US planned nerve gas tests on Aussies

[moXJO]

Its bad enough we suck up their culture. But being the expendable ally is possibly worse or on par with Aussie media coverage of Paris Hilton and other US celebs, or Britney Spears songs.

IT'S been revealed that the US military planned to test deadly nerve gas on Australian soldiers in far north Queensland during the Cold War.

Newly declassified Defence and Prime Minister's office files show that the US was strongly pushing then prime minister Harold Holt's government in the 1960s to allow tests of two of the deadliest chemical weapons ever developed -- VX and GB, better known as Sarin nerve gas.

The revelation will air this morning on the Nine Network's Sunday program.

It says the top secret plan involved allowing 200 mainly Australian combat troops to be aerially bombed and sprayed with the chemical weapons.

It's understood the Iron Range rainforest near Lockhart River in far north Queensland was the likely location for the tests.

Peter Bailey, a former senior official with Mr Holt, tells the program the request caused consternation in Canberra, and as far as he knows the tests never went ahead.

But he says planning was very advanced in the US, which wanted the operation to be kept secret because the weapons were illegal under international law.

 

[tech/a]

Eventually they found others who did it for them.
Saddam obliged.
Typical hypocritical Yankee spin.
Do as I say not as I do.
The most dangerous species on the planet.

The alternatives if they werent here arent that attractive either.
So I just look after my own lot.

 

[Mofra]

Not too different to the British testing of the effects of mustard gas on Australian soldiers in the tropics during WW2, or the effects of radiation (again, on Australians) during the cold war.

Who gives two hoots about those "damned colonials" anyway

 

[Tysonboss1]

Its bad enough we suck up their culture. But being the expendable ally is possibly worse or on par with Aussie media coverage of Paris Hilton and other US celebs, or Britney Spears songs.

They may have saved the tax payer money, that way....lol

Australian Army sents a group of Australian soldiers to Canada every two years to get sprayed with chemical warfare agents.

In Alberta there are training facilities that allow soldiers to train in evronments where they release chemical warfare agents including mustard, sarin, soman, tabun and VX, often they also take pigs and goats in with them so that they get to witness what would be happening to them if they were not wearing there protective kit, they then also apply first aid to the animals to experiance what it is like to work on a patient suffering the affect of these chemicals.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Just a side note,

The correct term is "Nerve Agent" not "Nerve Gas", due to the fact that these chemicals exist as liquids and solids more so than in gaseous form, especially Vx which almost never exists as a gas.

 

[Stan 101]

There has been discussion about AU soldiers being exposed to agent orange in the uppper reaches of South Johnstone.

TysonBoss1, with the nerve agents mostly liquid or solid, what is the most effective way for solids to be spread over the target area?
I assumed it was a chemical reaction to turn the agent into a gas on deployment and wind was the carrier.

 

[2020hindsight]

another sidenote...
Nasho officers in the RAE in the Vietnam days – (Royal Australian Engineers being responsible for NBC nuclear biological chemical) - were sat down in a amphitheatre and given a demonstration of nerve gas – its symptoms, and antidote.

A soldier was lead in by two others, sniffs a bit of cotton wool (allegedly) dabbed with nerve gas by one of the others - who was wearing a gas mask – the commentator describes what then unfolds...

“ note how he starts to dribble, shake, now froths, now falls to his knees, to the ground, now convulses, etc”

pause

“ok we’ll show you the antidote", - they hit him in the leg, very dramatically, with a spring loaded hypodermic needle antidote – it leaves a small wet mark on his jungle-green trouser leg – at the thickest part of the thigh.

he comes round. two soldiers lead him away, once under each arm, almost dragging his feet. the assembled group left somewhat wide-eyed with concern. etc .

I mentioned this to a senior member of the Army recently, (no names no pack drill - he gave a lecture on Afghanistan) - he smiled and said, “yep , we used to pay that actor for that show - fooled everyone - he did quite well out of it over the years.”

Bludy good actor

 

[Superfly]

with the nerve agents mostly liquid or solid, what is the most effective way for solids to be spread over the target area?

Thats easy, just ask Saddam H...oh wait you can't because he has been stopped from ever again using such weapons or selling those capabilities to enemies of the west ( thats us ) by the action in Iraq.

