Alcoholism

[Julia]

Are there any ASF members who can report any effective recoveries from alcoholism, either personal or from friends or family?

I have a cousin, aged in his 50's, who has been an alcoholic most of his life.
He has been treated for depression most of this time. Also has had periods of abuse of prescription drugs, mostly benzodiazepines.

He has been through countless attempts at rehab, mostly when he has so drunk himself into physical collapse that he has used the rehab (private clinic) to get himself physically well enough to start drinking again.

Unsurprisingly, his marriage has collapsed, and he has gone from being quite affluent to now being on a Disability Pension.

Talking to him about his addiction, he believes the alcoholism is purely genetic (I don't know why he believes this as there is no alcoholism in previous generations or with his siblings). He describes the treatment he has received as "useless", that the doctors/therapists are stupid and haven't a clue about how to deal with addiction.

He describes AA as also useless, says "I hate groups, and they all smoke so I'd get choked in their meetings". ( I think he has been to a couple of meetings.)

When I asked if he'd tried Antabuse, his response was "But that would make me sick if I drink". Well, yes, that's the damn idea! Clearly he's not going to do that.

So he simply seems to be accepting that he will always drink, despite protesting that he'd love not to.

Seems sad to see a life so wasted, and he's causing great distress to his family.

If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear.

Thanks.
Julia

 

[Judd]

Some history in my family. Uncles, Grandfathers.

The only "good" story I know of was my maternal grandfather. Enlisted in 1914, wounded at Gallipoli, discharged in 1916, re-enlisted in 1917, wounded in Western France 1918.

Mother told me stories of when she was a young slip of a girl, going round the pubs to get him home. Abusive, brike, the whole lot.

Gave up drinking on 3 September 1939 when WWII was declared as part of his 'war effort". Never drank again until the day he died in 1968.

Moral: Maybe there has to be a strong enough cause to stop.

Apart from a bottle of wine with my wife over Sunday dinner, there is no alcohol is this house nor do our children drink (or smoke). Bloody Puritans!

 

[awg]

my partner is a psychologist,

i have dealings with the clients

only when they are fully committed, can he succeed

yr description, sounds he is not.

if he can find a good therapist, that would help him to confront what he needs to do. (put in place a multi-faceted defence)

i know plenty of good people who are drinking themselves to severe health complications

look at that nob of a footy player who glassed his girlfriend, bet that would have involved excessive alcohol consumption.

drinking to excess regularly is so illogical ( i consider it to be a mental illness..but i also consider smoking the same way, cause you are self-harming and impoverishing yrself at the same time)

genetics IS hugely influential, but cannot be changed.
Behaviour can be modified.

If he is a proper alco, usually they have to wean, then stop altogether

regards tony

 

[Julia]

my partner is a psychologist,

i have dealings with the clients

only when they are fully committed, can he succeed

yr description, sounds he is not.

if he can find a good therapist, that would help him to confront what he needs to do. (put in place a multi-faceted defence)

i know plenty of good people who are drinking themselves to severe health complications

look at that nob of a footy player who glassed his girlfriend, bet that would have involved excessive alcohol consumption.

drinking to excess regularly is so illogical ( i consider it to be a mental illness..but i also consider smoking the same way, cause you are self-harming and impoverishing yrself at the same time)

genetics IS hugely influential, but cannot be changed.
Behaviour can be modified.

If he is a proper alco, usually they have to wean, then stop altogether

regards tony

Thanks, Tony. I have always understood that alcoholics are incapable of weaning. e.g. they are unable to limit their drinking.

 

[Family_Guy]

I was told i was an alco, i never believed it......was working 7 days a week in own business and thru 2005/6 and early 2007, i was drinking from as early as 6am (usually 8am) thru to 2am. And i'm talking 2-3 cases of pre-mixed drinks a day. It was a way to numb the pain and depression i was going thru as i was rebuilding and filling in the hole i dug myself into.

I had always been into fitness and health over my years, and ranged in weight from 80-82kg.

Then, Feb last year at the age of 35 and weighing in at 118kg, i had the first of a couple of heart failures. Several factors, several conditions, several months in hospital. MASSIVE wake up call.

The biggest single issue is denial.

 

[Aussiest]

Then, Feb last year at the age of 35 and weighing in at 118kg, i had the first of a couple of heart failures. Several factors, several conditions, several months in hospital. MASSIVE wake up call.

