Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

2020hindsight said:

Smurf , better borrow Wayne's hummer and do a rain dance

Click to expand...

A rain dance is looking like an attractive option at the moment. Might have to take a trip to Miena (Great Lake dam site) and give it a go. Probably more effective to just take a few buckets of water with me though and tip them in. That'll keep Poatina running at its current rate for all of another 0.0003 seconds...

It might work better to just jack the Hummer up, attach an alternator to the wheels and put a brick on the accelerator pedal. Either that or take the Premier's suggestion and participate in Earth Hour (it's just to help the environment of course ).

Smurf1976 said:

... take a few buckets of water with me though and tip them in. That'll keep Poatina running at its current rate for all of another 0.0003 seconds...

... Either that or take the Premier's suggestion and participate in Earth Hour (it's just to help the environment of course ).

Click to expand...

1. Knowing you, that 0.0003 seconds is mathematically accurate lol.

2. possibly off topic - but SUREly all that spraying of the Tasmanian forest and forestry regrowth projects has something to do with the Tassie Devils problems. (?)

I mean last time I was down there - or time b4 - I saw an old interview on TV of some bloke who was sprayed by one the forestry's planes - and since died of a horrible cancer (aren't they all).

Surely the Forestry (with of course the Premier's full backing) are bordering on envoironmental vandalism there?

Sorry to harper back on this again but reducing PACKAGING is a major answer to all this global warming. The Chinese have banned the use of plastic carrier bags and they are the first country to do this.

Check your bin and see what is in it. Could you have bought items without packaging with a bit more effort. Have you refused to buy items just because they have too much packaging?
Do you take your own bag to get shopping?
Don't buy refrigerated or frozen packaged food.
If you'r offered a bag always say no thanks.

noirua said:

Sorry to harper back on this again but reducing PACKAGING is a major answer to all this global warming. The Chinese have banned the use of plastic carrier bags and they are the first country to do this.

Check your bin and see what is in it. Could you have bought items without packaging with a bit more effort. Have you refused to buy items just because they have too much packaging?
Do you take your own bag to get shopping?
Don't buy refrigerated or frozen packaged food.
If you'r offered a bag always say no thanks.

Click to expand...

Walking half a kilometer to the shops to get groceries instead of taking the car saves (envioronmentally) the equivalent of about 500 plastic shopping bags. The big one for global warming is to leave the car in the garage.

Can we start to get this message across or is it the too hard basket. Don't get me wrong, I am against the plastic bags also.

spot on noi

This next example is not quite on your topic, but waste in packaging as well as deception ....

I bought some liver drops for the bludy dog -
(the bitch - and her mother was a bitch too - anyway..)

a coupla dozen come all wrapped in a small plastic bag (fair enough so far) then that's in a carboard packet with a little window and a flip top lid with special dovetail tab on top -

so
a) opening it is like "pass the parcel" at an infant's birthday party,
b) when you think you're buying about 100 of these things you're lucky to get 25
b) waste of money, resources etc- all for
c) some flaming dead bits of liver to give to a dog!

But you're right plastic should be used sparingly.
PS I can tell you the amount of gladwrap used in industry would frighten the socks off most here. For instance we send maybe 10 pallets of product out on a daily basis at work. Each is wrapped with about 30 metres of 600mm wide gladwrap to keep out dust etc

2020hindsight said:

1. Knowing you, that 0.0003 seconds is mathematically accurate lol.

2. possibly off topic - but SUREly all that spraying of the Tasmanian forest and forestry regrowth projects has something to do with the Tassie Devils problems. (?)

I mean last time I was down there - or time b4 - I saw an old interview on TV of some bloke who was sprayed by one the forestry's planes - and since died of a horrible cancer (aren't they all).

Surely the Forestry (with of course the Premier's full backing) are bordering on envoironmental vandalism there?

Click to expand...

Yep, the 0.0003 seconds is about right for the current rate of discharge.

Warning: rant follows.

As for the forests, let's just say I'm not at all keen on the things they are allowed to get up to. And I would lump Labor, Liberal and the Greens as all guilty of either starting, encouraging or allowing this outright disaster of an industry to operate.