 

[Stan 101]

Superfly, I'm sure Saddam isn't the only person who had his Chemical Agent handling ticket. As stringent as the testing is, surely someone else would have passed.
I'd also wager he himself never touched the stuff and there is only so much one can learn from theory, Superfly so I'd probably not have taken his word on such a potentially important question.


cheers,

 

[2020hindsight]

PS further to that conversation with those officers, the question of compensation to returning soldiers for Agent Orange and/or Gulf War Syndrome came up. I said that no way would I let either of my boys join the military whilst the govt were so mean-spirited and adversarial on such matters.

For instance I mentioned a friend of my uncle - big strong bloke, 6 feet plus.
his son - likewise, 6 foot plus - went to Vietnam.
his grandson - who was born after his son returned - seriously deformed thanks to Agent Orange

Nerve Gas injections (as I understand it) directly linked to Gulf War Syndrome etc.

No argument from either of them that there was a major problem getting the Govt to put their compensation money where their recruiting mouth is. . .

 

[Stan 101]

2020, why compensation for gulf war soldiers? In this day and age they are well informed of past issues as you mentioned in Vietnam and the like.
If they have the IQ to join the forces entry tests, they sure as hell should have the nouse to realise they are in for both mental and possibly physical issues down the track. If recruits don't have the IQ to comprehend that and contemplate the possible outcomes before joining the forces, they are not fit to fire a weapon.
That's like a sprts star claiming compensation from the governing body for a sporting injury incurred during play.

 

[Tysonboss1]

TysonBoss1, with the nerve agents mostly liquid or solid, what is the most effective way for solids to be spread over the target area?
I assumed it was a chemical reaction to turn the agent into a gas on deployment and wind was the carrier.

It really is only limited by your imaginenation, as to how you deploy it.

the method you use to deploy the agent will depend which agent you use and your aim and intenion.

The different agents ( sarin,soman,tabun and VX ) all have different properties, the main difference being the volitillity of the chemical, for example sarin is alot like water or metholated spirits in that if you pour it on the ground is will off gas (evaporate) rapidly filling a room with vapour killing anyone in the area who breaths in the vapour but VX is more like oil in that if you put it on the ground it will not off gas rapidly and kill people however it will stick around for months killing any body who contacts it,

the most common form of distributing war agents is by air burst bombs, being a bomb filled with liquid with a small amount of explosive that explodes about 200m in the air down wind of the target,

But as I said you can use anything to spread the agent from explosives, to crop dusting air craft to aerosol devices or compressed air, you can physically paint things like door knobs with vx if you are just going after one person, the americans even had VX land mines at one stage, which added to the area denial of a land mine feild.

The british actualy designed a verision of VX that was like a super adhesive, so once the vx was deployed it became like super glue it would stick to things and was almost impossible to remove, as with regular VX the danger of breathing it in was very small but should your bare skin contact it you would be dead in a minute

 

[2020hindsight]

2020, why compensation for gulf war soldiers? In this day and age they are well informed of past issues as you mentioned in Vietnam and the like.
If they have the IQ to join the forces entry tests, they sure as hell should have the nouse to realise they are in for both mental and possibly physical issues down the track. If recruits don't have the IQ to comprehend that and contemplate the possible outcomes before joining the forces, they are not fit to fire a weapon.
That's like a sprts star claiming compensation from the governing body for a sporting injury incurred during play.

Stan 101,

(PS I think you are saying - in code - that a young man would be mad to trust the word of the politicians and/or the military - and I agree entirely !!)

Gulf War Syndrome? probably due to pesticides and/or anthrax injections.

I'll be succinct ok? lol - not much explanation - DYOR etc. lol

Have you ever seen a needle parade?
soldier walks between two lines of medicos like some medieval criminal running the gauntlet - getting several injections in left and right arms - anything from yellow fever to anthrax -

and heck - turns out that one of them makes you sick - surprise surprise

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome

U.S. and UK, with the highest rates of excess illness, are distinguished from the other nations by higher rates of pesticide use, use of anthrax vaccine, and somewhat higher rates of exposures to oil fire smoke and reported chemical alerts. France, with possibly the lowest illness rates, had lower rates of pesticide use, and no use of anthrax vaccine.

 

[Superfly]

Superfly, I'm sure Saddam isn't the only person who had his Chemical Agent handling ticket.

But Saddam did use these WMD's against his own people. Oh did I say WMD, how is that possible ????... are these the same weapons that the UN WEAPON INSPECTOR'S were searching for in IRAQ for 12 years and were denied unrestricted access for those 12 years..say that again 12 years...in total breach of the UN.

As stringent as the testing is, surely someone else would have passed.