Wow, Family_Guy,

Well done on the wake up call! Life is indeed too short to waste.

I must say, i like the drink myself, but i try to stay away from it, as i know that once i start, i cannot stop!

A friend of mine recently died of an alcohol-related disease. He was initially diagnosed with hepatitus B around 10 years ago, at which time he proceeded to drink. He kept drinking all the way through detox, and then finally, last year, he was diagnosed and treated chemically, for testicular cancer. I was told a few weeks ago that he only had a few months to live, due to his body not being able to 'cope' any longer.

He spent a month or two in hospital, and then was moved to a pallitive care unit. He died last week aged 42.

Apparently he used to drink around (estimated by friend) 5 litres of wine per day. It really is sad.

The thing about alcoholics is that i think a lot of them give up. They fear they have liver disease and therefore decide to keep drinking.

I'm not really sure what to do, but i do know that it has to come from the person him or herself. I think liver disease would be a horrible way to go.

 

[Wysiwyg]

genetics IS hugely influential, but cannot be changed.
Behaviour can be modified.
regards tony

Epigenetics is a field where gene changes are observed.These changes are brought about by the organisms environment and experience.Just learned this recently myself.

 

[awg]

re weaning

when a person consumes large amounts of alcohol daily, their body is physically addicted, withdrawl symptons are severe

alcohol is deadly poisonous, i know several people that regularly drink amounts that would be fatal to a non-regular drinker

ie a carton (24 beers) or 1 bottle of spirits in a sitting.

i personally dont think going dry from day 1 is feasible for many cases

i agree that complete abstinence is often neccesay once detox is started.

when u look at various websites etc, to determine what constitutes an alcoholic, u will be amazed how low they set the bar. (lots of alcos?)

I personally think they are a little to harsh

i find the excessive drinking culture in Oz disturbing

i have had to firmly request that my under 14 yr old offsprings not be offered alcohol at family gatherings!

dont get me started on what happens when they are over 14!

(i do drink myself)

 

[Prospector]

Hi Julia

In what seems now a former life (too many years ago to remember) I worked at the Alcohol and Drug Addicts Treatment Board in South Australia. I even had an article published in the AMA about alcohol consumption and causative factors!

You will be pleased to know that the medical scientists disagree! So what else is new!

There is an 'addictive' personality that is well researched, and some say that it is genetic. But given that most children observe their alcoholic parents it is difficult to extract the effect of the two influences - nature versus nurture, unless a child of an alcoholic parent is adopted at birth and never sees the behaviours of the parent. But even then you could argue that if the adopted child didnt become alcoholic, it may simply be that they did not inherit the so-called 'addictive gene'. So then you need an identical twin study. Too hard!

The jury is also out on whether alcoholics can simply cut back to healthy levels, or must abstain completely. And of course, lots of studies proving that both are correct, and that both are incorrect. Perhaps it is the diagnosis of exactly what is an Alcoholic is most tested by the theory that alcoholics can practise 'safe' consumption. Is an alcoholic someone who is biologically dependent on alcohol, or one who drinks to excess only on social occasions, probably also the binge drinker? Some people are labelled alcoholic simply because they drink more often/heavier than the person who is making the diagnosis.

By Rudd's recent definition of a binge drinker, most people who drink alcohol at the weekend are binge drinkers, including me!

 

[Greg71]

You can't make someone get help. They have to want help.

However, maybe there is a way to make them want to get help.

Here's a resource, maybe it will help. You could buy a cd and play it when he's around. Maybe it will help him. Look in the subliminals section.

http://www.innerpeacemusic.com

Greg.

 

[Trader Paul]

Hi Julia,

As a volunteer drug and alcohol counsellor in WA, almost nothing shocks me
about the behaviour of the addicted any more ..... binge drinking in our
youth is not seen as a problem by our youth, until they have to appear
before a judge a few times, as a result of their drunken behaviour.

A Naltrexone implant may help your cousin to overcome his addiction,
but it is not cheap and it does not work for everybody.

Normally used for heroin addictions, Naltrexone blocks the receptors
in the brain and definitely prevents cravings for heroin and also for
alcohol (in some people).

Naltrexone implants are now available in Queensland, Victoria and WA.

Taking away the cravings is a significant step towards dealing with
any addiction, as it is easier for the client, to then focus on the
recovery program.

