US planned nerve gas tests on Aussies

[Superfly]

Hehe, Superfly. purple monkey dishwasher.
I'll give you a hint. I was being facetious in regard to your post as you went off track on my question to Tysonboss.
Please re read my halarious post in that light and try again.

It's really been a day for it, hasn't it. First Kennas lost his mind, Redrob and 2020 was duking it out, and my jokes fall flat. (as usual)

Claiming you typed up a joke doesn't get you of the hook ..... if anyone believes that was a joke then I can now see how Kevin Rudd got voted into government back in Australia.

You asked how to deliver such weapons in the field.

I replied by pointing you in the direction of someone who would have access to that knowledge.

In the reply you posted you have deemed the US correct for entering Iraq.



Nothing wrong with that San-Quar, because the US were correct to enter Iraq.

 

[Stan 101]

Claiming you typed up a joke doesn't get you of the hook ..... if anyone believes that was a joke then I can now see how Kevin Rudd got voted into government back in Australia.

Well, it sounds like someone doesn't want a free ticket when I make the second round of raw comedy 2009.

You asked how to deliver such weapons in the field.

I asked Tysonboss1. Now your name is Superfly. See the difference? Here's that part of my actual post so we can read it again together:
"TysonBoss1, with the nerve agents mostly liquid or solid, what is the most effective way for solids to be spread over the target area?
I assumed it was a chemical reaction to turn the agent into a gas on deployment and wind was the carrier."

See, silly buns, I was just curious from a purely scientific point of view how a solid is actually spread over a large area. Tyson seemed knowlegable on the subject. I wanted some info to go discuss it further on a science forum.

I replied by pointing you in the direction of someone who would have access to that knowledge.

Again, your name is Superfly. Lovely a name it is, it's not TysonBoss1. So me being me, decided to have a little laugh at your expense.
As you decided to throw in one Mr Hussien's name into the equation, I decided to play on that with the other real work I was also looking at at the time. I was looking at staffing levels and who had building blue cards, fork lift tickets and the like..... Look it's ruined the joke now, but lets say I tried to juxtapose.

In the reply you posted you have deemed the US correct for entering Iraq.

Could you please highlight and quote where I said that. I can't find it. What was on my mind was the sarin attacks on the Tokyo underground, actually.

Nothing wrong with that San-Quar, because the US were correct to enter Iraq.

Now, I don't know either way on that, but I do know it sounds like you need a big hug. I wish I could just put my arms around you for a big man hug, ya big softy!


.

 

[Tysonboss1]

What was on my mind was the sarin attacks on the Tokyo underground, actually.
.

The tokyo underground attacks were fortunatly pretty poorly done. It basically used a bladder of sarin thrown on the floor and then popped with an umbrella,...

The theory that was used was that the sarin would offgas in the enclosed space quickly enough to kill alot of people, fortunatly the sarin was not pure so it didn't offgas as fast as it normally would.

Had they used an aerosol or small explosive charge to make the agent airbourne quicker it would have been a much higher death toll.

 

[Stan 101]

Interesting and yes fortunate the Tokyo attacks were so crude. I'd always assumesd that in gas form there was just an nerve agent and a bonding agent compressed with air in an aerosol style delivery system.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Interesting and yes fortunate the Tokyo attacks were so crude. I'd always assumesd that in gas form there was just an nerve agent and a bonding agent compressed with air in an aerosol style delivery system.

sarin in particular will readily evaporate, into a vapour but yes an aerosol will obviously speed up the process.

The fact that sarin will disperse from a liquid into a vapour so readily means that it is the most deadly of the warfare agents at first, but also means it's affect on an area is pretty short lived, where as VX is more oily and won't offgas into a vapour so it's not as much of a risk as the airbourne agents however this is a trade off with it being much more persistant and affecting an area for possibly months,

The most affective weapons would use both sarin and VX, so the sarin would kill all in the area rapidly and then the VX would coat the area killing any who attempt to move though for the next few weeks, This is why the Americans designed the VX land mine, the blast would kill the soldier ho stepped on it then the chemical would kill his mates and then hang around and kill anyone who came to find the missing platoon or collect the dead bodies,.....

 

[2020hindsight]

sobering stuff.

and let's not forget that there were two terrorist attacks in the US in 2001 -
the WTC - and then the anthrax attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

The 2001 anthrax attacks in the United States, also known as Amerithrax from its FBI case name, occurred over the course of several weeks beginning on September 18, 2001. Letters containing anthrax spores were mailed to several news media offices and two Democratic U.S. Senators, killing five people and infecting 17 others. The crime remains unsolved.

remains unsolved (?)- I thought they tracked it down to an inside job - as in some nutter in the US FBI or some such (??)