So... chain of command mean anything to you, you blame President Bush for Iraq but not Saddam for using chemical weapons...thats smart .!

I'd also wager he himself never touched the stuff

He would be dead if he did that...

President Bush has never fired a weapon in Iraq but you blame him for Iraq..

and there is only so much one can learn from theory, Superfly so I'd probably not have taken his word on such a potentially important question.

And President Bush could not take Saddam's "word for it" that Iraq no longer had any WMD.... Saddam had 12 years to come clean...

Just like the IAEA and the west can not and will NOT take Irans word for it that it is not developing WMD's....

Be careful Stan 101 you are saying that the US were correct in entering Iraq.... and I thought you where just another one of the anti-US sheep.

 

[Tysonboss1]

2020, why compensation for gulf war soldiers? In this day and age they are well informed of past issues as you mentioned in Vietnam and the like.
If they have the IQ to join the forces entry tests, they sure as hell should have the nouse to realise they are in for both mental and possibly physical issues down the track. If recruits don't have the IQ to comprehend that and contemplate the possible outcomes before joining the forces, they are not fit to fire a weapon.
That's like a sprts star claiming compensation from the governing body for a sporting injury incurred during play.

If the military break you, I fell you have a right to compenstion if the can't fix you, I mean every one else is covered by workers compensation.

especially if your boss is found negligent, If an office worker breaks her neck tripping over in the office and it is found that the office was not safe, then they are up for compensation.

Same should be said for soldiers, As any soldier that has been on over seas deployments would know you basicaly become a pin cusion with the amount of needles you get, I didn't know what half of mine were for. If it turns out the injection caused long term damage then some one has to compensate, either the government or the drug company.

 

[Stan 101]

Hehe, Superfly. purple monkey dishwasher.
I'll give you a hint. I was being facetious in regard to your post as you went off track on my question to Tysonboss.
Please re read my halarious post in that light and try again.

It's really been a day for it, hasn't it. First Kennas lost his mind, Redrob and 2020 was duking it out, and my jokes fall flat. (as usual)

 

[Stan 101]

especially if your boss is found negligent, If an office worker breaks her neck tripping over in the office and it is found that the office was not safe, then they are up for compensation.

Yep, good points Tyson. That was considered before posting and yes if that is the case, compensation should be sought. Also taken into account should be the track record of the employer. Have they been negligent in the past with similar scenarios and was the employee aware of these instances?
If the employee was aware of past indescretions, they must take some of the responsibility for the outcome. Ignorance is not a fair plea.
Questioning an employer such as the armed forces would be tough, one would imagine. Quite the conundrum for the soldier..


cheers,

 

[Tysonboss1]

Nasho officers in the RAE in the Vietnam days – (Royal Australian Engineers being responsible for NBC nuclear biological chemical) -:

It is soldiers from an RAE unit and also some times SAS Medical staff that are sent to canada for the CBR (chemical, biological and radiological) Training.

They have to go to canada to do it because they is no such training facilites here in australia.

 

[2020hindsight]

It's really been a day for it, hasn't it. First Kennas lost his mind, Redrob and 2020 was duking it out, and my jokes fall flat. (as usual)

:topic
Stan 101 , yep, lol
Kennas and his male/female plumbing connection lessons lol -
treats sex like its a case of north and south poles of a magnet - just can't walk past each in the street without the north pole heading north - maybe having it off behind a nearby park bench... "don't look now but I think I'm falling in love with you," lol

as for rederob and I - seriously, I have the utmost respect for the bloke - got a feeling he's ex-military as well - anyway, all of a sudden he chooses to throw down gloves all over the place - goes way beyond the codes of ASF conduct in his namecalling

I mean, I support him on his Zimbabwe thread
we support each other on the Saying Sorry thread
(Both of which have racial overtones - which believe it or not is behind the "best sentence on ASF" thread)
and on the Hicks thread, etc.

If you're reading this rederob, then I suggest we smoke a cyber peace pipe and "move on".

Stan 101, as for your jokes?
lol - keep it up. As my wife would say in these circumstances, "Practice makes perfect" lol.

 

[2020hindsight]

:topic
PS speaking of kennas and you (the two superdivers on ASF), - and kenna's recent threads - I recall seeing a female turtle baking upside down in the sun on a doco once. They rescued it and put it to sea - I think it was Richard Attenborough or someone - close to death etc

and the poor damned thing swam away - groggy and weak as hell - only to be raped several times within 20 yards of shore etc