As others on this thread have said, your cousin must put his hand
up and say he is really serious about his recovery. However, in reality
some of them are "happy users" and a contented to keep drinking,
until the negatives build up to a crisis point. Only then, will they
even contemplate surrendering to common sense.

Triggers for change can come from a variety of quarters, like health
issues, legal proceedings, broken relationships, domestic violence,
mental health problems ... and the list goes on and on.

Some people have to "hit bottom" and go through the detox process
many times, before they become strong enough to face their
addiction (and their underlying issues, as well.)

-----

Switch hats .....

Also, as Street_Chaplains in Perth, we work with many other agencies,
helping people in crisis, on the weekends.

It will probably come as no shock to you, that 80% of police resources
are engaged in alcohol-related incidents.

Last Saturday, one of our teams was dealing with a girl whose drink
had been spiked in a nightclub ..... again, that highlighted another
danger of binge drinking, particularly for young women.

have a great weekend

paul



=====

 

[skint]

Hi Julia,

As a volunteer drug and alcohol counsellor in WA, almost nothing shocks me
about the behaviour of the addicted any more ..... binge drinking in our
youth is not seen as a problem by our youth, until they have to appear
before a judge a few times, as a result of their drunken behaviour.

A Naltrexone implant may help your cousin to overcome his addiction,
but it is not cheap and it does not work for everybody.

Normally used for heroin addictions, Naltrexone blocks the receptors
in the brain and definitely prevents cravings for heroin and also for
alcohol (in some people).

Naltrexone implants are now available in Queensland, Victoria and WA.

Taking away the cravings is a significant step towards dealing with
any addiction, as it is easier for the client, to then focus on the
recovery program.

As others on this thread have said, your cousin must put his hand
up and say he is really serious about his recovery. However, in reality
some of them are "happy users" and a contented to keep drinking,
until the negatives build up to a crisis point. Only then, will they
even contemplate surrendering to common sense.

Triggers for change can come from a variety of quarters, like health
issues, legal proceedings, broken relationships, domestic violence,
mental health problems ... and the list goes on and on.

Some people have to "hit bottom" and go through the detox process
many times, before they become strong enough to face their
addiction (and their underlying issues, as well.)

-----

Switch hats .....

Also, as Street_Chaplains in Perth, we work with many other agencies,
helping people in crisis, on the weekends.

It will probably come as no shock to you, that 80% of police resources
are engaged in alcohol-related incidents.

Last Saturday, one of our teams was dealing with a girl whose drink
had been spiked in a nightclub ..... again, that highlighted another
danger of binge drinking, particularly for young women.

have a great weekend

paul



=====

Hi Paul,

I agree that whilst an addicted individual could jump off the escalator at any point on the way down, most tend to hang around for the whole show to the bottom. In a sense, thank goodness for consequences, because the next stop is so often the psych hospital, jail or the mortuary. Mad, bad or dead.

As far naltrexone goes, studies to date have tended to find naltrexone, perhaps counterintuitively, to be more effective in alcohol than opiate addiction. Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist that blocks the effects of opiates. Whilst it can be used in cases of overdose, it is also used as an aid in treating addiction by antagonising the hedonic (whoop, feel good) effects of heroin, morphine etc.. That is, no point having a shot. It won't have any effect anyway. It doesn't, however, reduce cravings. Craving and reward, basically, are mediated by different neural substrates. Alcohol is also mediated by the brains endogenous opioid system within the mesolimbic dopamine pathway and that is the reason it has been effective in some cases. In both alcohol and opiate addiction, the big problem with naltrexone is compliance. All the addict/alcoholic has to do is stop taking the naltrexone for Rocket Man to return. It does however, help with impulse use in individuals who have a degree of resolve.
Interestingly, the rewarding properties of both opiates and alcohol are mediated by the brains endogenous cannibinoid system and there is some research that cannibinoid antagonists may also be helpful in this area. By memory, it is also being marketed as a 'quit smoking aid'. The obvious caveat is that results are inevitably exagerated by drug companies.
Skint

Hi Julia,
Got a bit caught up in the pharmacology there. Sorry to hear about your cousin. Not sure if I can offer anything helpful but will post shortly.
Skint

 

[Julia]

Many thanks to all for interesting and helpful responses. Really appreciated.

I didn't know about Naltrexone being used in alcoholics.

