Hi barney,barney said:Point taken Mag, from my perspective, I have no knowledge to offer re zinc etc. other than what I read from these "analysts", and I would hope that since they are writing for "Basemetal's" site, they should hopefully carry some creedence (certainly more than I have) ...... My main reason for quoting their slightly "negative" slant was to give a balance re the continuing "over-positive" position of zinc often touted ....... I for one got caught in that euphoria just prior to the last "correction" and did my dough yet againIt was actually a good wake up call, cause I've been doing well since (The old saying ..... Don't fall in love with a stock holds true) Anyway, that was my motivation for posting those reports.... to keep other "punters" balanced on their thinking, and not just accept that zinc, or any other metal, will continue up exponentially ............. Hope that makes the posts seem more appropriate...... All the best, Barney.
Hello Rederob,rederob said:True to form, when zinc went into backwardation at a price that made delivering into spot a more desirable position than holding inventory, LME (in recent weeks) has began to receive inflows of metal on a more regular basis than anytime in the past year. This trend will continue, as backwardation offers a good price premium to those chancing their arm with any "spare" metal.
...
"Destocking" zinc is all good and well if you believe you can turn the market around. Note that the Chinese have achieved this through the intervention of the SRB in the global copper market. And the Chinese are presently trying the same for zinc except they do not have a strategic reserve to rely on - just some short term capacity to deliver some excess metal to spot.
...
In relation to the USD, good point.
Don't know the answer.
If one were to rely on "trends", then the USD has further to fall.
So will the trend of continuing higher commodity prices match the ongoing inverse relationship?
And if not, at what price point of the USD will the relationship end?
Magdoran said:Hi barney,
Actually my comment was not specifically directed at your post. I think when I posted my general request for more rigour I hadn’t read your post…
I am genuinely interested in considering well thought out FA views on Zinc as I am a believer in factoring in fundamentals into my technical analysis. Sounds odd, but F/A can be helpful at times.
Hence my request for more in depth comments than some of the linked commentaries which I felt were fairly threadbare when you examined them (although I appreciate Rederob posting up the recent links and will follow them up in due course).
I also don’t have a problem with negatively slanted comments if they are well thought out, and marshal their thoughts with some rigour.
Anyway, good to hear you’re having a good run!
Regards,
Magdoran
rederob said:Magdoran
I will try to be brief as I am mixing real (paid) work with the pleasure of cricket in the background.
Backwardation:
I only concentrate on the difference between spot and 3 month forward; the spreads further out are for traders to deal with rather than investors.
"Balance" is the natural tendency of a commodity market, and in this balanced market a warehouse profits by buying (holding) inventory today at a price cheaper than it will be sold down the track - or the warehouse goes broke. This natural tendency is called "contango".
As supplies start to leave the warehouse quicker than it is replenished the balance obviously changes and the warehouse has to profit; doing so by altering the price mix so that immediate departures are priced higher than future departures. This latter condition of a tight market is called "backwardation", I think because it literally represents a position that is "backward" to the norm, although there might be a more technical explanation.
By tracking the rate of change of spot to 3 month forward you get a good feel for market tightness (or otherwise). And when you map this against inventory, and corroborate it with global trends you can get a good idea about probable future price movements.
I think anyone trying to just use one or two indicators and hoping for a quick fire solution to making a million is living in a fool's paradise: A holistic approach is essential.
While wavepicker might trust his charts, I can glean a great deal from the trend in spot:futures but do not consider it definitive.
In relation to zinc at present, if the sentiment had changed considerably and quickly we could surmise that market players had thrown in the towel: They clearly have not.
Moreover, the natural tendency of a market going into high backwardation is to attract "spare" metal back into LME warehouses, and this has now happened for zinc: Consider it normative for now.
If we look down the track, and assume nickel to be a year or so ahead of zinc in relation to the "natural" tendencies of commodity markets in tight supply, we will find that backwardations become less relevant, albeit entrenched: The reality is that there is no "spare" metal (nickel) and LME becomes the determinant of ongoing price action by closely examining the volume and location of daily flows of metal.
Magdoran, the specific matter of long dated futures being considerably lower certainly does reflect the present view that there is an expectation that prices will be lower. However, the reality and the expectation bear little resemblance: You can confirm this by finding the forward prices published 12 months ago, 15 months ago, etc - we are not in territory that was vaguely contemplated back then.
Currency Impact:
Seriously, way out of my depth!
