And we are off - Aboriginal leaders say $1 billion 'not sorry enough'

[disarray]

c) how would any of you blokes / la...ow we should steal another bloody generation.

 

[justjohn]

20/20 my mother was made a ward of the state some 55years ago ,taken from her mother ,father(alcoholic) and 3 siblings never to be seen again .Had a chance to reunite with 1 brother through the Salvation Army but declined ,she had no choice as and 8year old ripped from her family but ajusted to life .Never grew up with a huge chip on her shoulder declaring she has been underprivlidged and the world owes her ,she just got off her fat arse (sorry mum)and worked 40years as a RN and still does to this day at the ripe old age of 63

 

[IFocus]

obviously no quick fix but it is currently mired in apologism, hand wringing, political correctness and other lefty socialist ideals which hamstring attempts to resolve the issue. if i were king of the world i would -

1. admit aborigines are different. maths, english and science isn't their thing, they are intellectually less developed than whites and asians in these areas which instantly puts them at a disadvantage in the education system. i think everyone agrees education is the most important avenue out for any people stuck in a rut.

2. testing indicates aborigines have amazing visual acuity, perception and visual based memory, so they need tailored education which takes advantage of these strengths and leads into more relevant career paths. land management, cultural studies of art, language and dance, native biology, sports and subjects that they feel are relevant to them should be taught as primary subjects.

3. remote communities go to hell because there is nothing to do, if the youth are engaged in learning their culture, the land and animals, playing sport etc. it re-establishes a link to the land which is central to their traditional lifestyle and offers an alternative to getting high on petrol and raping the nearest female.

4. maintain the intervention for as long as necessary to create stable communities where youth can learn these things without older people screwing everything up. get a generation or 2 through a stable, relevant education system and they can begin to maintain their own communities.

obviously its fraught with problems and issues, but at the crux of it all is finally putting to bed this ridiculous notion that all people are equal. we aren't all equal, we have different strengths and weaknesses, but as the dominant culture we are doing ourselves and others a great disservice by sticking absolutely everyone into the box that was tailored for us.

i should point out that tailored policy is for aborigines only so every minority group doesn't come along and start moaning about how they want special treatment. i feel we should go that extra mile to give the aborigines a hand up, but as for everyone else, accept the system (and change it within the reasonable boundaries) or piss off.

also sorry for coming on harsh trade_it, i do respect your opinion and your advice on some of the threads you have posted on, it has been much appreciated

disarray you raised some good points (with some edge) thanks for taking the time

 

[austek]

Moving the children to safer more financially independant homes seemed at the time a responsible quick fix, but ignores the 'nomadic" nature of the aboriginal race and the closeness of family. They will eventually be drawn back to their roots.

My thoughts are they need to determine among themselves what they want
a non financial non producing carefree life or a productive working life like the majority of Australians.

White Australians cannot or should not decide this for them.

The whole argument seems to revove around "What they want" how we can help them and more importantly how they can help themselves.

 

[nioka]

The whole argument seems to revove around "What they want" how we can help them and more importantly how they can help themselves.

The first thing they seem to want is a land cruiser then a tinnie and outboard motor, both of these use a considerable amount of fuel. Then a rifle for traditional hunting. Without thinking of grog of course.
If they expect these modern things then they must accept our culture of working for a living.

 

[austek]

I met a caravan park owner from mission beach in 1978, that told me Goff Whitlam gave the aborigines a tinny each up that way and after a few weeks his beachfront was littered with 15 abandoned tinnies, complete with life jackets and sparkling new outboard motors.....ran out of fuel

 

[Happy]

The first thing they seem to want is a land cruiser then a tinnie and outboard motor, both of these use a considerable amount of fuel. Then a rifle for traditional hunting. Without thinking of grog of course.
If they expect these modern things then they must accept our culture of working for a living.

Not to mention high quality medical care, high quality education facilities all in the outback, so they can continue their ancestor's culture.

??

 

[justjohn]

I met a caravan park owner from mission beach in 1978, that told me Goff Whitlam gave the aborigines a tinny each up that way and after a few weeks his beachfront was littered with 15 abandoned tinnies, complete with life jackets and sparkling new outboard motors.....ran out of fuel

Someone should have held there hand and explained the fuel was for the outboard motors and not for recreational use

 

[2020hindsight]

20/20 my mother was made a ward of the state some 55years ago ,taken from her mother ,father(alcoholic) and 3 siblings never to be seen again .Had a chance to reunite with 1 brother through the Salvation Army but declined ,she had no choice as and 8year old ripped from her family but ajusted to life .Never grew up with a huge chip on her shoulder declaring she has been underprivlidged and the world owes her, she just got off her fat arse (sorry mum)and worked 40years as a RN and still does to this day at the ripe old age of 63

OK jj - sorry to hear your mum had a hard time - but her circumstances are different to (most, certainly many of) the stolen generation, agreed?