Actually, forestry not dams is the primary reason I'm not keen on the Greens and conservationists in general. If you look at their big campaign successes, like the Franklin and Wesley Vale, then they have pretty much all ended up with the same outcome. An increase in logging either because it was actually an idea proposed by conservationists (during the Franklin era) or because of the loss of other industry (eg Wesley Vale).

Bottom line is there wouldn't be anywhere near as much logging in Tas as there is right now if the Comalco-TEMCO-ANM-EZ-APPM-HEC that dominated the state's economy for decaces had carried on their collective way. Two more flooded rivers and a couple of localised pollution hotspots on the NW coast would have been the ONLY consequences. Less than 1% of the state's land mass affected.

Instead we got this forestry farce that's the equivalent of turning gold into lead. Basically, what they do is rip out all the eucalypt trees (only the trunk) and then push EVERYTHING else into a great big pile. That's all the other tree species, all the branches, roots and so on. In short, most of what's there ends up in the pile. And these massive piles have to be seen to be believed.

Then they wait for some nice still days in Autumn, get the flame thrower out and set the whole lot on fire. The amount of smoke that produces is incredible. I just can't ever accept that it's a worthwhile use of resources and it's pollution on a scale that nobody else would ever contemplate.

The zinc works spent $100 million to stop a bit of pollution, Comalco spent $$$ millions too, TEMCO built wet lands, ANM and the NW mills put in all kinds of scrubbers and so on. Hydro's done lots of landscaping, planting trees, stuff to help the aquatic environment downstream of the dams etc. All admit to having made a bit of a mess in the past and have done what's practical to fix things up.

But not forestry. They just keep on making as much mess as they like turning the wilderness into plantation monocultures that are good for nothing but another crop of trees. You can't even go for a decent walk in one. And the damn things only have the species of tree they want and don't grow without chemicals due to the lack of biodiversity. Hence the spraying.

Forestry is also the only industry I know of that intentionally trashes high value resources and aims for the lowest grade. Smelters, power staions, mills of every kind always the aim is to extract as much product from the resource as possible and hundreds of millions of $ are invested to do it. Not with forestry though, if it's high grade then they smash it up to downgrade it so they can chip it...

Smurf's solution? Build the Bell Bay pulp mill for sure. And cease forever the export of unprocessed woodchips, logs or anything else that hasn't been valued added within the state. That will both rein in the out of control forestry industry (to the point that it can rely largely on plantations) and actually create some useful wealth from the mill in the process. Trouble is, the damn greens are too blinkered fighting the mill and fail to realise that if successful then it's look out forests here comes another scale up.

As for the Devils, let's just say the disease was first noted in the NE and that forestry is really the only activity that happens there unless you count a few farms, a century old hydro scheme and some disused mines. Nothing proven but if it's chemicals then the source would be either forestry or farming rather than heavy industry.

One criticism of forestry that I don't agree with though is about effects on rainfall. It might stack up as an argument in the eastern parts of the state but it doesn't stack up on the West Coast given the westerly wind direction. Nor is it likely to have caused a drought across most of the country. That argument is just a convenient one that isn't scientifically based IMO and I'll back forestry on that one dispite my overall dislike of the industry.

As for me, someone's getting me a few tonnes of firewood from one of the piles before it gets incinerated. I figure it's better for me to burn it for heat thus saving some other resource (ie electricity) since the wood is going to get burnt anyway. 4 tonnes should turn up in the driveway about Easter time in return for some $.

explod said:

Walking half a kilometer to the shops to get groceries instead of taking the car saves (envioronmentally) the equivalent of about 500 plastic shopping bags. The big one for global warming is to leave the car in the garage.

Click to expand...

My personal expectation looking at how people acually go about their lives (as opposed to what is theoretically possible) is that banning plastic bags will lead to an increase in car use.

Think about it and I doubt you'll come to any other conclusion. That impulse purchase at lunchtime, that bit of "if we get time" shopping on the way back from a walk. Nobody's likely to carry a bag for these things - they'll come back later with the car instead.

Even for me personally, I have to say that if I've got to carry around a load of bulky bags for an hour whilst going for a walk when I might not need them all then I just won't bother. Walk home and drive back to the shop instead is far easier in the real world and it's what most will do.