My observations of global markets over recent years suggest that the USD is going to continue to decline for years to come.
Increasing Chinese trade with eurozone nations does suggest that currency diversification is encouraged, and I believe this will continue to favour an appreciation of the euro over the greenback.
I really can't see what can save the greenback, and would be grateful for contrary views.
I believe that in time our respective dollars will be at parity, and would not have a clue how long it will take, although I suspect more than 3 years would be needed.
Sorry that I am really not able to give any useful response to your detailed questions in this area.
Although, it is very interesting to note the clear inverse relationship between the greenback and commodity prices.
If I ever get a sense that this will break down, I hope I remember to post on it: The reality is that I expect it to continue for the time being and it remains a reason why I continue to be more bullish than not!
US slowdown:
I think it was the BHP thread where I commented more at length. I regard the US as relevant to our global view and global trends. But I regard US relevance as decreasing while Asian relevance increases, particularly in relation to commodities.
Perhaps more importantly I believe we need to acknowledge the growing influence of middle classes in BRIC nations, while at the same time we have Japan and Europe in reasonably sound economic shape.
Can you think of a better time for the US to suffer a slowdown?
Hedging (and in part reply to Barney):
A "hedge" is most simply described as a product that allows a buyer to exercise some future right in order to achieve a degree of financial protection.
The main winners with hedges are the writers of the protection rather than the buyers; a bit like life insurance!
When commodity prices surge, one needs to be on the biggest producers of metals that are selling them into the market without encumbrance.
That's because hedges don't have the capacity to contemplate price surges from bull markets.
Hedges that are below prevailing delivery rates can cost companies millions (perhaps billions in the case of Barrick gold) in foregone revenue.
Phelps Dodge incurred a half billion cost on its "hedges" in the second quarter 2006 alone via contracts set at half the prevailing spot price.
Some recent examples of hedging contracts that have killed companies are the gold miners Croesus and Sons of Gwalia.
Hedges are entered into for a variety of reasons. For new players turning from explorer to producer - who need to borrow money - it is often a requirement that a proportion of production is locked in to a forward price to ensure the lender is repaid.
In some cases a producer might want to have the peace of mind that a proportion of production will give a sound future return and lock in what they believe to be a beneficial price. They tell shareholders this is a good deal, too!
In other cases a company is approached by a finance institution with complex derivative products or a complex cocktail that defies breaking down by even a good accountant, particularly as maturity dates may overlap for different types of products.
A good business will expose itself to the market and compete on merit. That is, it knows its products are world class and its costs are at the lower end of the industry benchmark.
rederob said:Barney
ZFX are unhedged.
If they did begin to hedge, it may reflect their view that prices might fall.
If they hedged at near market spot rates the share price might have some degree of protection.
However, if the overwhelming evidence was that longer term the zinc prices would remain lower, then nothing will save the share price.
That said, companies with so much free cash flow have other avenues to consider such as buying into ventures that might ameliorate their zinc position, via diversification into another trending market.
Yes, companies that have hedged their bets on the losing side during this bull market have shot themselves in the foot.
Read what SMY are now trying to do to get their hedge exposure reduced - after announcing how happy they previously were to have locked in such good future prices.
I am not sure if BHP "hedged" their uranium prices. They may simply have entered into very long term contracts that did not give them much opportunity to take advantage of future upside.
Unlike PDN which appears to have adopted some form of delivery price that is present-market-price related.
A local gold miner that has done OK recently is Equigold, having managed to lock in some forward delivery when the price spiked early this year: By delivering into some spot and hedges they have managed to receive slightly better than average spot prices.
If you are astute, when the commodity bull collapses, hunt for the most heavily hedged producer and buy into their equities when spot prices near their hedge prices. These companies will "bounce" because their bottom line will not suffer to their extent of their industry peers.
barney said:Thanks Red, Some good info there as always ............ Just a quick follow up .... Is it "public" knowledge when a Co. "hedges", or is that kind of info slow to "hit the streets" so to speak. Thanks.
imajica said:with ZFX and KZL approaching fair value - people are looking for emerging companies that are relatively cheap. I believe that INL (the only new zinc production this year - coupled with their patented technology) will surge in 2007!
imajica said:with ZFX and KZL approaching fair value - people are looking for emerging companies that are relatively cheap. I believe that INL (the only new zinc production this year - coupled with their patented technology) will surge in 2007!
Thanks rederob,rederob said:Magdoran
I will try to be brief as I am mixing real (paid) work with the pleasure of cricket in the background.