Had she ended up in a state home/jail (like the one in Hay?) she might be entitled to have a serious chip on her shoulder. And some of the places the Abs ended up in were little better than Hay.

I listened to an hour or two of a radio broadcast featuring the past inmates of Hay (slightly off the topic except that it shows you how "angelic" the state run institutions were around the 60s and 70s). - and the church for that matter. Rape was commonplace etc.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1862767.htm

Former wards of state relive Hay experiences
Some of the Hay girls are taking legal action against the State Government over their treatment as wards of the state, but another Terry Welch, says she has moved on...........

"Although the policies and practices of the past may no longer exist, their impact can still live on. Thankfully social welfare practices have evolved. It's up to departments like ours to ensure that we continue to learn from the past," he said.

But one of the organisers, Wilma Robb says, it is not enough and some reparation is needed.

"I went and laid criminal charges, but I'm also suing against the Government as abuses of a state ward. I'm not saying they've got to pay, I don't care whether I get a payout, but it's going to show that they can't get away with what they've done to kids," she said.

One of the original Hay girls, Marlene Riley-Wilson, says the abuse of children in care is still going on and she and the other Hay girls want to see it stopped.

"While I'm alive I will keep speaking out, at events at wherever I go, about the mistreatment of children ... and brutality breeds violence," she said.

A plaque has been unveiled in the grounds of the Hay jail which says "May no girl walk this path again" and a rose has been planted to commemorate the reunion.

It has been named the Effie Rose, after Effie Ray, a former officer at the jail, who still lives in Hay and attended the reunion.

The Hay girls say Ms Ray was one of the few warders who treated them humanely.

Despite ongoing anger about their treatment, there was a theme of peace and forgiveness at the reunion.

If these ladies are entitled to compensation, then they should get it, agreed?.

Likewise if the Abs are entitled to compensation, they should get it yes?

To ACTIVELY argue against that (instead of letting justice and the recent election of a govt who wants to set the matter straight) is.... best comparison I can come up with would be a shareholder of JamesHardie voting against paying Bernie Banton any compensation.

Why not
a) let justice take its course,
b) be thankful you weren't born Ab, now or (worse) back then; and
c) don't be mean-spirited about it.

And btw, (since I notice you say "don't blame me I voted Liberal", had Libs got in , then within a few months Costello would have taken the reins, and as you probably know, he ALSO marched on the original 2000 "Sorry Day".

PS My guess is that half of you blokes would also object to any compensation for the Hay girls .

PS Reconcilitaion ... its a nice word. Sorry will help most if not all of those affected .

PS If you can't say "sorry" and mean it, then better not to say anything , eg your proposed alternative. .....
''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY :fu:

:bad:

 

[2020hindsight]

hey 2020. no one is belittling aborigines contribution to the war, nor their right to be full and equal citizens of our society, but applying modern attitutes to past policies is pointless.

re the stolen generation - AT THAT TIME the government thought aborigines were going to die out, they saw the dire conditions that aborigines lived in in many places so they did what they thought best AT THAT TIME and took a lot of kids and moved them to what they thought was a better place. i would do this to many aboriginal kids now, and the stolen generation happened literally a lifetime ago.

now if the evil whitefella came and snatched kids from loving homes with good conditions ............. then yeah, we should apologise. but they didn't, they honestly thought they were doing the right thing. if you want to attack something like this you have to look at the intent.

yet again you skirt my question disarray...

some of these kids were taken forcibly
agaist the wishes of them, their loving parents,
and indeed ended up in totally unsavoury circumstances.

EVEN if there was good intent - it wasn't followed through, and the OUTCOME was often unsatisfactory. (OR do you know better that the Abs that went through this experience and are now vocalising their stories.) ?

I have already mentioned evidence of the practice occurring whilst the fathers were on active duty .... any comment?