That's not to say we should waste plastic but properly disposed of in landfill the bags aren't really a problem anyway (plastic is intentionally added to landfills as a sealant and stabiliser - it's one of the better things to have in there). End result if we ban them is likely to be more CO2 IMO.

2020hindsight said:

Tassie Devils problems.

Click to expand...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/02/2152839.htm

I'm involved at work in a project relating to the Devils. Actually, there are quite a lot of different groups doing things now.

No prizes for guessing that the one I'm involved with is an "electric" solution to the problem. But it's all pretty safe (hopefully) and to be honest looks like the only chance of creating a segregated wild population of healthy Devils.

Giving them an electric shock has been tried before as a means of creating isolated populations but it doesn't work. They don't react like a human and back off and run away. They just keep jumping up and down shocking themselves on the electrified mat rather than backing off as was expected. A nice and simple idea but it doesn't work.

I can't say much about what has been found to work for reasons of confidentiality but what I will say is that this is a means of keeping the Devils "fenced in" to a large area and it's a non-shock technical solution connected to the grid. It also makes use of existing engineering structures built for other purposes.

This will be used to create a non-captive separate population of disease free Devils if all goes to plan. Since these devils won't be able to go within 25m or so of any Devils outside the area that should keep the disease away (hopefully) thus maintaining a decent number of healthy Devils that can be used to breed from.

Smurf1976 said:

Giving them an electric shock has been tried before as a means of creating isolated populations but it doesn't work. They don't react like a human and back off and run away. They just keep jumping up and down shocking themselves on the electrified mat rather than backing off as was expected.

Click to expand...

well I've learnt something today..
Tassie Devils are sado masochists

Sado masochism means never having to say you're sorry, btw .
Good luck with it.

PS kinda on thread mods, - global warming - critters - etcetc

PS THink like the taser manufacturers - try 100kV maybe - then 200 etc .

explod said:

Walking half a kilometer to the shops to get groceries instead of taking the car saves (envioronmentally) the equivalent of about 500 plastic shopping bags. The big one for global warming is to leave the car in the garage.

Can we start to get this message across or is it the too hard basket. Don't get me wrong, I am against the plastic bags also.

Click to expand...

I saw some reserch that pointed out that because of our energy intensive farming and food prcessing industries,... If you do walk to the shops then it will release more carbon from the calories you have to eat than you would have had to put in your fuel tank.

Smurf1976 said:

Giving them an electric shock has been tried before as a means of creating isolated populations but it doesn't work. They don't react like a human and back off and run away. They just keep jumping up and down shocking themselves on the electrified mat rather than backing off as was expected. A nice and simple idea but it doesn't work.

Click to expand...

I should point out that this was proper research in a controlled manner in relation to establishing a "safe" diesease free population of devils. It wasn't a backyard experiment etc and didn't cause harm to the devils involved.

wayneL said:

FYI

Central China is having the coldest and snowiest winter in decades.

...and we had a few snowflakes in Cheltenham today... proper snow forecast for tommorrow.

I'm firing up the Hummer to see if I can warm things up a bit.

Click to expand...

It worked! Stopped the snow just 10 miles north of Chelt.

Tysonboss1 said:

I saw some reserch that pointed out that because of our energy intensive farming and food prcessing industries,... If you do walk to the shops then it will release more carbon from the calories you have to eat than you would have had to put in your fuel tank.

Click to expand...

Yep, and agree with all the following posts. The plastic bags, the walking, whatever we do the situation will in my view change little.

What can we do to change attititudes towards the big issues/ cars versus public transport/ coal versus wind, wave, thermal. population control and reduction.

These mayl be the physical answers, but the biggest question ..WHAT ACTION CAN WE TAKE TO BEGIN TO SHAPE ACCEPTANCE OF LETTING GO OF THE CONSUMER INSTINCT.

First obvious would be education leading to change in government direction..maybe????

wayneL said:

It worked! Stopped the snow just 10 miles north of Chelt.

Click to expand...

Lol -wayne -OK you can stop now then !

