The Pilgrims

[ghotib]

Having said all that, I'd still rather have this particular group rallying in mid city, than to have the gay mardigras mob doing the same sort of thing. At least most of these young Catholics seem like decent enough people. As Julia has pointed out, they're a big improvement on the junkies and drunks and weirdos and violent scum who are all too common in today's society.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

Did you see the pictures of yesterdays big event. 400 old men swaying up a ramp in funny hats and long dresses all dripping with bling... all they needed was a few high kicks and some false eyelashes and it would have been mardi gras all over again.

How about a float for Pedophile Protectors, with Cardinal Pell waving from a throne.

 

[Sprinter79]

In any group you will find nice sincere people, and you will find evil, power at all cost people. Just because they claim to be religious, they shouldn't be exempt from proper processes, and shouldn't be protected just because they are Holier than thou...

 

[Sprinter79]

And the other thing that ****s me is why does the Catholic Church have exclusive rights over 'Youth'

A significant amount of the people I've seen on TV as part of the WYD coverage have looked very much past their youth by date....

 

[wayneL]

In any group you will find nice sincere people, and you will find evil, power at all cost people. Just because they claim to be religious, they shouldn't be exempt from proper processes, and shouldn't be protected just because they are Holier than thou...

Yes.

But I think some people dish them out an extra scoop of vitriol because of the clergy.

They cop more than some violent groups even. It doesn't seem balanced.

Mind you if they come the whole "holier than though" BS, dish it up to them I say. I just think most don't.

 

[Sprinter79]

Well, if you belong to a group where the leaders do their very best to hide, protect and promote criminals, while at the same time humiliating the victim and making their life a living hell because they "won't go away quietly", well, you're gonna cop a fair bit.

 

[ghotib]

You're probably right that most don't. Unfortunately it seems a disproportionate number of those who do are at the top of the organisational hierarchy.

 

[wayneL]

Well, if you belong to a group where the leaders do their very best to hide, protect and promote criminals, while at the same time humiliating the victim and making their life a living hell because they "won't go away quietly", well, you're gonna cop a fair bit.

Applies to a number of groups doesn't it?

Police
Politicians
Big business
Unions
Medicos
Legal profession
et al.

 

[Sprinter79]

Applies to a number of groups doesn't it?

Police
Politicians
Big business
Unions
Medicos
Legal profession
et al.

How many of those groups has been involved in child sexual abuse to the same level as the Catholic Church?

 

[wayneL]

How many of those groups has been involved in child sexual abuse to the same level as the Catholic Church?

I don't know.

I sincerely hope none.

 

[Sprinter79]

I don't know.

I sincerely hope none.

Well, I'm not sure if you can compare those other groups in this way.

How anyone can belong to an organisation, that, through its inability to act and level of inertia on the matter, tacitly supports the abuses that have been commited is beyond me.

 

[cuttlefish]

Perhaps people focus on the clergy too much when considering Catholicism.

The clergy cop a caning and bloody deservedly so. That George Pell probably has 666 tattooed somewhere out of sight.

But in my experience there are a lot of sincere, nice and gentle folk amongst the rank and file and whether we believe in their version of whatever, we should cut them some slack if they aren't hurting anyone.

...but continue to give the hierarchy a bloody hard time.

Wayne while I understand the point that you are trying to make, and I agree that the 'rank and file' as you describe them are generaly decent people, the fact is that leaders can only be leaders if they have followers. There are plenty of examples throughout history of 'good decent people' supporting tyrannical leaders that committed all sorts of atrocities.

It would appear that the leadership of the Catholic church has not grasped the significance of the crimes that their institution has perpetrated against children - and pithy throw away marks like the one made by the organiser of world youth day today dismissing it as whinging about old wounds should be condemmed by the 'rank and file' followers.

If the 'rank and file' followers knowingly and willingly support leaders that cover up or brush away serious crimes then they stand to be judged along side those leaders. They are also getting poor moral guidance from an instution who's primary purpose seems to be to provide moral guidance.