Two more anthrax letters, bearing the same Trenton postmark, were dated October 9, three weeks after the first mailing. The letters were addressed to two Democratic Senators, Tom Daschle of South Dakota and Patrick Leahy of Vermont. At the time Daschle was the Senate Majority leader and Leahy was head of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Both were identified in the media as holding up the proposed Patriot Act because of concerns that some parts of it would violate civil liberties.

The Daschle letter was opened by an aide on October 15, and the government mail service was shut down. etc

More potent than the first anthrax letters, the material in the Senate letters was a highly refined dry powder consisting of about one gram of nearly pure spores. Earlier reports described the material in the Senate letters as "weaponized" or "weapons grade" anthrax. However, in September 2006, the Washington Post reported that the FBI no longer believes the anthrax was weaponized.

At least 22 people developed anthrax infections, with 11 of the especially life-threatening inhalation variety.. etc.

interesting they would target senators opposed to the Patriot Act

I thought they identified the type of anthrax as the same as held by the US govt / FBI whoever suggesting an inside job.. but I may well be wrong I guess. Then again, Wikipedia may well have been sanitised.

 

[2020hindsight]

interesting they would target senators opposed to the Patriot Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

The Daschle letter that killed two men, postal workers .. intended for a Senator most interested in toning down the anti-terrorist hysteria the only possible motives that come to mind are pretty ugly ...

Image of envelope in which the letter containing Anthrax was sent to Senator en:Tom Daschle during the en:2001 anthrax attacks.

The return address given in the top left says: "4th Grade, Greendale School, Franklin Park, New Jersey, 08852." There is no Greendale School at that address, though there is a Greenbrook School in the locality.

Tests conducted at en:USAMRIID confirmed the presence of fine, "energetic", powdered anthrax within this prestamped 34 cent transmittal envelope. Also present was a one page handwritten letter, clues from which enabled the en:FBI to create a profile of the sender.

The letter was postmarked at the Hamilton Township postal facility at 5:45 p.m. on en:October 9 en:2001. By October 11 it had reached the Brentwood postal facility in Washington which processes US Government mail. Two postal workers, Joseph Curseen Jr. and Thomas Morris Jr., died after contracting inhalational anthrax at the Brentwood facility.

The 14 000 square foot facility was decontaminated on enecember 14, en:2002 using en:chlorine dioxide gas. When it was reopened 26 months after the incident the facility was renamed the "Joseph Curseen Junior and Thomas Morris Junior Processing Distribution Center."

and closed down a postal facility for 26 months .....
"yes sir, I can assure you your cheque is in the mail "
But seriously - sobering stuff as well. especially when you consider the possibility that it was made to LOOK like a terrorist job.... but maybe was an inside job by ?? ..... some paranoid idiots.

 

[2020hindsight]

further clues to the fact that the "second terrorist attack" on mainland USA (namely the anthrax scare) was an inside job...

No-one found guilty in the end, but only so many places had powdered anthrax ready to send to politicians who incidentally happened to oppose new massive (some say draconian) anti-terrorist measures. :2towcents

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/02/2322142.htm?section=justin

US scientist in anthrax case in apparent suicide
Posted 3 hours 31 minutes ago
Updated 3 hours 12 minutes ago

A US Army scientist who apparently committed suicide this week was close to being charged in connection with a series of deadly anthrax attacks in 2001, federal law enforcement officials said.

They said Bruce Ivins, 62, who worked for the last 18 years at government biodefence research laboratories at Fort Detrick, Maryland, took an overdose of painkillers over the weekend and died on Tuesday in an apparent suicide.

A lawyer representing Ivins said the scientist had fully cooperated with the government's anthrax investigation for six years, that he was innocent and they would have established that at trial.

"We are saddened by his death and disappointed that we will not have the opportunity to defend his good name and reputation in a court of law," attorney Paul Kemp said in a statement.

"The relentless pressure of accusation and innuendo takes its toll in different ways on different people, as has already been seen in this investigation. In Dr Ivins's case, it led to his untimely death."

The finely powdered anthrax was sent through the mail to media organisations and politicians shortly after the September 11 attacks by Al Qaeda militants in 2001.

The anthrax mailings killed five people and sickened 17, shut down a Senate office building and spread fear of further biological attacks among Americans already reeling from September 11.

The only deadly biological attack to take place on US soil, it severely disrupted the national postal service, forcing billions of dollars in changes to its operations and turned ordinary envelopes into something to be feared.

The law enforcement officials said the death of Ivins could lead to the end of the FBI's long-running and much-criticised criminal investigation.

Earlier, suspicion centered on another government scientist, Steven Hatfill, but he was not charged and the government agreed in June to pay him $5.85 million to drop his lawsuit against the Justice Department. etc