, this is a fact of life.

SO it feels like the govt really beats you down to keep you down, but if you have a family already, its alright, they'll look after you.

Why is Capital Gains tax 50% when business tax is 30% ? This really discouragges the individual doesn't it ? Is 50% tax ever acceptable for anything ?

Anything over 25% tax is obscene.

Surely university places have gone down for locals ?

 

[Wysiwyg]

I have observed and experienced people as takers in general.When a major crisis or catastrophe occurs then more will usually give of money but in general people are takers.

There is a very small percentage of givers who give of their time and love with no expectation of something in return.They complete their life cycle without fuss and are hardly seen or heard.

These people are givers of self and are few.Selfless giving.Do you know what that is?

...............................

From another angle --- there is absolutely no reason why anyone should help someone that they don`t know.The individual or group going through a negative (for want of another word) experience is completely something for them to go through.For instance, I did not give money to the tidal wave hitting land.A natural occurence!

Compassionate???? I`m sure there are many in the world that choose when to be compassionate based on ego (the community will love/accept me), beliefs, own experiences and whether or not there is a tax deduction from it.


So there are two types of givers :-

1) Governments and citizens of a society that want it back.Give with one hand take (more) with the other.

2) Selfless givers who complete their lifecycle quietly and give from their heart.

 

[Smurf1976]

SO it feels like the govt really beats you down to keep you down, but if you have a family already, its alright, they'll look after you.

It's Christian fundamentalism. Keep those babies coming...

 

[Nashezz]

Never having had to live on a pension I am not qualified to comment on the payment made to them.

But I do have strong objections to the doubling (and tripling) of the first home buyer's grant. This is just worsening one of the stupidities inherited from the previous government. It is feeding the Autralian obsession of home ownership early in life.

Anyone who cannot afford to save the deposit on a home will not be able to afford to service the mortgage. The bonus is just giving them a kickstart to a pie in the sky dream.

The money would be better spent in providing low rental accommodation.

Holy sheet Calliope - I agree with you

you've hit the nail on the head.

I've had a little to do with Vinnies and they can sure help the poor better than any government can.

and they are finding it tougher to get donations since government put their noses in it.

gg

We have had tax cuts for something like 3 or 4 successive budgets. Has that seen a similar increase in charitable donations? I would be surprised.

 

[Calliope]

The decision by the govt, as part of their "stabilising package", to guarantee bank deposits has now come back to bite them.

One of Australia's biggest mortgage trusts, the Challenger Howard trust has now frozen redemptions. They have had a flood of redemptions since the guarantee as investors have fled to the safety of the banks. Other mortgage trusts, once regarded as conservatve and safe are having to follow suit. Apparently Cash Management Trusts could also be affected.

This bank deposit guarantee was hastily cobbled together and ill thought out. Surely the Treasury would have warned Rudd and Swan that this could happen.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

The doll should be limited to 3 months.

 

[Julia]

The decision by the govt, as part of their "stabilising package", to guarantee bank deposits has now come back to bite them.

One of Australia's biggest mortgage trusts, the Challenger Howard trust has now frozen redemptions. They have had a flood of redemptions since the guarantee as investors have fled to the safety of the banks. Other mortgage trusts, once regarded as conservatve and safe are having to follow suit. Apparently Cash Management Trusts could also be affected.

This bank deposit guarantee was hastily cobbled together and ill thought out. Surely the Treasury would have warned Rudd and Swan that this could happen.

Calliope, maybe put this comment in the bank guarantee thread. I've just posted something similar.

The doll should be limited to 3 months.

Hello Snake

"doll"???
Why do you think it would be fair for the dole to be limited to 3 months?
As the economy falters, more people will lose their jobs. What are they supposed to do if they can't find another job in three months?

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Hello Snake

"doll"???
Why do you think it would be fair for the dole to be limited to 3 months?
As the economy falters, more people will lose their jobs. What are they supposed to do if they can't find another job in three months?

Hello Julia,

Thanks for your question. Please excuse my use of the vernacular, it should read dole.

I believe people should build their communities so as to provide support and assistance to each other. This can build contacts (which is the real way to find jobs) and networking community to community. Currently we fail as a society in this regard. Everyone is too greedy and self-centred. People need to change attitudes.

As there are many people living permanantly off the doll which is admired by people in other countries, I feel it is not good for the nation and society in general if people can have a permanent handout or strive to emigrate here to get that handout and then get a bad back.

Jobs can be found, people just have to look and not be too fussy until something better can be found. Other countries such as Japan only have a 3 month limit for the "doll", and others do not have any "doll".

Lazy = no jobs.
Proactive qualities = jobs to be found or created.

