Electric cars?

[SirRumpole]

Swing back to hybrids in the US.

Why petrol is making a temporary comeback in the battle with EVs

Amongst the furore and fallout among car manufacturers and Australia's new emissions laws, a separate split is developing over EV technology that could determine the future of our new critical minerals quest, writes Ian Verrender.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Why not just buy the cars and give thenm to Poor people?

Or buy the cars for the Comm Car fleet and sell them later on as happens now.

 

[JohnDe]

Or buy the cars for the Comm Car fleet and sell them later on as happens now.

Navigating the Shift: Challenges and Considerations in the Used EV Market​

In a landscape increasingly shaped by environmental concerns and technological advancements, the automotive industry is undergoing a profound transformation. As the world moves towards a greener future, the spotlight on electric vehicles (EVs) intensifies. However, recent trends in the used car market raise questions about the feasibility and affordability of this transition for everyday consumers.

According to recent data, nationally, used car sales surged by 7.3% month-on-month in January. Notably, petrol and diesel vehicles continued to dominate the market, comprising 96% of total sales. Meanwhile, the market for used electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) witnessed a decline. This trend sheds light on the challenges surrounding the adoption of EVs in the secondary market.

The disparity in demand between traditional internal combustion engine vehicles and EVs underscores a crucial issue: the perceived value and affordability of used electric vehicles. Despite governmental incentives and a growing emphasis on sustainable transportation, many consumers remain hesitant to embrace EVs in the pre-owned market.

One significant factor contributing to this hesitation is the financial aspect. While the upfront cost of new EVs may be offset by incentives and long-term savings on fuel and maintenance, the same cannot always be said for their resale value. As the market for used EVs struggles to gain traction, concerns about depreciation and lower residual values loom large.

For the average consumer—often referred to as "mum and dad" buyers—this poses a dilemma. How can they justify investing in a more expensive EV when faced with the prospect of diminished returns down the line? The traditional model of purchasing a vehicle with the intention of trading it in for a newer model after several years may not hold the same appeal in the EV market.

One of the primary reasons for the lower residual value of used EVs is the rapid pace of technological advancement. As newer models with longer ranges and enhanced features enter the market, older EVs may quickly become outdated, further eroding their resale value. Additionally, concerns about battery degradation and the availability of charging infrastructure add another layer of uncertainty for prospective buyers.

Addressing these challenges requires a multifaceted approach. Firstly, there needs to be continued support and incentives from governments to make EVs more accessible and affordable for consumers. This could include measures such as subsidies for purchasing EVs, tax incentives, and investment in charging infrastructure.

Secondly, there is a need for greater transparency and education surrounding the total cost of ownership of EVs. While the initial sticker price of EVs may be higher than their ICE counterparts, highlighting the long-term savings on fuel and maintenance can help consumers make more informed decisions.

Furthermore, manufacturers and dealerships must explore innovative solutions to mitigate concerns about depreciation and residual values. This could involve introducing buy-back guarantees or leasing options that offer greater flexibility and peace of mind for consumers.

In conclusion, while the shift towards electric vehicles represents a significant step towards a more sustainable future, challenges persist in the secondary market. Balancing the upfront cost of EVs with concerns about depreciation and resale value remains a pressing issue for consumers. By addressing these challenges through policy interventions, education, and industry innovation, we can pave the way for a smoother transition to a greener automotive landscape.

Navigating the Shift: Challenges and Considerations in the Used EV Market

The IAME aims to assist members by providing industry relevant Automotive Training, Branch Information sessions, Seminars, as well as Auditing, Assessing and Consulting Services. Members also benefit from technology updates provided via "The Automotive Engineer" journal distributed seasonally.

www.iame.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

"Furthermore, manufacturers and dealerships must explore innovative solutions to mitigate concerns about depreciation and residual values. This could involve introducing buy-back guarantees or leasing options that offer greater flexibility and peace of mind for consumers."

Or maybe "modular" designs that allow older vehicles to be easily updated with new technology.

