Tasered for asking John Kerry questions

[2020hindsight]

James Borden was arrested in November 2003 and died shortly after the administration of the last of six electro-shocks, delivered while his hands were cuffed behind his back. The medical examiner released a statement listing cause of death as a heart attack, drug intoxication and electrical shock.
One of the officers involved reportedly said: etc

btw - on one of those youtubes on the U of F incident, - and as one of those US news reporters alludes to - he is almost cuffed when they taser him.

 

[2020hindsight]

Anyone considered this guy set it up?

kennas,
are you suggesting kennas that to come to a political forum with prepared questions , to be delivered in a prepared manner , ad libbed whatever- - is somehow
a) wrong?

or

b) (as seems to be the case here) an indictable offence?

 

[2020hindsight]

perhaps we should try to work out some rules under which tasers would be acceptable?

here's my proposals for first rule or two
#1) never taser a woman who is hiding in a cupboard and you've been told she's pregnant - even if she DID make some noise at a wedding party

#2) never taser an unarmed woman period - they MIGHT be pregnant, and sheesh, if a man can't handle an unarmed woman then ...

sick joke - but whether or not the mother was unarmed, you could assume that the baby was "disarmed" during the tasering.

 

[2020hindsight]

gives a new meaning to the phrase
"relased after being charged"

they forget to mention it was with 50K volts - 200 times more voltage than house single phase voltage.

How's this for the ultimate irony ..
youdo a green card OH&S course in Sydney - they take you to see the remembrance wall at CFMEU HQ - about 250 deaths in recent years - about half from electrocution - I mean those wriggley things can kill you

- then you see police happily giving people multiple shocks (rarely one if seems - frequently "several" ) when they are arguably (certainly ?) unnecessary.

 

[drmb]

20/20 - you feel very strongly about this whereas I do not. I believe the cops acted correctly, you do not. So be it.

You might see a connection between use of tasers and police states, and the US/Aus involvement in a war in Iraq. I do not. I think the use of tasers by police for control is OK, in certain situations (and I class the Florida one as OK), you don't.

I am not going to change your mind nor will you change mine.

If you feel strongly about this and as this is dmocracy with an election coming up please feel free to run and air your views publically. Remember though it is a democracy and the fundamental feature of democracies is government based on MAJORITY rule. If we the majority ban tasers, then I will stick by that. If we, the majority accept that all police should be issued with tasers and should use them in certain situations within defined rules, then I will stick by that. In the US, Tasers are part of the police officers issue, and the take home messsage is surely, if you are in the USA resisting arrest (no matter how wrong it may be) and the police say to you "Stop resisting", then you had better stop! or face the consequences.

 

[disarray]

Well I've explained my reasons as to why I believe the initial restraint was without cause, you haven't, you've just stated that you disagree. Thus far after several pages I still can't see any explanation as to why the initial restraint occurred - what law was broken that required him to be arrested in the first place?

i have stated repeatedly in this thread he was initially restrained because he was in a heightened state of agitation and was requested by the moderators of the forum to shut up. he wouldn't shut up and when approached by security he responded with violence and erratic behaviour. even at this point he still wasn't "under arrest", he was merely being forcefully ejected from the meeting - had he just stfu and left without resisting that would have been the end of it. i really can't make it much clearer than that for you.

 

[drmb]

they forget to mention it was with 50K volts - 200 times more voltage than house single phase voltage

If you studied electricity you would know it is not volts that kill, it is amps. Static electricity is 100,000s of volts, electric fences about 50000, etc.

 

[2020hindsight]

If you studied electricity you would know it is not volts that kill, it is amps. Static electricity is 100,000s of volts, electric fences about 50000, etc.

It is not volts that kill?
you don't get one without the other btw
sheesh now you're an expert on electricity are you dmrb lol

my reply?
and if you read these posts you'd see that tasers can kill - have killed and will continue to kill whilstever they are in the hands of trigger happy police.