We know who the ultimate judge is in the catholic belief system and apparently he doesn't go too easy on those that don't acknowledge their wrongdoings.

 

[wayneL]

Well, I'm not sure if you can compare those other groups in this way.

How anyone can belong to an organisation, that, through its inability to act and level of inertia on the matter, tacitly supports the abuses that have been commited is beyond me.

Well I'm not here to defend the Catholic faith. I think it pretty much sucks.

But I don't think Catholics view themselves as belonging to an "organization", they don't see it as optional.

Is there support for criminal clergymen, tacit or otherwise, in the rank and file?

This is a question I don't have an answer too, but the few Catholics I know (One a victim of her own father) don't, and would be happy to be rid of Pell and his ilk. That's all I can say.

 

[Boggo]

Is there support for criminal clergymen, tacit or otherwise, in the rank and file?

This is the very problem wayne, the level of support, from intelligent followers, from astute business people, from the weak who are afraid to speak up etc etc.

All of the responses from the likes of Pell etc are the same worldwide, they are not directed at the families of the victims, the comments are directed at the followers and add to their brainwashed views to remove or erase any doubt that may exist, and in most cases are an attempt to cast doubt on the integrity of the victims.

The constant and number one initial response of Pell and his ilk are to discredit the victim, and their immediate families if they attempt pursue these criminals and don't go away quietly.

The "Ferns Report" that I mentioned in an earlier post is very diplomatic report that had to be published.

The detail and actual facts are beyond anything that Hollywood could ever invent.

Under what other circumstances could an individual continue committing the same crime for 30 years in the same community while the 'followers' knew about it and turned a blind eye (because speaking out against the church is speaking out against god !)

Mike

 

[cuttlefish]

But I don't think Catholics view themselves as belonging to an "organization", they don't see it as optional.

Then what do they belong to? If they just want to believe in God and study the bible then they don't need to be part of the Catholic church. The Catholic church is an institution, being Catholic is being part of that institution, I can't see how the two can be dissected.

Regardless of whether the members of the church consider it voluntary or not the simple fact is that it is a voluntary choice and in making the choice they are choosing to be part of the institution.

 

[wayneL]

This is the very problem wayne, the level of support, from intelligent followers, from astute business people, from the weak who are afraid to speak up etc etc.

All of the responses from the likes of Pell etc are the same worldwide, they are not directed at the families of the victims, the comments are directed at the followers and add to their brainwashed views to remove or erase any doubt that may exist, and in most cases are an attempt to cast doubt on the integrity of the victims.

The constant and number one initial response of Pell and his ilk are to discredit the victim, and their immediate families if they attempt pursue these criminals and don't go away quietly.

The "Ferns Report" that I mentioned in an earlier post is very diplomatic report that had to be published.

The detail and actual facts are beyond anything that Hollywood could ever invent.

Under what other circumstances could an individual continue committing the same crime for 30 years in the same community while the 'followers' knew about it and turned a blind eye (because speaking out against the church is speaking out against god !)

Mike

I hear what you're saying and likewise shudder with rage at the injustice and downright inhumanity of these people... not to mention the hypocrisy.

But here is my problem:

If I meet someone, find that they are kind, generous - virtuous in every way and decide that they make it to my circle of close and trusted friends. I then find out they are Catholic. What then? Should I now despise them because of their complicity by association?

I think not.

Why? Because then I must extrapolate that attitude out to my entire race (Anglo Saxon). By being an enthusiastic supporter of my own culture I become complicit in all of it's crimes, both past and current.

My race has practiced genocide, racism, apartheid, stolen land, stolen resources, destroyed cultures, and murdered innocents wholesale. Should I now despise myself and every white person of British extraction?

Of course not! Yet look how our leaders spin out justifications and excuses for all the above.

Glass house etc.

 

[2020hindsight]

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

Did you see the pictures of yesterdays big event. 400 old men swaying up a ramp in funny hats and long dresses all dripping with bling... all they needed was a few high kicks and some false eyelashes and it would have been mardi gras all over again.