 

[sptrawler]

"Furthermore, manufacturers and dealerships must explore innovative solutions to mitigate concerns about depreciation and residual values. This could involve introducing buy-back guarantees or leasing options that offer greater flexibility and peace of mind for consumers."

Or maybe "modular" designs that allow older vehicles to be easily updated with new technology.

Updatable products are not a good design for manufacturers to make money, haven't you noticed how you can no longer change the mobile phone battery and they have removed the memory expansion slot, in built obsolescence and subscriptions, the new legalised robbing model.

Throw away phones, laptops, tablets, subscription T.V and soon to arrive subscription cars, in the name of sustainability.

 

[basilio]

It will be great when we get rid of these diesel monster trucks off the road and get into something more sensible, let's be honest a Ford Ranger is so yesterday, today's hipsters want to be seen in a Wuling Bingo.
Sorry my apologies a Wuling Bingo Plus, I mean who would be seen dead in a dolphin or a seagull, horrible thought.

Video: GM Fights Back Against BYD With The Wuling Bingo Plus

This $12,500 EV can cruise at a maximum of 510 KM (317 miles), and is aimed at the BYD Dolphin and BYD Seagull.

insideevs.com

A seriously attractive and practical EV. The presenter made a scorching reference to the effective non competitiveness of non Chinese cars at the end of the review. The price/value equation is stark.

 

[JohnDe]

"Furthermore, manufacturers and dealerships must explore innovative solutions to mitigate concerns about depreciation and residual values. This could involve introducing buy-back guarantees or leasing options that offer greater flexibility and peace of mind for consumers."

Updatable products are not a good design for manufacturers to make money, haven't you noticed how you can no longer change the mobile phone battery and they have removed the memory expansion slot, in built obsolescence and subscriptions, the new legalised robbing model.

Throw away phones, laptops, tablets, subscription T.V and soon to arrive subscription cars, in the name of sustainability.

I agree, to a certain extent. We live in a throw away society, though I do think some things are changing for the better.

Updateable and upgradeable are two different concepts.

My first Apple iMac purchase was a 2009 27in base model with 8GB ram, 8GB graphics card, and a terabyte HDD. I upgraded the RAM to 16GB and used it as our family computer for everything including video and photo editing. It was still being used as our second computer up until Apple stopped the updates recently.
Without updates it became a security risk, however, I gave it to my mother in-law and she is using it to research her family tree.

Phones are the same, they can't be upgraded but they can be updated. When was the last time a phone battery died? I know people that are still using 10 year old iPhones with the same battery.

EVs are the same, upgrades and updates.

The first Telstra Model S have gone through upgrades with the screen and processor. All Tesla's are updateable, and do have regular updates that fix issues, improve efficiency, add extra features, etc.

Modern ICEV are not upgradeable or updatable. Take the Ford Focus and Fiesta built about 2012 to 2016, transmission was a hybrid manual that acted as an automatic. they were failing on a regular basis, the software updates were numerous but still issues arose, parts wore prematurely. Ford Extended the warranty and kept replacing or repairing long after warranty was gone. There was a class action from owners. Ford had no upgradeable fix; they just slowly wore down owners and discontinued the transmission. Those Focus & Fiesta models are now worth a fraction of their true value and are a hit and miss when it comes to reliability.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes with trains I think it will depend a lot on the longevity of the batteries, trains work hard and for long duration, as usual time will tell.
I'm not invested in either technology ATM (battery or hydrogen) so it is only from an interest position for me.

Also, Consider that the standard Locomotive is already run by an electric motor, it just has a big Diesel generator and a bunch of diesel fuel tanks to power the electric motor, But if you went the full electric route, you can remove the Diesel generator and the fuel tanks which makes some room for batteries, so you already get a certain amount of range before you even need to consider adding etc batteries in a wagon.

And if you had the ability to charge as you went using over head wires at certain points you might not even need a battery wagon, or at least not a huge one.

 

[basilio]

Came across the current situation regarding Lithium Sulfur batteries.
Very promising technology. They offer double plus the energy capacity of LiOn batteries and are only 40% the weight.
They don't use nickel, cobalt or manganese. Far better environmentally and cheaper to produce.

