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SirRumpole said:
They have to nationalise it in my view. They don't seem to realise that commercial considerations should come second to having materials available to the correct standards for our infrastructure.

They seem to have been suckered by people shouting "sovereign risk" and that State ownership is Socialism. Some Labor party. :rolleyes:
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Absolutely, give it to the private sector, they will bleed the Government dry, then close it IMO.
Rinse wash repeat, why the hell can't politicians put Australia first, put it under Glvernment control and develop the process, then on sell it or bin it.
Why put the private sector in charge of it, they have no skin in the game for green steel it's a Govt intiative, the privates will just milk it and not give a ratz behind about the outcome.
It sounds like another lump of taxpayers money going around the S bend, hopefully we're wrong.
 
sptrawler said:
I will post the link and the phrase that worries me, who the hell is going to make sure that it isn't just another asset stripping junket? Why the hell wouldn't the Governments put it under Government ownership, the last bloke only paid $870m for it and the S.A and Feds are talking about pouring in $2.4 Billon, for the new owner WTF.
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The basic thinking at Whyalla is to find a new owner and government will fund repairs and modernisation of the plant, noting much of it's in an extremely run down state, with conditions attached about ongoing operations and so on.

As with anything of course, the devil will be in the legal detail.... :2twocents
 
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Smurf1976 said:
The basic thinking at Whyalla is to find a new owner and government will fund repairs and modernisation of the plant, noting much of it's in an extremely run down state, with conditions attached about ongoing operations and so on.

As with anything of course, the devil will be in the legal detail.... :2twocents
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Fully agree with the sentiment, however here in W.A we had a blast furnace, which happened to be the most efficient in Australia at changing silicon content in the pig iron produced, with minimal wastage from memory.
As soon as the parent company could divest itself of its obligations to build a steel furnace, it closed.
Australia has a history of companies taking over socially important infrastructure, then stripping them bare and bleeding Governments dry, before the carcass is cast into the ditch.
Hopefully this isn't history repeating, because if it is, I would be surprised if the Government survives the backlash.

Just my thoughts, but I've actually lived through similar stories, I was working at the blast furnace when the tragedy unfolded.

IMO the Government would be far better off owning and using Whyalla as a case study, to see if green steel is possible, before throwing endless amounts of money at private companies scamming and stringing out the dream, until it is dead on the vine and has cost the taxpayers zillions of dollars.
 
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sptrawler said:
Fully agree with the sentiment, however here in W.A we had a blast furnace, which happened to be the most efficient in Australia at changing silicon content in the pig iron produced, with minimal wastage from memory.
As soon as the parent company could divest itself of its obligations to build a steel furnace, it closed.
Australia has a history of companies taking over socially important infrastructure, then stripping them bare and bleeding Governments dry, before the carcass is cast into the ditch.
Hopefully this isn't history repeating, because if it is, I would be surprised if the Government survives the backlash.
Just my thoughts, but I've actually lived through similar stories, I was working at the blast furnace when the tragedy unfolded.
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We still haven't learnt the lesson of Hazelwood.
 
sptrawler said:
IMO the Government would be far better off owning and using Whyalla as a case study, to see if green steel is possible, before throwing endless amounts of money at private companies scamming and stringing out the dream, until it is dead on the vine and has cost the taxpayers zillions of dollars.
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In principle I fully agree. I'll post more later.

As for the present owner, well it goes like this.

To make steel you need coke but they ain't got no coke.

To make coke you need coking coal, but they ain't got no coal.

To dig coal out of the ground they need diesel, but it turns out the oil companies aren't running a charity and only supply fuel if they're paid for it.

So no diesel > no coal > no coke > no steel > no money > no diesel > no coal > no coke > no steel > no money > rinse and repeat.

With the added problem that it's all run down, worn out and neglected with major failures having stopped production for months at a time. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
In principle I fully agree. I'll post more later.

As for the present owner, well it goes like this.

To make steel you need coke but they ain't got no coke.

To make coke you need coking coal, but they ain't got no coal.

To dig coal out of the ground they need diesel, but it turns out the oil companies aren't running a charity and only supply fuel if they're paid for it.

So no diesel > no coal > no coke > no steel > no money > no diesel > no coal > no coke > no steel > no money > rinse and repeat.

