Federal Police

[2020hindsight]

Is it just me, or is anyone seriously concerned with the erosion of the separation of power principle... the political, the administrative and the judiciary.

Rafa. your point on political interference is a beauty.
One day maybe Keelty will publish?
"Keelty Tells All ..... Read All About it "!!

changing the subject, but here's a poem I thought of as I was having a shave ..
maybe triggered by the sight of blood lol.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=185038&highlight=mosquitos#post185038

 

[BradK]

I am absolutely filthy on this Howard Government. The list just keeps on growing of disgraceful, racist, irresponsible, lying, f@!)CKing spin.

BRING ON THE ELECTION.

Here is one for you! Howard's refrain 'The people among us who want to do us harm' DONT EXIST!!!! Not before 2001. And IF they do exist, they dont exist because 'they hate freedom'. They exist BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF THE HOWARD GOVERNMENT.

It has taken me a while to come to this one. So, let me repeat it again. TERRORISTS EXIST BECAUSE OF THE POLICIES OF HOWARD AND BUSH.

I also used to think Keelty was decent. He is not. He is a government puppet and he should hang his head in shame.

From what I can work out, Dr. Haneef was stitched up for something his cousin did. AND THEY REVIEWED HIS VISA.

Look at what Howard's brother Stan did. SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN. And Howard's litany of lies. When will we wake up and call a spade a spade.

Howard - Liar, Cheat.

Not in our name
Brad

 

[2020hindsight]

Dignity all important ....yep critical, - likewise the gravity of the potential insult......
As for the typical aussie response (changing subject, off topic etc) - I recall once telling a bar manager that his establishment was one of the lousiest I'd ever been kicked out of

Perhaps I should explain what I was getting at -
Other ideas for an Aussie Tourism Campaign

PS is there any truth in the rumour that Abbott farewelled him at the airport , adding "we'd love to say sorry but , well , "**** happens!"

Here's another equally irrelevant ......
Aust attorney general on spies The chaser

 

[Spaghetti]

Needs to be an inquiry.

Government says it has nothing to do with it. hmmm.

Their laws.

If the police were acting within the law then the laws need adjusting.

If the police were acting outside the law then appropiate action needs to be taken.

I would like to understand why Howard said he was comfortable with the detention when much of this country was not. Out of tune with the population. Seems to underline his lack of compassion and humanity.

I would like to understand Ruddock's extraordinary attack on the legal profession becoming activist. If the case had been allowed to run it's course without legal and media outrage then how long would have this man been held? How many others? He seems to be an extremist. I would prefer Turnbull in this role.

Immigration minister suggesting Haneef must be guilty of something, why else would he leave the country so quickly? What planet is he on?

I am concerned that Howard now stands and says he has no responsibility. Not surprised, have never known him to be one that can accept responsiblity for anything negative.

Does lead me to a question about separation of powers. How can a government sit back and deny any responsibility when an obvious loss of civil liberty ocurs under their watch?

It is an important issue, difficult to fight terrorism when we act like the bad guys and not the good guys. Just picture our police wearing masks surrounding the crouching figure of Haneef.

 

[BradK]

If Howard had ONE shred of decency he would sack Kevin Andrews. Im not holding my breath.

Andrews says that Haneef's leaving the country 'heightens rather than lessens my suspicions'

He has just had a baby! He has been banged up for a month! In a country that has trampled over his human rights.

Welcome to John Howard's Australia. Its getting scarier by the day.

Brad

 

[acooper]

When in doubt send Home. We dont need Terrorists here in Australia. Its too late when people finally get killed and strange that 2 Cousins were involved.
acooper

 

[Spaghetti]

acooper

No we do not need terrorists in Australia. So why invite them?

Inciting hatred of our country will not lead to less terrorism afterall.

 

[2020hindsight]

Get the Feds before they get ...agggh

Sadomasochism is never having to say you're sorry.

 

[Prospector]

My mother tells me that during WWII, people of Germanic extraction, who had even been born in Australia (South Australia was settled by Germanic FREE settlers) were rounded up and put into compounds, just because they had now 'become the enemy'. Even Hans Heysen, a celebrated artist.

So this probably isnt a new reaction, just directed at a diffrent group of people.

I think the AFP were right in immediately arresting Haneef.

But as their 'evidence' began to unravel they have treated him appallingly.
Keelty has always had the smug look of being 'the authority and protector of our freedom' - well, that is now a lot of bunkum. And we wonder why our youth doesnt trust authority? Hell, I dont and I used to be one of them!

Seeing Haneef last night I said to teenage son he was either a damn fine actor, or a peaceful soul. I am going for the latter.

And as for our immigation minister, well, I thought Rudd was (well, I wont say what I thought of him) but this man is far, far worse.