They are currently in commercial production.

Lyten’s lithium-sulfur batteries to power Chrysler’s Halcyon Concept car​

Lyten reports its batteries offer double the energy density of those made from traditional lithium-ion chemistries due to their graphene cell.

Lyten’s lithium-sulfur batteries to power Chrysler’s Halcyon Concept car

Lyten reports its batteries offer double the energy density of those made from traditional lithium-ion chemistries due to their graphene cell.

pv-magazine-usa.com

 

[Value Collector]

Or buy the cars for the Comm Car fleet and sell them later on as happens now.

As. I explained they would only be able to get 80 cars then, vs 3100. and its basically free to the government because its covered by the stamp duty and GST income basically.

 

[basilio]

Worth checking out Lyten. They have an exceptional commercial product. It is in production. They have investment

The Supermaterial Applications Company

Products to Power the Clean Industrial Revolution. We use 3D Graphene supermaterials to build products that transform the biggest industries on the planet.

lyten.com

Electrifying

lyten.com

 

[JohnDe]

This article reminds me of Australia's vehicle fleet at the moment. Large SUV's and Utes are dominating our roads, tax incentives are geared towards business having no choice but to buy one to reduce tax.

My business requires one Ute and one sedan or wagon. In 2013 I ordered a new Holden VF Commodore Ute to replace the 1998 Ford XG Ute. About three or four years ago the tax depreciation was over, and the accountant said, "buy a new Ute".

I did not and still do not want another Ute, I like the VF and plan on keeping it for a very long time. Not only is it the last Holden Ute, but it is also a very comfortable and striking SS-V model.

What I need was a sedan for other work-related chores, like driving people around and using it to learn about EVs. However, because sedans are no commercial vehicles the tax incentive is extremely low. My account kept pushing for me to get a "comfortable dual cab Ute".

On principle, I refused, and my business owns a Ute that is Tax neutral, a sedan receiving the minimal tax breaks, and I have to pay more tax than my mates that update to a bigger Ute every 3 or 4 years.

The tax argument is starting to wear me down. I have recently been thinking about purchasing one of those monster dual cab Utes to help with my tax bill. that will be another car t my fleet, because I will never sell the VF SS-V.

What a mad world we live in.

Why American cars are so big​

A regulatory loophole that incentivised sales of big vehicles is about to be tightened​

Americans love to super-size—and not just their fast food. They favour huge sport-utility vehicles (suvs) and pickup trucks over small cars. Some 8.7m hit the road in 2023, accounting for more than half of all sales of new vehicles, according to JATO Dynamics, a research firm. Although European cars are also getting bigger, American ones still have a comfortable lead: in 2022 the average car sold in America weighed 1,857kg, almost 20% more than the average in Europe. Wide roads and big parking spaces accommodate this preference for hefty rides—and so does the law. But a loophole that for nearly 50 years has incentivised sales of big vehicles will soon be tightened. Will that lead Americans to buy smaller cars?

In 1973 oil-producing Arab countries cut shipments to America to punish it for supporting Israel in the Yom Kippur war: sharp increases in fuel prices, long queues at petrol stations and a deep recession followed. In 1975, in response to the crisis, the federal government imposed fuel-economy standards on carmakers. By 1985 all new models would have to reach 27.5 miles per (American) gallon (11.7km/litre), up from an average of 13mpg. Today the law mandates 40mpg. To increase efficiency, manufacturers had to use more complex engines, which made their cars costlier. To ease the burden on small businesses that relied on big vehicles, the government exempted “light trucks”, any vehicle that could be used off road and weighed less than 8,500lb (3855kg). That meant suvs—typically among the biggest and least-efficient cars—were swept into the category and avoided the new fuel standards.