Backwardation:
I only concentrate on the difference between spot and 3 month forward; the spreads further out are for traders to deal with rather than investors.
"Balance" is the natural tendency of a commodity market, and in this balanced market a warehouse profits by buying (holding) inventory today at a price cheaper than it will be sold down the track - or the warehouse goes broke. This natural tendency is called "contango".
As supplies start to leave the warehouse quicker than it is replenished the balance obviously changes and the warehouse has to profit; doing so by altering the price mix so that immediate departures are priced higher than future departures. This latter condition of a tight market is called "backwardation", I think because it literally represents a position that is "backward" to the norm, although there might be a more technical explanation.
By tracking the rate of change of spot to 3 month forward you get a good feel for market tightness (or otherwise). And when you map this against inventory, and corroborate it with global trends you can get a good idea about probable future price movements.
I think anyone trying to just use one or two indicators and hoping for a quick fire solution to making a million is living in a fool's paradise: A holistic approach is essential.
While wavepicker might trust his charts, I can glean a great deal from the trend in spot:futures but do not consider it definitive.
In relation to zinc at present, if the sentiment had changed considerably and quickly we could surmise that market players had thrown in the towel: They clearly have not.
Moreover, the natural tendency of a market going into high backwardation is to attract "spare" metal back into LME warehouses, and this has now happened for zinc: Consider it normative for now.
If we look down the track, and assume nickel to be a year or so ahead of zinc in relation to the "natural" tendencies of commodity markets in tight supply, we will find that backwardations become less relevant, albeit entrenched: The reality is that there is no "spare" metal (nickel) and LME becomes the determinant of ongoing price action by closely examining the volume and location of daily flows of metal.
Magdoran, the specific matter of long dated futures being considerably lower certainly does reflect the present view that there is an expectation that prices will be lower. However, the reality and the expectation bear little resemblance: You can confirm this by finding the forward prices published 12 months ago, 15 months ago, etc - we are not in territory that was vaguely contemplated back then.
Currency Impact:
Seriously, way out of my depth!
My observations of global markets over recent years suggest that the USD is going to continue to decline for years to come.
Increasing Chinese trade with eurozone nations does suggest that currency diversification is encouraged, and I believe this will continue to favour an appreciation of the euro over the greenback.
I really can't see what can save the greenback, and would be grateful for contrary views.
I believe that in time our respective dollars will be at parity, and would not have a clue how long it will take, although I suspect more than 3 years would be needed.
Sorry that I am really not able to give any useful response to your detailed questions in this area.
Although, it is very interesting to note the clear inverse relationship between the greenback and commodity prices.
If I ever get a sense that this will break down, I hope I remember to post on it: The reality is that I expect it to continue for the time being and it remains a reason why I continue to be more bullish than not!
US slowdown:
I think it was the BHP thread where I commented more at length. I regard the US as relevant to our global view and global trends. But I regard US relevance as decreasing while Asian relevance increases, particularly in relation to commodities.
Perhaps more importantly I believe we need to acknowledge the growing influence of middle classes in BRIC nations, while at the same time we have Japan and Europe in reasonably sound economic shape.
Can you think of a better time for the US to suffer a slowdown?
Hedging (and in part reply to Barney):
A "hedge" is most simply described as a product that allows a buyer to exercise some future right in order to achieve a degree of financial protection.
The main winners with hedges are the writers of the protection rather than the buyers; a bit like life insurance!
When commodity prices surge, one needs to be on the biggest producers of metals that are selling them into the market without encumbrance.
That's because hedges don't have the capacity to contemplate price surges from bull markets.
Hedges that are below prevailing delivery rates can cost companies millions (perhaps billions in the case of Barrick gold) in foregone revenue.
Phelps Dodge incurred a half billion cost on its "hedges" in the second quarter 2006 alone via contracts set at half the prevailing spot price.
Some recent examples of hedging contracts that have killed companies are the gold miners Croesus and Sons of Gwalia.
Hedges are entered into for a variety of reasons. For new players turning from explorer to producer - who need to borrow money - it is often a requirement that a proportion of production is locked in to a forward price to ensure the lender is repaid.
In some cases a producer might want to have the peace of mind that a proportion of production will give a sound future return and lock in what they believe to be a beneficial price. They tell shareholders this is a good deal, too!
In other cases a company is approached by a finance institution with complex derivative products or a complex cocktail that defies breaking down by even a good accountant, particularly as maturity dates may overlap for different types of products.