And let's say with a smidgeon of research, I could find stories of stolen generation kids that don't fit your fairy-tale-plot of " Cinderella found in the dust, whisked away to live with a royal family in time to marry the handsome prince"...

let's suppose I find ONE example when this didn't happen ...

and let's suppose that comes as news to you ( since you constantly ignore the possibility)

then I would feel totally entitled to call you blokes who
a) start a thread like this - with this title, and
b) happily plug your theme that IRRESPECTIVE of whether they are entitled to compensation, YOU, in your magnanimous white supreme style, don't consider that they should get anything.

.... an unsympathetic and backward section of the white community.


The society that I champion wants justice for ALL.

 

[macca]

I guess the biggest problem is that no one really knows what reconciliation actually entails.

Every group or even individual will want something different.

What is now called sit down money was and is more than enough to live a good life on if you spend it wisely.

They don't really have any of what we consider normal expenses, no rent, no travelling to work, if they wish to lead a traditional lifestyle they don't even need food out west, as it is still available to them in most places.

An example would be in Arnhem land, want meat, jump in the Toyota, barrel through the bush till you see a wallaby / roo jump out and shoot it, easy, fresh meat.

Yet, when we are shown their chosen place of abode, we are expected to feel sorry for them. They WANT and CHOOSE to live there like that, we are applying our standards to them (again).

We have to stop judging them by our standards and accept that some of them do not want to join our world.

 

[The Boss Hogg]

execute the powers in charge at the time... this will send a strong enough message!!

 

[2020hindsight]

execute the powers in charge at the time... this will send a strong enough message!!

sheesh the Pope better cancel his trip to Aus then

 

[Julia]

Leaving aside the question of compensation for a moment, I'd like to ask those who feel the Aborigines are in the dysfunctional state they are because of white people what remedy you feel would be appropriate?
Is the payment of multiple millions suddenly going to stop violence and sexual abuse?


Next question: it's clear that the sexual abuse of children is widespread in the communities. You are emphatically against the removal of children apparently, so are you in these circumstances condoning the leaving of these abused children (and those with the potential to be abused) with the offending communities rather than removing them (?stealing them) so they may be placed into white foster care?

These are my concerns. I don't care about the money one way or the other.
If it were to turn a dysfunctional people into human beings who genuinely wanted to uphold whatever valuable traditions may be left of their culture,
protect their women and children, and actually consider that making a contribution to our society in general might be more rewarding than living in the past, then I'm all for it.

Chops, thank you for responding to my above earlier post. Rational answer.

2020: could you consider a response to this please? You clearly think compensation should be paid: How do you think this will make the whole process of reconciliation better, i.e. how should it happen, who would actually get what money, how would it be determined, and how would we as taxpayers feel confident that it's not going to be spent on the aforementioned grog, 4 wheel drives, tinnies etc etc?
How would this monetary compensation ameliorate their plight in any direction?
Would there be conditions attached to how the funds were to be spent?

What would be your answer to "stealing" some of the current generation of children rather than leave then vulnerable to further sexual violence within their own communities?

As Disarray and others have said, the 'stolen generation' were not removed out of any sense of malevolence but in the genuine belief that their chances of a better life would be increased by so doing. Imo we are doing the current generation of abused children a dreadful disservice by leaving them in the hands of abusers.

Whilst I respect your point of view, you do tend to be big on the emotive stuff and very light on the practicalities and outcomes.

 

[coolcricket]

sheesh the Pope better cancel his trip to Aus then

That would be very nice indeed, can you believe they are using Randwick for his get together. The Racing industry has already suffered enough without a whole lot of horny christians walking all over the track.

Excuse my little rant.....carry on.

 

[Julia]

To start with they can stop calling me Whitefella. I know thats one of the more polite terms they use for non-Indigenous Australians, but treating others how you expect to be treated yourself is always a good starting point.

Agree absolutely. I hate this expression. I have never heard it said without a note of sarcasm.

 

[Freeballinginawetsuit]

freeballinginawetsuit

Agree absolutely. I hate this expression. I have never heard it said without a note of sarcasm.

I've got no qualms being called 'whitefella' by an aboriginal!. Also in full support of a workable solution that betters the health/welfare of the indigenous population (especially the kids)........ at the 'whitefella's' expense.

 

[coolcricket]

Hmm, why can't we call them Blackfella's??

 

[numbercruncher]

Hmm, why can't we call them Blackfella's??

Because that would make you a racist whitefella that just isnt sorry enough.

 

[ithatheekret]

Hey yeah ....... they all use to call me whitey , admittedly I couldn't remember half the names and referred to everyone as mate or mrs./mame and I took no offence , been called much worse than that

But , there's a point in this debate . One country , one law and all that .