How about a float for Pedophile Protectors, with Cardinal Pell waving from a throne.

lol - some ripper posts here
thanks I needed a smile to start the day ( after the last fortnight of the market )

PS I posted this on another thread ..

Cardinal Pell : quote of the century... (concerning Emma Foster)
(just heard him say it on ABC news)

"It is one of the worst things that can happen to a young girl ... to commit suicide"

http://news.theage.com.au/national/anger-over-bishops-insensitive-remark-20080716-3ft3.html

 

[2020hindsight]

PS but Pell has a clear conscience - heck - he offered to negotiate a deal with her out of court - UP TO max of $50K - for being raped as a primary school kid (6 year old?)

the man gives new meaning/emphasis to the word 'detestable'.

 

[cuttlefish]

I hear what you're saying and likewise shudder with rage at the injustice and downright inhumanity of these people... not to mention the hypocrisy.

But here is my problem:

If I meet someone, find that they are kind, generous - virtuous in every way and decide that they make it to my circle of close and trusted friends. I then find out they are Catholic. What then? Should I now despise them because of their complicity by association?

I think not.

Why? Because then I must extrapolate that attitude out to my entire race (Anglo Saxon). By being an enthusiastic supporter of my own culture I become complicit in all of it's crimes, both past and current.

My race has practiced genocide, racism, apartheid, stolen land, stolen resources, destroyed cultures, and murdered innocents wholesale. Should I now despise myself and every white person of British extraction?

Of course not! Yet look how our leaders spin out justifications and excuses for all the above.

Glass house etc.

The debate here as I understand it is about the actions of the present leadership of the institution of the Catholic church. The argument being presented is that the Church is not genuinely taking steps to acknowledge and seek forgiveness for the wrongdoings of the past, but instead still has leadership in place that supports covering up or brushing aside those wrong doings and thus is continuing to prolong the misery of the past victims of the church.

The point being made was that if someone is a member of an institution it is reasonable to interpret that they implicitly support the current leadership of that institution. They would have to take some active step to counter this implicit assumption. (e.g. something as simple as a comment that they are unhappy with the leadership or the way the leadership is handling things)

The extrapolation of these points is that people that are members of the institution of the Catholic church are members of that institution by choice, and if they are not in some way voicing or expressing their disagreement with the current actions of that institution then they are implicitly supporting those current actions, and it is this implicit support enables those actions to continue.

These are the only points being made. On the subject of deciding whether to include an individual that participates in the church in ones circle of friends, this depends entirely on the individual situation of how one views the church and its current behaviour, and how one views the individual member of the church and their way of participating, and how they reconcile that with their other emotional interactions, practical needs and moral convictions - this is a complex decision entirely dependent on the personality of the inviduals involved, and it is not the subject of this debate as far as I can tell.

 

[2020hindsight]

and Pell can stick to what he's good at for mine -
not sure what that is but ....

it sure aint the science of the spreading of HIV
or global warming / climate change

Here's an unfortunate joke he made about sacrificing vir... ahhh humans (- he doesn't use the word virgins) - either way, sad but true that it ends up being relevant

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234973&highlight=pell#post234973

Cardinal Pell says in the past, pagans sacrificed (animals and even) humans in vain attempts to placate the gods but today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions

 

[bunyip]

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

Did you see the pictures of yesterdays big event. 400 old men swaying up a ramp in funny hats and long dresses all dripping with bling... all they needed was a few high kicks and some false eyelashes and it would have been mardi gras all over again.

How about a float for Pedophile Protectors, with Cardinal Pell waving from a throne.

I'm not defending the Catholic church. Far from it......it's an organisation that I dislike intensely. I believe it deserves the criticism and condemnation it gets.
However, I stick with my view that the general behaviour and standards of the young people involved in the rally are a big improvement on the behaviour and standards of certain unsavoury elements within our society.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for some of their priests and leaders.