With the added problem that it's all run down, worn out and neglected with major failures having stopped production for months at a time. :2twocents
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So someone else will take on board a basket case, on the hope they can not only restore the heap, but also transform it?
Not only that they will put in some of their own money? Really.
Or will we have a company that will try its utmost, with the best intentions to spend the taxpayers money until the Govt says enough is enough.
As I said, it would be far better for the Government to oversee the repairs and modifications $2.2 billion is a lot of money.
 
sptrawler said:
So someone else will take on board a basket case, on the hope they can not only restore the heap, but also transform it?
Not only that they will put in some of their own money? Really
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I see two likely outcomes:

1. Bluescope buys it and gains an effective monopoly on steel, probably along with legislation that at least somewhat tilts the market in their favour.

2. Outright nationalisation.

With an outlying chance someone else buys it.

Politically the interesting thing is the effectively universal support for action. It's one of those rare moments when Labor, Liberal, Greens, One Nation and various other independents and minor parties have all agreed something needs to be done. Hence the legislation which kicked this off apparently went through both houses of state parliament in under an hour.

That political consensus does lead me to think our politicians perhaps have "other" information not in the public domain of broader consequence. :2twocents
 
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sptrawler said:
IMO the Government would be far better off owning and using Whyalla as a case study, to see if green steel is possible, before throwing endless amounts of money at private companies scamming and stringing out the dream, until it is dead on the vine and has cost the taxpayers zillions of dollars.
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Estimates to upgrade the steel plant to world class standards are at 6 billion dollars, add another billion for the hydrogen plant and you have a nice chunk of taxpayer dollars invested in a government owned company. Run by unions, administered by unions, financed by taxpayers.

Maybe a better idea would be to use a union super funds to invest in the plant.

I would like to see that go to an election.
 
JohnDe said:
Estimates to upgrade the steel plant to world class standards are at 6 billion dollars, add another billion for the hydrogen plant and you have a nice chunk of taxpayer dollars invested in a government owned company. Run by unions, administered by unions, financed by taxpayers.
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There are precedents for things working in similar situations albeit quite some time ago.

They key is to put competent people in charge, keep the focus on running a viable business, and lock things in under long term contracts.

It does need the right mindset though and that comes down to getting the right people in all key positions.

In a technical sense my thought is it'll end up with a direct reduced iron plant being built, then take that still hot DRI directly into an electric arc furnace. Doing that on the same site achieves an energy saving compared to doing it separately, since the DRI is still hot, and also avoids briquetting as a process step.

Then upgrade the existing casting and rolling mill.

Noting that's speculation on my part and that there's nothing radical about this approach technically.

Other thing I'll add is that we do have a major change in sentiment. I mean when the Australian Industry Group's saying nationalisation is an outcome it could live with, well that says it all really. The AIG is being pragmatic there and putting ideology to the side. :2twocents
 
IMG_8287.jpeg



Australia has become even more of a high-cost economy that has lost the cheap energy advantage that helped build its steel plants, aluminium smelters and industrial processing operations in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.​
​
High hopes shared by Andrew Forrest and others that renewables-based hydrogen would turn Australia into a green energy superpower processor of its rich natural resource base have faded. The Whyalla steel bailout is based on using gas, rather than hydro, to replace coal.​


The rising price tag for Labor's Future Made in Australia raises difficult questions over whether the nation's existing industrial base can be sustained, let alone expanded into hydrogen-fuelled green dreams.


The $2.4 billion state and federal government bailout to avoid a Whyalla steel-making wipeout is supposedly a one-off, assuming that whoever ends up running the promised new electric are furnace can turn a profit out of it.


But it follows federal Labor's 10-year,


$2 billion "green aluminium production credit" subsidy aimed at funding Rio Tinto's hopes of powering its energy-hungry aluminium smelter near Gladstone with wind, solar and batteries, possibly with gas backup.


Australia has become even more of a high-cost economy that has lost the cheap energy advantage that helped build its steel plants, aluminium smelters and industrial processing operations in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.


High hopes shared by Andrew Forrest and others that renewables-based hydrogen would turn Australia into a green energy superpower processor of its rich natural resource base have faded. The Whyalla steel bailout is based on using gas, rather than hydro, to replace coal.


Now Australia's steel and aluminium


industries are caught in the crossfire of Donald Trump's trade war tariffs and


China's over-production.


Chinese money pumping up dirty nickel production in Indonesia led BHP to shut its West Australian nickel mines, refinery and smelter last year.


Other resource processing operations are at risk, including Glencores Mt Isa copper smelter.


Now Australia is offering subsidies not just to keep old industries alive but for future-facing minerals processing to supply batteries and electric vehicles.