 

[2020hindsight]

never mind drmb
we can agree to disagree
you don't mind the police here going the way of USA - I do
you think that bloke deserved to be tasered for asking two extra questions that used the word "Bush" - or if you prefer "for participating in a political forum the way he did" - I don't

Thought for the day man....
maybe people like me and some of those USA posters back there who were disgusted by the U or F incident will one day force change for the better.

and if that happens

we'll let people like you enjoy the benefits

PS that goes for your kids as well ( as well as mine)

 

[drmb]

It is not volts that kill?
you don't get one without the other btw sheesh now you're an expert on electricity are you dmrb lol

As a matter of fact, yes, and it extends as far as my medical regulatory background on design and review of self powered electronic circuits and testing, and implantable heart pacemakers and implantable defibs, as well as self powered devices such as cochlear implants.

Its Joules/sec that's important, not just voltage or amperage. Look it up on google!

"we'll let people like you enjoy the benefits PS that goes for your kids as well ( as well as mine)"

You are so sanctimonious! But you don't understand, do you? I am already enjoying the benefits of cops with tasers, I feel so much safer in the USA knowing that cops in the USA carry them, and are prepared to use them against people who resist arrest. I have no problems with that. I very much doubt you will change that situation in the USA, for which I am sure my kids and grandkids will thank us all!

I'll be back in the US in a few weeks, picking up a car at JFK then driving to New Jersey for meetings, then on to Raleigh NC. I'll be there more than 2 weeks again, I imagine that it wil be unchanged from 10 days ago when I was in PA, or 4 weeks ago when I was in SC. Free and safe! Take care and over and out!!

 

[chops_a_must]

I'll be back in the US in a few weeks, picking up a car at JFK then driving to New Jersey for meetings, then on to Raleigh NC. I'll be there more than 2 weeks again, I imagine that it wil be unchanged from 10 days ago when I was in PA, or 4 weeks ago when I was in SC. Free and safe! Take care and over and out!!

I somehow don't think that area has a high taser usage. Unless it is females using them to get away from the Duke LaCrosse team. Lol!

Lovely part of the world in that NC region. Would really love to visit there sometime soon, especially Chapel Hill.

 

[2020hindsight]

As a matter of fact, yes, and it extends as far as my medical regulatory background on design and review of self powered electronic circuits and testing, and implantable heart pacemakers and implantable defibs, as well as self powered devices such as cochlear implants.

Its Joules/sec that's important, not just voltage or amperage. Look it up on google!!!

gee you're the expert we've been looking for ...
just why is it that so many have died. ?

maybe you'll tell me I can look up "why tasers are 100% safe" on google as well?

as for the right to ask political questions in a forum - you aren't or weren't born an aussie I take it - whatever -
sure, you may not feel it as passionately as I do .

 

[2020hindsight]

I'm starting to suspect that some here maybe didn't understand this joke
(not my joke lol - laugh or not , up to you)

George Bush visits Bourke school whilst touring Western NSW..
"OK children" says the teacher - "aren't we lucky to have President Bush here with us today well, are there any little questions you'd like to ASK President Bush?"
pregnant pause, Smithy's hand shoots up.
"Yes Smithy?"
"Mr Bush" says young Smithy, "I've got 3 questions! -
1. why did you invade iraq,
2. what happened to the weapons of mass detruction, and
3. why did you treat the prisoners so bad ?" -

Dubya looks uneasy, but fortunately the bell rings for recess. "ok says the teacher - recess!"

Returning after 20 mins, the teacher again invites questions. "Yes Thommo?"
"Mr Bush" says young Thommo, "I've got 5 questions! -
1. why did you invade iraq,
2. what happened to the weapons of mass detruction, and
3. why did you treat the prisoners so bad - ........
4. why did the recess bell ring 5 minutes early, and
5. ........what's happened to Smithy??"

