Western society is doomed

[SirRumpole]

Equally, as you seem to be aware of this, you might be open to a chat with some random down at the pub, like me? Would it be reasonable to expect there is more than just you and me?

I remember times when one could get into a deep conversation with someone you'd only just met, and perhaps may never see again. That was only ~15 years ago.

Have we changed so profoundly, do quickly?

If so, how have "we" allowed this?

I might conjecture that people are a lot more disinterested in factors outside their immediate lives than before, because most people know that the ordinary person can't do a lot about big things because the political system in general is corrupt, or looking out for themselves, or are disinterested in anything that won't win or lose the next election.

Wen the plebs are fighting for their own survival and trying to put a roof over their heads then few other things matter. I would also say that we on this forum are a subset that is "relatively" well off and fairly well educated and we are no a particularly balanced sample of the population. We may have more time to discuss the bigger things but I think that the "average" wage earners have other things on their minds.

 

[wayneL]

I might conjecture that people are a lot more disinterested in factors outside their immediate lives than before, because most people know that the ordinary person can't do a lot about big things because the political system in general is corrupt, or looking out for themselves, or are disinterested in anything that won't win or lose the next election.

Wen the plebs are fighting for their own survival and trying to put a roof over their heads then few other things matter. I would also say that we on this forum are a subset that is "relatively" well off and fairly well educated and we are no a particularly balanced sample of the population. We may have more time to discuss the bigger things but I think that the "average" wage earners have other things on their minds.

Yeah you might be right on the money there Horace.

In my friendship and business relationships most people are at least reasonably well off.

I guess lunchtime at the pub introduces a whole 'nuther range of cohorts.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Yeah you might be right on the money there Horace.
In my friendship and business relationships most people are at least reasonably well off.

you ought to be a few years older, and widowed, and you'll discover true invisibilty.

I guess lunchtime at the pub introduces a whole 'nuther range of cohorts.

or nutter?

 

[Knobby22]

Yep sure, agreed.

Equally, as you seem to be aware of this, you might be open to a chat with some random down at the pub, like me? Would it be reasonable to expect there is more than just you and me?

I remember times when one could get into a deep conversation with someone you'd only just met, and perhaps may never see again. That was only ~15 years ago.

Have we changed so profoundly, do quickly?

If so, how have "we" allowed this?

Still happens, but it's getting rarer.
I was listening to a Radio National psychology show (In the mind) and it is quite scary how influence is being obtained through the use of fear and outrage. If you look at the USA political system both Democrats and Republicans use it extensively.

If something makes me angry now I immediately become suspicious.

I might be in Perth later this year so you might get the chance!

 

[wayneL]

you ought to be a few years older, and widowed, and you'll discover true invisibilty.


or nutter?

1/ Yet another symptom of the current societal malaise, unfortunately.

2/ Just keeping the vernacular of the common folk (and I'm as common as muck)

Still happens, but it's getting rarer.
I was listening to a Radio National psychology show (In the mind) and it is quite scary how influence is being obtained through the use of fear and outrage. If you look at the USA political system both Democrats and Republicans use it extensively.

If something makes me angry now I immediately become suspicious.

I might be in Perth later this year so you might get the chance!

I'm up for it, let me know

 

[Smurf1976]

I was just at the pub by myself having a counter lunch. Trying to have a brief chat was like as if I was dressed in a raincoat and had just exposed myself.

What has gone wrong?

We've lost the ability to disagree.

It used to be the case that whether you agreed or disagreed with what someone was saying, you'd respect their right to a different opinion and you'd expect them to do likewise. Adults could have a discussion, air their differing viewpoints, and finish in polite disagreement without that being a problem.

Versus today the mere concept of disagreeing is viewed as totally unacceptable by some. How dare you challenge my beliefs! Bearing in mind it's at the point where this is serious, worst case it could result in real consequences including legal and financial, so the "safe" solution is just say nothing at all.

Just my observation but I really don't perceive the majority as being at all in agreement with this situation. It's just that they've been forced into it under threat basically - very few can afford to take the risk so the simplest thing is keep quiet but beneath the surface I do think there's a lot of dislike of it and at some point the pendulum will swing the other way.

 

[sptrawler]

1/ Nobody seems willing to take about this.