Federal parliament last week passed a $7 billion, 10 per cent production tax credit over a decade for critical minerals such as lithium, where projects have had to be mothballed because of a global price collapse.


More or less plausible-sounding cases can be made for individual examples of these multiplying industry policy subsidies.


In Whyalla yesterday, Anthony


Albanese bagged the former Coalition government for telling American-owned car makers to "bugger off" from South Australia.


Yet the Rudd-Gillard government wasted billions of dollars of taxpayer money on a "


'green car plan" that just


lined the pockets of American and Japanese car companies on their inevitable way out the door.


It would be great if greenish steel-making could be sustained at Whyalla given its established steelworks, its access to high-quality magnetite and its nearby harbour.


But not enough is being done to tackle the impediments to investing private risk capital in Australias high-cost economy, including an internationally uncompetitive 30 per cent company tax rate.


Labor's scattergun Made In Australia subsidies extend to manufacturing solar panels in a market that has been flooded by cheap Chinese product. "We make bugger all here," Albanese complained in Whyalla yesterday.


The bailouts come with the moral hazard of investing political capital, as well as taxpayers' money. Who knows if either federal or state Labor will end up with some sort of equity stake in Whyalla, as now being flagged for the collapsed regional airline Rex


Meanwhile, the mining and energy industries that have supported Australia's modern prosperity are being unnecessarily handicapped.


Federal Environment Minister


Tanya Pliberse this week delayed approval of an extension of Woodside's


North West Shelf gas project.


As The Australian Financial Review reported, the assessment process for approving the extension to an existing project has taken more than six years.


Gas is part of the low-carbon energy transition. Yet Labor is reluctant to approve more gas supply because it could lose votes to the Greens and teals at the WA and federal elections.


It seems to be more politically rewarding to put taxpayers on the hook for industries where Australia's comparative advantage is less clear
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wayneL said:
Surprised nobody has commented so far on Clive's next sojourn into politics with his Trumpet Patriots Party or whatever it is... In an effort to mirror the policies of the gracious and noble God Emperor

A bit of a laugh really at this point... It's like whack a mole at every election.

I like the idea, but is Clive the leader to deliver that?

Yeah Nah.... but, he's got the moolah to campaign that other freedom parties don't.

It will be interesting if he can make more than a light scratch on the majors this time.
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the clive and puline party?
he must think that his money is influenced through prefrences as it sure isnt buying many sets, Senetor Babet was his only real success last eletion

 
JohnDe said:
View attachment 193695


Australia has become even more of a high-cost economy that has lost the cheap energy advantage that helped build its steel plants, aluminium smelters and industrial processing operations in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.​
​
High hopes shared by Andrew Forrest and others that renewables-based hydrogen would turn Australia into a green energy superpower processor of its rich natural resource base have faded. The Whyalla steel bailout is based on using gas, rather than hydro, to replace coal.​
Click to expand...
What's even stranger, is how the Govt is now pouring money into the private sector to convert to renewables and it is exactly the issue they had with Abbott, when he suggested it in 2014.
Strange how everything has done a complete 180 degree turn.

Abbott cancelled the carbon tax (which has never really taken off anyway) in favour of assisting heavy emmitting businesses to clean their processes and he was absolutely trashed for suggesting it. Lol

Now we have Govt's paying coal generators to stay running and smelters getting huge handouts and it's a Labor initiative.
Not that I think it's wrong, just that it shows how hypocritical the whole situation is becoming.

www.theguardian.com

Scott Morrison to reboot Tony Abbott's emissions reduction fund with $2bn

PM to announce ‘climate solutions’ fund to appeal to voters concerned about Coalition’s record
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The emissions reduction fund is a vestige of Abbott’s heavily criticised Direct Action policy. Funded by taxpayers initially at $2.5bn, the ERF pays farmers and businesses to cut carbon dioxide pollution to below what it would otherwise be. But an investigation by Guardian Australia last year found it was often difficult to determine if the fund was offering value for money.
 
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SirRumpole said:
Dear old Johnny. A true Cinservative, he did as little as possible when he was in power.
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You just proved to me that what has gone wrong with our political system, people like yourself giving an opinion without knowing.

Did you listen to the discussion?

No you did not, as can be seen by how quickly you commented.

I would have a lot more respect for you if you first absorbed the information shared, and then constructively commented.

Instead you are like any old bully, attack and belittle.

So sad that we’ve come to this, after all our past generations sacrificed for us.
 

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