And heaven help us if we all get persecuted when our relatives, second cousins no less, do something wrong!

 

[Rafa]

i think you mean ruddock....

i just hope haneef remains a peacefull soul...
if that was me, far out... i would not be happy chappy...

imagine labelling john howard a worker entitlement stealer, simply because his brother did it...

oh...

wait a minute...
maybe some traits do run in the family

 

[Duckman#72]

And if it were you or a loved one what was being held indefinately without charge and without contact with the outside world?

Sure I'd hate it. But what if they were guilty.

Maybe I have more faith in the system than others to get the right result.

And I didn't say indefinately...I said six months. No one is being held indefinately....not even in the Dr's case.

One of my dislikes is for cases to be tried out in the media rather than through legal system. By both sides. As soon as someone is taken into questioning regarding an extreme charge the media demands to know all the evidence immediately. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think terrorists have manilla files at home marked "My Involvement in the London Bombings" and "Future Terrorist Activities for the Gold Coast".

Sure there were aspects of this case that stink but the outrageous cries of political manipulation smack simply of political self interest. If you support Labor - that's fine but don't do what you are accusing others of doing - just turning every national event into political pointscoring.

 

[BradK]

One of my dislikes is for cases to be tried out in the media rather than through legal system. By both sides. As soon as someone is taken into questioning regarding an extreme charge the media demands to know all the evidence immediately.

Duckman,

When the Government can NO LONGER be trusted with OUR civil rights and human rights (see Amnesty International Annual reports 2007) then it is fair cop for the press to step in.

This government is now out of control.

IF Mr Russo had not released the police interview to the media, than Dr Haneef would still be banged up. Media is our bastion of democracy when the government is becoming increasingly fascist in this emerging police state. Russo just knows what many of us expected all along. This government has NO RESPECT for the rule of law and will spin any situation.

In the past few months we have had Aboriginal children overboard and Dr. Haneef. I dont have ANY faith in our legal or political system, but the media and the people of Australia are showing true democratic values by standing up against the Howard Regime.

My study of history tells me it is time to be scared. Howard, Costello, Ruddock, Andrews, and Keelty are BAD NEWS.



Brad

 

[bingk6]

If Howard had ONE shred of decency he would sack Kevin Andrews. Im not holding my breath.

Brad,

Agree totally with you regarding the disgraceful Howard government. However, this statement above puzzles me a little. In my view, Andrew's actions were the result of instructions from Howard. I find it very difficult to believe that Andrews initated actions to revoke the visa on his own accord, especially on the issue of national security - which is Howards pet topic as we approach an election.

If Andrew's action had resulted in a conviction, Howard will be first in line to claim credit. If Andrew's action did NOT result in a conviction, then yes, Andrews had better watch his back as Howard might then sack him for incompetence. Therefore if Andrews get the sack, it is not because Howard has a shread of decency, as he has none. Andrews could get the sack precisely because Howard has no decency whatsoever....

 

[BradK]

As I say Bing... welcome to John Howard's Australia.

I went through Europe last year, and we have a reputation over there EVERY BIT AS BAD as South Africa during the Aparthied era.

Australia is the BEST PLACE on earth to live - and that is coming from someone who is very well travelled. But our current regime should be ashamed of themselves.

But they are so audacious they wouldn't know the word shame....

 

[2020hindsight]

Gotta feeling the system needs some time for some "flexibility".
i.e. Duckman's guess of 6 months between taking into custody and charging would be too long IMO ...
but (assuming I heard right) - Civil Libetarians are claiming that 3 days would be their choice - sounds a bit short.

(say a computer has to be taken apart - hard disk checked for erased files etcetc ).

I'd guess at the (old?) UK model which (I think) has 28 days apparently (before recent talk of doubling it?) -
Just some notes...

1. we are talking about the duration prior to charging ...
2. after which a person can be held (till trial) with or without bail etc (Hicks had to wait 5 years to be charged btw) ...
3. If the duration is too short, then presumably they are forced to charge prematurely (is that a "premature Jack-in-traction"?)
4. and find themselves vulnerable to false arrest maybe?

I'm no lawyer - just guessing that's what's happened here - maybe someone can set me straight

meanwhile, back at the ranch.. Haneef claims
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/30/1991369.htm

The AFP has been totally politicised, compromised and discredited

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/30/1991369.htm

 

[Rafa]

Maybe I have more faith in the system than others to get the right result.

Of the administrative (AFP), judicial and political arms, only one needs to make sure they look good in the eyes of the public... cause there is an election looming.

I would have more faith in the system if it was free from politcal interference. Heck, i'd have no problems with people being detained indefinitely as long as the appropriate checks and balances were in place to prevent abuse and manipulation.