 

[wayneL]

I somehow don't think that area has a high taser usage. Unless it is females using them to get away from the Duke LaCrosse team. Lol!

Lovely part of the world in that NC region. Would really love to visit there sometime soon, especially Chapel Hill.

I have family who live there. (just a bit of trivia)

 

[chops_a_must]

I have family who live there. (just a bit of trivia)

In Chapel Hill? Or somewhere else in NC? Quite the young person's hub.

 

[wayneL]

In Chapel Hill? Or somewhere else in NC? Quite the young person's hub.

All around the Chapel Hill - Raleigh - Durham area/suburbs. I'll write about it later when I have some time.

 

[2020hindsight]

If you studied electricity you would know it is not volts that kill, it is amps. Static electricity is 100,000s of volts, electric fences about 50000, etc.

Its Joules/sec that's important, not just voltage or amperage. Look it up on google!

down under we call tasers “lightning bolts”
- try to scarpa through wattle – they’ll still you
its not the amps and its not the volts
it's the kilowatts what’ll kill you

I used to be amp-i dextrous
till I got this re-volt-ing charge
I said "hey - just boys being boisterous”
he said “hey – here’s a surge from the sarge”

does it have to be bullets that drill ya ?
or guns from which currents flow ?
you ask me what kills ya ? - watts kill ya !! (?) - (I think)
you ask me what’s dead ?? ? – THAT I know …

PS 1 joule / sec = 1 watt

 

[2020hindsight]

Here are some comments on a typical US youtube post.
I have not edited them or chosen some over others
but it shows how the rest of the world is thinking

Personally I think that Johnny Howard did a good thing in tightening up on gun laws. And with them the likes of tasers (you'd like to think).

See if these quotes sound like a healthy society in your opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkHi...round-check-comes-in-metallic-pink-227117.php

i like x26 taser it is better than c2 taser i draw it so quicky if someone tired swing a stick or a knife or beer bottle i carry it on my bolt if u drop ur c2 in pocket or bag .u cant find so quicky
Brent376 (1 month ago)

Yes my wife and I just bought one at Academy Sporting goods store. Had to buy it in the gun department and do a background check in order to activate the C2. I really like this model because it does not look like a gun. I can carry it in a parking lot without attracting attention to my self. I was very impressed with Taser International's training DVD and manuel. I carry my c2 everywhere. So small I just drop it in my pocket.
dogmusher (2 months ago)

i alredy have 2 X26 TASER here one in my truck other one on my belt i carry my taser on me all time.
sabrecs10 (7 months ago)

Pepper spray is an effective tool. It is hard to chase someone if you cant see or breathe. I have a S&W .38 Spech and my pepper spray for self defense. Pepper Spray has been proven to be 80-90% effective. While it does not stop everyone it is better than nothing and it can keep your gun from being taken away from you. Get one with OC with at least 1% Capsaicin content like Sabre Red. Dont get one with CS or CN Tear Gas.
unsobill (7 months ago)

pepper spray just stimulates attacker - get a Glock with pepper instead.
cjnewbs (8 months ago)

I wish stun gun/tasers were legal in the UK. Damn Firearms Act.
sabrecs10 (8 months ago)

afstings
I noticed on the Taser website that it has a back up drive stun capability so I ordered one for my wife and one for myself. I like this product because it is instantly effective. No waiting for the pepper spray to work.
afstings (8 months ago)

Actually, even if you miss with the Taser (x26 is the model I carry), you can still disengage the cartrige and use it as a stun gun. Much more effective than pepper spray, OC, tear gas, etc. Ive sprayed subjects that were on drugs with OC with no effect. Hit the same subject with the x26, and they're down.
sabrecs10 (8 months ago)

I think I will stick with my pepper spray. The Taser gives you only one shot and in this video one of the darts missed the outline of the target. I think it is ok for Law Enforcement who have back up officers. A civilan in a sudden blitz attack would have a hard time using this product