2/ People seem to be terrified of just having an inane chat about whatever (with a small number of exceptions)

I was just at the pub by myself having a counter lunch. Trying to have a brief chat was like as if I was dressed in a raincoat and had just exposed myself.

What has gone wrong?

People are stressed, a new norm is being put in place, life has been great everyone's living the dream.

But there is no one to put the rubbish out, as the old saying goes.

The plebs are being put to the sword, as another old saying goes, it didn't in recent times mean being killed, but meant were being put under immense strain and pressure.

You have to love old sayings, it was the way knowledge was passed on from generation to generation, before people could read and write.

 

[sptrawler]

We've lost the ability to disagree.

It used to be the case that whether you agreed or disagreed with what someone was saying, you'd respect their right to a different opinion and you'd expect them to do likewise. Adults could have a discussion, air their differing viewpoints, and finish in polite disagreement without that being a problem.

Versus today the mere concept of disagreeing is viewed as totally unacceptable by some. How dare you challenge my beliefs! Bearing in mind it's at the point where this is serious, worst case it could result in real consequences including legal and financial, so the "safe" solution is just say nothing at all.

Just my observation but I really don't perceive the majority as being at all in agreement with this situation. It's just that they've been forced into it under threat basically - very few can afford to take the risk so the simplest thing is keep quiet but beneath the surface I do think there's a lot of dislike of it and at some point the pendulum will swing the other way.

Another old saying, never discuss politics or religion, when talking with friends.

 

[Smurf1976]

Another old saying, never discuss politics or religion, when talking with friends.

Whilst good advice, I think there was a lot more tolerance in the past than there is today. What was a difference of opinion and a quick moving on to another subject back then seems to be taken far more seriously today.

Especially when it comes to strangers.

 

[sptrawler]

Whilst good advice, I think there was a lot more tolerance in the past than there is today. What was a difference of opinion and a quick moving on to another subject back then seems to be taken far more seriously today.

Especially when it comes to strangers.

My guess it is all going to turn to manure, as usual, there is no one with any brains looking at the bigger picture.

It will end up a mess, but maybe that's what we need, the way it is things are turning to manure fast on most fronts.

 

[SirRumpole]

We've lost the ability to disagree.

It used to be the case that whether you agreed or disagreed with what someone was saying, you'd respect their right to a different opinion and you'd expect them to do likewise. Adults could have a discussion, air their differing viewpoints, and finish in polite disagreement without that being a problem.

Versus today the mere concept of disagreeing is viewed as totally unacceptable by some. How dare you challenge my beliefs! Bearing in mind it's at the point where this is serious, worst case it could result in real consequences including legal and financial, so the "safe" solution is just say nothing at all.

Just my observation but I really don't perceive the majority as being at all in agreement with this situation. It's just that they've been forced into it under threat basically - very few can afford to take the risk so the simplest thing is keep quiet but beneath the surface I do think there's a lot of dislike of it and at some point the pendulum will swing the other way.

The extremists are speaking with louder voices and the media are pandering to them, eg the Gaza demonstrators demanding that people use the language about Israel that they want used, extreme climate change views are getting a run in the media for shock value, while the rational middle viewpoints are pushed into the background .

So no wonder that our tolerance levels are decreasing when reasonable opinions are just shouted down by noisy minorities.

 

[IFocus]

Yeah nah, go and read newspapers of old particularly the US, UK ones extreme sensationalized stories setup to sell the news the letters to the editor section arguments that come straight from the asylum (and that's the ones printed image what didn't).

The only difference now is the extreme right has normalised how the old days were better (if you were rich) how much closer we all were (crime rates were higher) life spans much shorter, minorities were marginalised and openly discriminated against, tax rates were higher etc. .

It's interesting the effect culture wars have had with the older generation that have bought into the BS built by extreme conservatives as a distraction from their parasitic policy's of fleecing the sheep.

Carry on

 

[sptrawler]

The only difference now is the extreme right has normalised how the old days were better (if you were rich) how much closer we all were (crime rates were higher) life spans much shorter, minorities were marginalised and openly discriminated against, tax rates were higher etc. .

It's interesting the effect culture wars have had with the older generation that have bought into the BS built by extreme conservatives as a distraction from their parasitic policy's of fleecing the sheep.

Carry on

Funny that you feel that things have improved over the last 30 years, it has been mostly under a Coalition Government, go figure.

 

[Smurf1976]

The only difference now is the extreme right has normalised how the old days were better

What's changed is the acceptability of shutting down debate.