I actually don't think the liberals have done anything wrong. I mean, their only job is to make sure they get re-elected.

 

[Kimosabi]

Of the administrative (AFP), judicial and political arms, only one needs to make sure they look good in the eyes of the public... cause there is an election looming.

I would have more faith in the system if it was free from politcal interference. Heck, i'd have no problems with people being detained indefinitely as long as the appropriate checks and balances were in place to prevent abuse and manipulation.

I actually don't think the liberals have done anything wrong. I mean, their only job is to make sure they get re-elected.

What everyone needs to remember is that the Howard Government has systematically filled the Public Service with 'Yes Men' over the years.

This is why the Howard continue's to manipulate these things politically...

 

[Happy]

Didn’t look through all posts and sorry if it was mentioned already, but lets not miss another possibility, that case was specifically prepared to discredit the authorities.

I am not saying that this was the case, just another possibility.

 

[Julia]

Sure I'd hate it. But what if they were guilty.





Sure there were aspects of this case that stink but the outrageous cries of political manipulation smack simply of political self interest. If you support Labor - that's fine but don't do what you are accusing others of doing - just turning every national event into political pointscoring.

You've taken the words out of my mouth, Duckman. Those who have suggested this episode has been simply created by John Howard are ignoring the initial event, i.e. the failed terror attempt in the UK. Presumably the AFP would have been advised by the UK police of some connection to Dr Haneef.
It seems that initial advice was less clear than it should have been.
However, didn't the AFP do the responsible thing and stop Dr Haneef from leaving the country? What would you have had them do? Say, oh well, if there's any problem with this bloke, he's leaving anyway so we just won't worry about it. That would hardly be responsible, would it?

So, what then? It was reported that they had some 30,000 pages of documents to read, much of it not in English. Didn't they have to hold Dr Haneef until they have some idea of whether he is in fact involved in some sort of terror relationship with his cousins? I think they did. But to hold him without charge was becoming unreasonable so they charged him with the only available accusation they could find at the time, and this turned out to be improperly based, given the location of the SIM card was in Liverpool, not in the burning vehicle as claimed. So that's a stuff up for sure, and one for which the FP and the DPP need to take joint responsibility on the basis that I understand the AFP need the advice of the DPP that the charge will hold up in court.

The charge was not made, as has been claimed in numerous talk back shows and implicitly on this forum, by Kevin Andrews. He is still saying today he wants to release information which will make clear to all of us his reasons for cancelling Dr Haneef's visa. I hope he does, if such information in fact exists, because without that he is looking very silly indeed.

I may, however, be biased about Mr Andrews as I've loathed him since he was responsible for overturning the Northern Territory's perfectly functional and legal euthanasia legislation some years ago. His self-righteous attitude renders him incapable of objectivity imo.

 

[Bushman]

I went through Europe last year, and we have a reputation over there EVERY BIT AS BAD as South Africa during the Aparthied era.

QUOTE]

Having lived under both Apartheid South Africa (albeit at a young age) and Australia, I cannot agree that the two political regimes are in any way similar.

Now I have said my piece on the Haneef case and I am disappointed in the politicisation of the case, the lack of dislcosure required by the government in relation to terrorism and immigration cases and the brinkmanship of Ruddock and Andrews for political gain.

However there is no way you can compare modern day Australia to Apartheid South Africa. Points of differentiation:
1. freedom of press.
2. judicial review of police practices.
3. severe political and economic repression of up to 95% of the population by the wealthy minority.
4. legislative acceptance of extreme racial prejudice.
etc.

While there have been instances of police corruption and violence, these are not politically sponsored a la Steve Biko's terrible death at the hands of the South African police. We do not have death squads, indefinite detention for political views, manipulation of the press, an insidious guerrilla war with Angola, racially based 'apartheid' laws designed to keep the economic wealth out of the hands of a the deserving majority, along with a list of other outrages against civil, human, judicial and economic rights.

This is not to deny Australia's past which has been far from exemplary.

Having said that, this never ending focus on terrorist activity is wearing down my faith in the modern world. Nelson Mandela was deemed a terrorist by the Apartheid regime. Today he is lauded as a man of peace. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The list goes on - Michael Collins, Paul Revere, Aung Sang Suu Kyi, etc. I am in no way excusing the terrorist activities of the modern day. I think an attack on innocent people, whether in New York, Bali, Turkey, Madrid or Iraq, is a terrible way to gain political advantage at the cost of the hopes and dreams of countless individuals going about their every day activities. But I think this whole terrorist debate is mindless and would be better served if all parties looked at the desperation that is the cause of terrorism rather than just reacting to terror activities. But that is an idealists view of the modern world.

I love Australia. I believe it is one of the great nations on earth. But we have to set an example to the rest of the world and stand up for the democratic principles and civil rights.