But as many of you have said, he has to want to make a change. I can't help feeling there's something in the way he is behaving that's working for him. After all, that's why we persist in any behaviour. It seems that he is almost embracing his alcoholism as 'his cross to bear', giving off as he does an air of martyrdom about it all. His father and siblings are relentlessly supportive of him, something I feel is counter-productive.

I'd hoped that his wife finally leaving would bring some difference to his attitude but on the contrary it's just cemented his egocentric misery.

Easiest thing would be to ignore what's happening and wait for him to destroy himself, but in the meantime, he could kill or injure an innocent person on the road.

 

[Trader Paul]

Hi Paul,

I agree that whilst an addicted individual could jump off the escalator at any point on the way down, most tend to hang around for the whole show to the bottom. In a sense, thank goodness for consequences, because the next stop is so often the psych hospital, jail or the mortuary. Mad, bad or dead.

"All the addict/alcoholic has to do is stop taking the naltrexone for Rocket Man to return. It does however, help with impulse use in individuals who have a degree of resolve."

Skint

Hi Skint,

..... that's the beauty of using the Naltrexone IMPLANT ... about 30
tablets inserted under the skin, so the users have no choice ... they
get a continued dose of Naltrexone, as the implants dissolve over
the next 6-9 months, which is long enough to get the clients involved
in some serious counselling and rehab programs .....

have a great day

paul



=====

 

[doogie_goes_off]

Sorry to get off the point, I just realised that normally when I have a drink it's because I want something to change. Usually an alcoholic does not know how to change the bigger things (their life/lifestyle). They just need help. Alot of guys I know call this family, often you just need someone who cares. I think it is the same with depression.

 

[Julia]

Sorry to get off the point, I just realised that normally when I have a drink it's because I want something to change. Usually an alcoholic does not know how to change the bigger things (their life/lifestyle). They just need help. Alot of guys I know call this family, often you just need someone who cares. I think it is the same with depression.

Doogie, it would be interesting to know how frequently depression and alcoholism co-exist.
Regarding getting help/someone who cares, there is a great deal of help in the community. I don't know how effective it is. And if the alcoholic simply isn't motivated to participate in the programmes or have the preparedness to adopt the AA comradeship type model, then it seems there's not much can be done.

This cousin of mine has had heaps of support over many, many years and it's been of no value in terms of altering his attitude.

The Naltrexone sounds useful.

 

[Sean K]

Doogie, it would be interesting to know how frequently depression and alcoholism co-exist.

Yep, I agree, and I'm sure there's some studies out there.

My guess would be that depression contributes to alcoholism significantly.

But it could be the other way around.....



Thus, they co-exist ....

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

If drinking is so bad for you why are there so many old drunks and so few old doctors.

gg

 

[gav]

My Dad's parents were alcoholics, he and his sisters were beaten too many times for them to remember. I only found this out 2yrs ago, from an Aunt that accidentally slipped it out. Like most when they are young, I would get drunk on weekends with my mates. However I got over it very quickly, by the time I was 21 I would only drink a couple of times per year. Alot of my mates still get drunk every weekend. My best mate from school drank a bit harder than most, getting drunk nearly every night. His parents were alchoholics but both were very successful in their jobs, so I guess he thought he could live like that too. Two years ago, he had a big night, fell asleep and never woke up. He abused his body with alcohol and a terrible diet, and he paid the ultimate consequence - dead at 22.

When I was 16, two of my footy team mates got drunk, stole a car, crashed it and killed themselves. One of my aunts was also killed by a drink driver. Yet at least once a month I'll know someone or hear of someone bragging about driving home over the limit and not being caught - it makes me sick.

Alcohol kills more people than any other drug, yet the government only 'appears' to do something about it, because they earn too much $$$ from the sales that they wont do anything that will actually help. I know that alot of people do drink responsabley, but I coudnt be happier if I woke up tomorrow to find out that alcohol was illegal. It ruins too many peoples lives to justify enjoyment from its 'social' and 'moderate' consumption.

 

[Smurf1976]

I know someone in their 20's who used to drink an average of about 12 standard drinks per day. So not extreme but well beyond what most would consider reasonable. And their rate of consumption was steadily increasing.

They made their own decision and stayed off it completely for a few months and have since gone back to occasional social drinking. I'd call that a recovery.

Only downside is a bit of denial. Based on what I know, I'd say they've done some health damage and would be wise to keep off it altogether. But at least they've cut back 95% which is better than most.