Totally unacceptable in the past, even those who could've stopped discussion on something they disagreed with generally respected "the right to free expression", whereas today it's far more acceptable to shut down dissenting views.

That situation by its very nature shifts the balance in favour of conservative outcomes. Progress relies on the ability to propose and freely discuss even the most controversial ideas without fear of undue consequence whereas conservatism wins by default if no such discussion takes place.

 

[IFocus]

What's changed is the acceptability of shutting down debate.

Totally unacceptable in the past, even those who could've stopped discussion on something they disagreed with generally respected "the right to free expression", whereas today it's far more acceptable to shut down dissenting views.

That situation by its very nature shifts the balance in favour of conservative outcomes. Progress relies on the ability to propose and freely discuss even the most controversial ideas without fear of undue consequence whereas conservatism wins by default if no such discussion takes place.

Afraid I disagree this is shutting down debate from the past as posted in another thread

Government’s controversial attempt to ban small gatherings

In the minds of many, the late 1960s and early 1970s was a turbulent time and it was during this period that a piece of law well-known as simply ‘54B’ had West Australians taking to the streets to protest.

thewest.com.au

 

[wayneL]

Afraid I disagree this is shutting down debate from the past as posted in another thread

Government’s controversial attempt to ban small gatherings

In the minds of many, the late 1960s and early 1970s was a turbulent time and it was during this period that a piece of law well-known as simply ‘54B’ had West Australians taking to the streets to protest.

thewest.com.au

This is why people should always support libertarians. It is the left or the right, it certainly was indeed the right in those days that were shutting down debate. These days it is your mob, the extreme left.

Neither is acceptable at all.

This is why I will never give my primary vote to the Liberals, Labor, or the egregious Greens ever again. The authoritarian reflex is unabated in the toxic individual which inhabit those parties.

They are purportedly there to serve us not us here to serve them. The plebeians have completely forgotten this fact and have been gaslighted into thinking the opposite.

If allowed to progress it will eventually lead to violent revolution, which introduces an element of chaos and unpredictable outcomes.

 

[wayneL]

This is why people should always support libertarians. It is the left or the right, it certainly was indeed the right in those days that were shutting down debate. These days it is your mob, the extreme left.

Neither is acceptable at all.

This is why I will never give my primary vote to the Liberals, Labor, or the egregious Greens ever again. The authoritarian reflex is unabated in the toxic individual which inhabit those parties.

They are purportedly there to serve us not us here to serve them. The plebeians have completely forgotten this fact and have been gaslighted into thinking the opposite.

If allowed to progress it will eventually lead to violent revolution, which introduces an element of chaos and unpredictable outcomes.

And apologies, once again, for the incomprehensible autocorrects

My fault for not proofreading

 

[Smurf1976]

Afraid I disagree this is shutting down debate from the past as posted in another thread

I agree things did happen like that in the past but I'll argue it's far worse now. At least back then there was an outcry against the attempt to silence the people whereas today the response is far more muted.

Pick any issue from the past which saw the emergence of a movement that ultimately brought change. Obvious examples being environmentalism or gay rights as it was known at the time.

Would they succeed if starting from scratch today?

Or has real, actual progress now become all but impossible since any issue becomes bogged down in identity politics or, worse still, is outright shut down rather than debating the subject on merit?

 

[SirRumpole]

Or has real, actual progress now become far more difficult since any issue becomes bogged down in identity politics and "legal" type approaches rather than debating the subject on merit?

Definitely, and I think it is the "progressives" that are basically to blame, eg Extinction Rebelllion disrupting people trying to get to work and making fools of themselves rather than trying to present a reasoned argument.

Other examples can be found of people who think that just making a noise is a substitute for rational debate.

 

[IFocus]

I agree things did happen like that in the past but I'll argue it's far worse now. At least back then there was an outcry against the attempt to silence the people whereas today the response is far more muted.

Pick any issue from the past which saw the emergence of a movement that ultimately brought change. Obvious examples being environmentalism or gay rights as it was known at the time.

Would they succeed if starting from scratch today?

Or has real, actual progress now become all but impossible since any issue becomes bogged down in identity politics or, worse still, is outright shut down rather than debating the subject on merit?

We had fearless unions, men and women of stout hearts who stood up and wouldn't be silenced... all long gone.