Because making light trucks held to lower environmental standards was more profitable than building small clean cars, automakers marketed big models, including suvs, enthusiastically. They portrayed them as quintessentially American, embodying freedom, strength and adventurousness. By 2002 light trucks made up a bigger share of light-duty vehicle sales than cars. After the price shock of the 1970s, by the 1990s petrol had become cheaper in America than in other rich countries—so the cost of running a big car did not deter buyers. Such models are convenient for suburban living, and consumers see them as safe. Even when buying cars that are not exempt from efficiency standards, Americans favour chunky sedans over small city cars, which made up just 8% of vehicle sales in 2023, compared with 36% in Europe. And although suvs have a similar market share—a little over half of new vehicles—in both America and Europe, American models are bigger and less efficient.

That has been bad for the climate. Transport is the largest source of greenhouse gases in America, and almost 60% of those emissions come from cars and other light-duty vehicles. It has been bad for the safety of other road users too. Heavier cars are more likely to kill people if they hit them. According to a study conducted at the University of Hawaii, Pedestrians are almost 70% more likely to be killed if they are hit by a light truck as opposed to a car.

The rule favouring big petrol-guzzlers is about to change. The Environmental Protection Agency (epa), which sets limits on cars’ emissions, announced in April 2023 that it planned to tighten standards across the board and narrow the definition of a light truck. The agency is due to publish final rules this year. The CO2-emission limit for cars is currently 161 grams per kilometre, compared with 276 grams for light trucks, a 71% difference; the epa is expected to cut that gap to 22% by 2032, forcing manufacturers to use more efficient engines in their big models, which will raise the price of big cars relative to smaller ones. The agency believes that its new rules are so strict that they will speed up the move towards electric vehicles (evs), so that by 2032 two-thirds of new sales will be electric.

Yet this may make little difference to the size of cars. Many popular vehicles, such as the Ford F-150, would still count as light trucks and continue to benefit from lower efficiency standards, and hence lower costs and prices. And evs are developing the same weight problem as conventional cars. The epa does not regulate evs’ indirect emissions, even though heavier models require more electricity to charge, and need bigger batteries, which contain more of the scarce metals used to make those batteries. In 2022 60% of electric-vehicle sales in America were suvs, according to the International Energy Agency. Regulation alone may not be enough to change the country’s taste for super-sized cars.

 

[JohnDe]

Came across the current situation regarding Lithium Sulfur batteries.
Very promising technology. They offer double plus the energy capacity of LiOn batteries and are only 40% the weight.
They don't use nickel, cobalt or manganese. Far better environmentally and cheaper to produce.

They are currently in commercial production.

Lyten’s lithium-sulfur batteries to power Chrysler’s Halcyon Concept car​

Lyten reports its batteries offer double the energy density of those made from traditional lithium-ion chemistries due to their graphene cell.

Lyten’s lithium-sulfur batteries to power Chrysler’s Halcyon Concept car

Lyten reports its batteries offer double the energy density of those made from traditional lithium-ion chemistries due to their graphene cell.

pv-magazine-usa.com

The idea sounds good and has been around since 2008 for high altitude flight.

However, there are issues. Including: reduced cycle life and safety concerns. If it is commercially used in vehicles, it is probably several years away from mass production.

Lithium sulfur battery vs lithium ion battery - comparison and how to choose

Several differences emerge across various aspects when comparing lithium sulfur battery vs lithium ion battery.

www.tycorun.com

 

[SirRumpole]

As. I explained they would only be able to get 80 cars then, vs 3100. and its basically free to the government because its covered by the stamp duty and GST income basically.

"
There is a lot of business in government fleet sales. The largest fleet is that of the NSW Government, which owns or leases over 25,000 vehicles – 4000 of them in the police force alone. The Commonwealth fleet contains over 12,000 vehicles – 7000 passenger vehicles (including SUVs) and over 5000 light and heavy commercial vehicles. Half are leased and half are owned.

Victoria’s VicFleet has nearly 10,000 vehicles. The other states all have fleets roughly in proportion to their populations, and most local government authorities have their own fleets. Brisbane City Council, by far the largest LGA in Australia, has 3800 vehicles. There are well over 200,000 vehicles in government fleets around Australia."