It is amazing what can happen with the right attitude.

The handout mentality is socialist in nature and only has a place in failed states like the former USSR.

I am all for support for those who are injured and or have a dissability. I have been there and know all about that.

Thanks.

 

[Nashezz]

Hello Julia,

Thanks for your question. Please excuse my use of the vernacular, it should read dole.

I believe people should build their communities so as to provide support and assistance to each other. This can build contacts (which is the real way to find jobs) and networking community to community. Currently we fail as a society in this regard. Everyone is too greedy and self-centred. People need to change attitudes.

As there are many people living permanantly off the doll which is admired by people in other countries, I feel it is not good for the nation and society in general if people can have a permanent handout or strive to emigrate here to get that handout and then get a bad back.

Jobs can be found, people just have to look and not be too fussy until something better can be found. Other countries such as Japan only have a 3 month limit for the "doll", and others do not have any "doll".

Lazy = no jobs.
Proactive qualities = jobs to be found or created.

It is amazing what can happen with the right attitude.

The handout mentality is socialist in nature and only has a place in failed states like the former USSR.

I am all for support for those who are injured and or have a dissability. I have been there and know all about that.

Thanks.

Umm not too many countries are set up to support a 0% unemployment rate. :chainsaw:

 

[Sean K]

Kennas, because you personally are lacking in altruism doesn't mean it doesn't exist in others.

Julia, it was a general comment on the human species, not a personal comment.

Maybe I'm on my own in that view of people and why they act, but I'm allowed to have that view, like anyone can claim they are altruistic.

Just because you think altruism exists doesn't mean it does.



Of course, I'm happy to openly discuss this which I find to be a really interesting topic. I'd really like someone to give me a good example that it does exist, it's a nice warm and fuzzy concept.

 

[chops_a_must]

Just because you think altruism exists doesn't mean it does.



Of course, I'm happy to openly discuss this which I find to be a really interesting topic. I'd really like someone to give me a good example that it does exist, it's a nice warm and fuzzy concept.

The fact we are able to discuss it intelligibly, means it already exists to some extent, does it not? qed.

 

[Julia]

Julia, it was a general comment on the human species, not a personal comment.

Yes, Kennas. I recognised that and I disagreed with you. Hence my comment which suggests that although you may never be motivated purely in the interest of helping someone else, it's equally possible that other people behave differently.

We've discussed this before. I've always acknowledged that any act of apparent altruism will likely be accompanied by a 'payoff' to the altruist (if there's such a word) of enhanced self esteem, a sense of making a difference, being worthwhile etc.

But anything I say will - as with you - be coloured by my own experience. Ditto everyone else.

 

[Spaghetti]

Paying rich people to have babies and buy houses is not logical. Many of them say "but we have paid our taxes". So there you have it, nanny state mentality. They should be saying why don't we just pay less tax, but instead there seems a preference to be told by the government what you should be spending your money on.

Paying pensioners a little extra is too hard but to hand over $22,000 to a rich kid to buy a house is ok? There is no logic.

 

[nunthewiser]

Hi any truth to the rumour that the rudd goverment gunna guarantee all labour voters stock holdings against losses next ?

 

[Sean K]

Hey kennas mate when did I say this and in what context.

or was it the governor general

gg

LOL. First name Gordon...

 

[johenmo]

How have the "handouts" changed over time - say as a % of GDP/gov budget or some other measure? Anyone know or able to show this? Be interesting to know if we are paying more in relative terms over the decades.

The handouts (until recently) seem to be growing in minority areas or specific groups, rather than addressing the "majority". I used to be on the board of a non-profit organisation and therefore had an interest in this area. There's more draw on food banks, church/charity organisations and such, and funds from both the gov and the public is dropping. Schools do more fund-raising.

We'd get better bang for our buck if some money went the way of some of the better organisations like Vinnies, rather than as direct cash payments. Some suppliers (still) bump up the price if goods and services if it's the government - was more popular 20 years ago.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

How have the "handouts" changed over time - say as a % of GDP/gov budget or some other measure? Anyone know or able to show this? Be interesting to know if we are paying more in relative terms over the decades.

The handouts (until recently) seem to be growing in minority areas or specific groups, rather than addressing the "majority". I used to be on the board of a non-profit organisation and therefore had an interest in this area. There's more draw on food banks, church/charity organisations and such, and funds from both the gov and the public is dropping. Schools do more fund-raising.

We'd get better bang for our buck if some money went the way of some of the better organisations like Vinnies, rather than as direct cash payments. Some suppliers (still) bump up the price if goods and services if it's the government - was more popular 20 years ago.

Some good comments. Building the community is better than just handing out cash.