Smurf1976 said:

I should point out that this was proper research in a controlled manner in relation to establishing a "safe" diesease free population of devils. It wasn't a backyard experiment etc and didn't cause harm to the devils involved.

Click to expand...

Lol - hey Smurf - I don't think we were about to accuse you of trying to electrocute em

explod said:

Yep, and agree with all the following posts. The plastic bags, the walking, whatever we do the situation will in my view change little.

What can we do to change attititudes towards the big issues/ cars versus public transport/ coal versus wind, wave, thermal. population control and reduction.

These mayl be the physical answers, but the biggest question ..WHAT ACTION CAN WE TAKE TO BEGIN TO SHAPE ACCEPTANCE OF LETTING GO OF THE CONSUMER INSTINCT.

First obvious would be education leading to change in government direction..maybe????

Click to expand...

jese explod spot on - education about the environment is so important - some schools go there, some are too busy stopping the boys sticking pencils and things into the goirls - ..

And on the subject of setting an example as a nation etc
Aus is getting there IMO. - at least we're admitting there's a problem.
and whether it's CO2 or smog or plastic bags or polystyrene or planting trees or dioxins or etcetc - we're becoming aware that the planet is dying around us. The ozone layer problems were fixed by quick decisive intervention for instance.

But If I were the Mother of Nature
And my world was a breaking shell
and someone was pouring black oil on my birds
and poisoning slowly the well
and deserts were growing like wildfire
and wildfres were burning like hell
I'd be just a tiddy wee bit concerned
and I'd probbly opt to sell.....

or make a new pact to clean up my act
- this dome, my home, where I love to roam-
and help to make patient well.

2020hindsight said:

Lol - hey Smurf - I don't think we were about to accuse you of trying to electrocute em

Click to expand...

Thank heavens.

I'd be worried for their future if it depended on being electrocuted judging by the headline on the Mercury today. Yep, it's about the drought, climate change and power shortages.

It's a tad premature though - there's still quite a few rabbits left to pull out of the Hydro's hat yet before I get that cold bath - but it will soften the public up for some of the more drastic ways to keep the system going.

And yes, the article does blame climate change as do, perhaps surprisingly, the Liberals.

2020hindsight said:

Surely the Forestry (with of course the Premier's full backing) are bordering on envoironmental vandalism there?

Click to expand...

Oh heck. Or should that be HEC. It seems Premier Lennon might just have a bit more power, political, electric and it seems spiritual, than we thought.

"We need rain and we need it bad..." that was him yesterday.

And today? Well let's just say it's raining...

Smurf1976 said:

Oh heck. Or should that be HEC. It seems Premier Lennon might just have a bit more power, political, electric and it seems spiritual, than we thought.

"We need rain and we need it bad..." that was him yesterday.

And today? Well let's just say it's raining...

Click to expand...

lol - straight talk! - SPOKEN LOUD AND CLEAR ! - THATs what God likes
(He's getting a bit hard of hearing maybe )

PS as mentioned before, timing has a lot to do with outcome of rain dance.

Well I'm told that the east coast of Tas is pretty much flooded now. Thanks Paul. Next time perhaps specify where we want the rain to fall - preferably into the storages that need it and not flooding out coastal towns.

Throw em in Jail, I agree, Send the whalers with them

Jail politicians who ignore climate science: Suzuki

David Suzuki has called for political leaders to be thrown in jail for ignoring the science behind climate change.

At a Montreal conference last Thursday, the prominent scientist, broadcaster and Order of Canada recipient exhorted a packed house of 600 to hold politicians legally accountable for what he called an intergenerational crime. Though a spokesman said yesterday the call for imprisonment was not meant to be taken literally, Dr. Suzuki reportedly made similar remarks in an address at the University of Toronto last month.

The proposal has lit up many conservative blogs since it was first reported by the McGill Daily on Monday.

Addressing the McGill Business Conference on Sustainability, hosted by the Faculty of Management, Dr. Suzuki's wide-ranging speech warned against favouring the economy to the detriment of the ecology -- the tarsands in Northern Alberta being his prime example.

"You have lived your entire lives in a completely unsustainable period," he told students and fans. "You all think growth and [climate] change is normal. It's not."

Click to expand...

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_popular/story.html?id=290513