Driving change: fleet management - Government News

NSW's StateFleet set to be dismantled.

www.governmentnews.com.au

 

[mullokintyre]

"
There is a lot of business in government fleet sales. The largest fleet is that of the NSW Government, which owns or leases over 25,000 vehicles – 4000 of them in the police force alone. The Commonwealth fleet contains over 12,000 vehicles – 7000 passenger vehicles (including SUVs) and over 5000 light and heavy commercial vehicles. Half are leased and half are owned.

Victoria’s VicFleet has nearly 10,000 vehicles. The other states all have fleets roughly in proportion to their populations, and most local government authorities have their own fleets. Brisbane City Council, by far the largest LGA in Australia, has 3800 vehicles. There are well over 200,000 vehicles in government fleets around Australia."

Driving change: fleet management - Government News

NSW's StateFleet set to be dismantled.

www.governmentnews.com.au

C'mon Horace, stop introducing fatcs figures and statistics.
its the vibe you know.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Also, Consider that the standard Locomotive is already run by an electric motor, it just has a big Diesel generator and a bunch of diesel fuel tanks to power the electric motor, But if you went the full electric route, you can remove the Diesel generator and the fuel tanks which makes some room for batteries, so you already get a certain amount of range before you even need to consider adding etc batteries in a wagon.

And if you had the ability to charge as you went using over head wires at certain points you might not even need a battery wagon, or at least not a huge one.

Yes I know that diesel electric trains have electric drive motors, myself and @IFocus were overhauling them nearly 50 years ago, we were also working on the diesel motors as they were used in the power stations in W.A country towns like Exmouth which ran ex train diesels.

The full electric route you talk about, is already in place in most of the World including Australia, I was referring to areas where full electric isn't available or viable e.g the Nullarbor and the Ghan where regenerative charging of the battery will be very limited.

 

[sptrawler]

I agree, to a certain extent. We live in a throw away society, though I do think some things are changing for the better.

Updateable and upgradeable are two different concepts.

The part that really galls me John, is the subscription model, I look at young people today and see how they are getting stitched up to a lifetime of debt, due to the next pay packet being spent on subscriptions before they have earned it.

The day of saving up to buy anything is fast going and being replaced with the subscription or afterpay sort of model, then all it becomes is which company can stitch the kid up first, it will lead to a cashless society because no one will have any money left over after paying for all the $hit they are stitched up for.

 

[IFocus]

Yes I know that diesel electric trains have electric drive motors, myself and @IFocus were overhauling them nearly 50 years ago, we were also working on the diesel motors as they were used in the power stations in W.A country towns like Exmouth which ran ex train diesels.

The full electric route you talk about, is already in place in most of the World including Australia, I was referring to areas where full electric isn't available or viable e.g the Nullarbor and the Ghan where regenerative charging of the battery will be very limited.

Skimmed commutators for 3 to 6 months cough cough segment insulation only a bit of silica cough cough good days

Remember cleaning parts in X55 I was 15 years old.

Not sure you could scale a battery system big enough for ore trains or as you say long distance trains and if you did not sure I would want to be sitting anywhere near it.

VC over heads lines in remote areas could done but would be very high maintenance (dust) I suspect diesel / electric is still the best way to get the job done may become hydrogen / electric in the future still I see trials of a battery operated dump truck so who knows.

 

[sptrawler]

Skimmed commutators for 3 to 6 months cough cough segment insulation only a bit of silica cough cough good days

Remember cleaning parts in X55 I was 15 years old.

Jeez that brings back memories, first we used to pressure clean with Turco ( I can't remember the exact spelling) then it was banned because it was carcinogenic and replaced it with X55, then that was banned years later as it was carcinogenic also.

Like you say the silica exposure, then in the power stations all the thermal lagging was blue asbestos, jeezus we have done well to still be alive IMO.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes I know that diesel electric trains have electric drive motors, myself and @IFocus were overhauling them nearly 50 years ago, we were also working on the diesel motors as they were used in the power stations in W.A country towns like Exmouth which ran ex train diesels.

The full electric route you talk about, is already in place in most of the World including Australia, I was referring to areas where full electric isn't available or viable e.g the Nullarbor and the Ghan where regenerative charging of the battery will be very limited.

On long haul like the Nullarbor just hitch up a couple of battery wagons.