 

[2020hindsight]

and some comments from seattle area (where I have several friends)
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201700_taser30.html

Tuesday, November 30, 2004
Police are too quick to grab for Taser's power, say critics
Teens and pregnant women have felt jolt in King County
By PHUONG CAT LE AND HECTOR CASTRO
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

When deputies pulled her over, Valinda Otis told them she was pregnant and needed to use the bathroom. When they wouldn't let her go to a nearby restroom, she walked toward it, anyway, she said, and was quickly handcuffed and placed in a patrol car. She screamed and kicked the car door.
That's when a deputy with the King County Sheriff's Office pulled out a Taser, pressed it against her thigh and jolted her with 50,000 volts of electricity.
"It was a sharp pain," said Otis, 24, who was three months pregnant at the time of the September incident. "I kept asking, 'Is it gonna mess up my baby?' "

Tasers have been used locally to end violent standoffs and subdue suicidal people, but a Seattle Post-Intelligencer review found they're also being used routinely in far less threatening situations -- including against juveniles, pregnant women and people who have already been handcuffed.
King County sheriff's deputies have fired Tasers at a teenager who ran after not paying a $1.25 bus fare, a 71-year-old man who was arrested for drunken driving and refused to get into a patrol car, and a partially deaf man who couldn't hear deputies ordering him to stop, reports show.

Some civil rights advocates argue Tasers are being drawn too quickly and in cases in which such extreme force isn't necessary. They worry about potential abuses as more officers rely on the tool to subdue people who they say pose no serious threat to themselves or others.

"We have a problem with the rush to tase and ask questions later," said Sheley Secrest, with the NAACP's Seattle chapter, who has fielded several complaints, including one from Otis. The NAACP wants stricter policies.
Amnesty International released a report today saying police nationwide are abusing the stun guns, and more than 70 deaths in Taser incidents raise questions about whether the devices are safe -- though the company that builds them insists they are.

From January 2003 to June 2004, Seattle police used Tasers in 269 incidents, while King County sheriff's deputies used them in 267 incidents, including 15 cases in which they were displayed as warnings, according to a P-I review of hundreds of use-of-force reports.

Tasers have defused many potentially deadly situations. The painful jolts stopped a man from leaping off Seattle's Aurora Bridge, subdued a man who grabbed an officer's gun and turned it on him, and stopped several knife-wielding people who might have been shot dead, records show.
But King County deputies have shocked at least 10 people who were handcuffed, while Seattle police used the devices on at least three handcuffed people. Such use is discouraged in Phoenix; Las Vegas; Austin, Texas; and other cities.

Nearly a third of those hit were jolted two or more times. King County and Seattle officials say they plan to review multiple shockings.
About three out of four of those shocked by Seattle police were unarmed. Five of six zapped by King County deputies didn't have weapons, though records didn't always note this.

Officials with the King County Sheriff's Office and the Seattle Police Department say Tasers are generally used the way they should be: to control suspects who are aggressive, fight back, actively resist or run away.
But the King County Sheriff's Office has recently tightened its policy after finding some uses "just weren't appropriate" even though they fell within department guidelines, said Chief Sue Rahr, who has been named to replace Sheriff Dave Reichert. The agency also will begin keeping a database of and requiring reports for all Taser incidents.

Rahr declined to comment about specific cases but said deputies are fighting public misperceptions about Tasers.

Pregnant women, the elderly, juveniles and those who are already handcuffed can be violent and threatening, she said. Still, deputies are trained to exhaust all their options "in a case like that because it just doesn't look pretty," she said. etc etc

 

[2020hindsight]

explod - can I ask you a question please
as an excop -
how often have you seen totally - I mean TOTALLY - trumped up charges that someone resisted arrest ?

I'm talking about the "ole trifecta" - "assault of an officer, language and resist "

PS 90% of the time BS - IMO - I await your opinion / confirmation / denial