A good business will expose itself to the market and compete on merit. That is, it knows its products are world class and its costs are at the lower end of the industry benchmark.
MagdoranMagdoran said:Thanks rederob,
That is an interesting interpretation of backwardation. I follow crude oil futures a lot, and noticed the prices were contango during the recent correction in crude, where the spot prices continued to fall noticeably while the contracts were contango.
Oddly I thought backwardation was supposed to signal that the market perceived that there is a shortage of the underlying commodity. However, through recent observation I have found both conditions with many commodities often did not reflect the price action of the spot market.
My question in part is along this line of thinking that the backwardation in Zinc seemed odd to me. Not being a specialised Fundamental analyst in the Zinc market, I was hoping to glean some more about the nuances of the futures contracts behaviour, and tie it in with the broader market supply and demand imperatives.
I still don’t understand what is driving the Zinc price other than a rudimentary understanding of steel demand/construction, and other industrial uses, and the international context from a broad macro economic view point.
While it’s clear that there is hedging and speculation going on, what do you think the mix is currently – more speculative, or more hedging going on, or a balance of the two. What is the consequence of this mix given an Ameranth scenario?
Re your comments on US influence in Asia, I am currently more persuaded by this line of thinking, seeing a more diversified currency/economic outlook emerging.
Regarding hedging, as you know this is a field I am interested in, so I was curious as to how your understanding of hedging techniques, and the broader use of these techniques in the commodities you are involved in altered your approach. Essentially, what did you glean, and how did this reshape your analysis?
Just out of interest, do you know which zinc producers here are hedged? While I’d love to find the time to do my own research, I’m not an F/A player, and would appreciate any suggestions you have.
Re the USD, interesting viewpoint. I have a variety of models in play here. There seems to be an orthodox view with many of the Australian currency analysts that most do not expect the AUD to climb much higher than 0.80 US, and that it is likely that the AUD will swing back lower in the near future.
Long term movement of the US currency down is certainly plausible if the current global economic structures continue in the current direction.
Once again, thanks for making the effort, much appreciated.
Regards
Magdoran
Myra Saefong's Commodities Corner
Zinc supplies are quietly running out
By Myra P. Saefong, MarketWatch
Last Update: 7:49 AM ET Dec 15, 2006
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- It's zinc's turn to shine.
Spot prices for high-grade zinc have more than tripled on the London Metal Exchange in the last two years -- and the price rally won't likely end soon with demand for the industrial metal far outpacing supplies, analysts said.
After many years of languishing at low levels caused by abundant supplies, spot prices for high-grade zinc climbed to over $4,400 per metric ton as of Wednesday on the LME -- up almost 270% from 2004's levels.
That's quite a change for the metal that's mostly used to coat steel and to act as a rust inhibitor.
"Zinc has been perhaps the worst investment in major metals during the past several decades, which has resulted in significant underinvestment in exploration," said Dr. Harlan Meade, president and chief executive officer of both Pacifica Resources Ltd. (CAAX: news, chart, profile) and Yukon Zinc Corp. (CA:YZC: news, chart, profile).
"The addition of several large mines in the mid 1990s simply flooded the market with zinc," he said.
New zinc output, in part, was made possible because of byproduct credits such as copper and silver that sometimes provided enough added revenue to offset zinc prices that really weren't high enough to encourage exploration or development, he said.
Now the zinc market faces a supply deficit, "caused by the depletion of many of our large mines," Meade said.
Exacerbating the problem, China, "who dumped zinc on the market during the 1980s and 1990s, became a net importer of the metal in 2003 as the country's consumption took off," he said.
China's influence
Indeed, China's zinc demand has been "rising at an amazing rate," said Eric Coffin, co-editor of HardRockAnalyst.com, which offers publications focused on resource stocks.
He blamed "extremely high capital investment growth," much of which is centered on construction, for the increase in Chinese consumption, which climbed 35% between 2003 and 2005.
"Zinc is a pretty basic industrial material," said Lawrence Roulston, editor of Resource Opportunities. "Most consumers would not even be aware that they come in contact with it many times a day," he said, pointing out that a typical car uses about 22 pounds of zinc.
"Car makers will pay whatever they need to pay to get enough zinc to keep making cars," he said, and "an extra dollar on the zinc price will not reduce demand for cars."
Similarly, demand won't slow even if "couple of tens of bucks" is added to the cost of a new house because of the zinc used in galvanized steel for construction, he said.
The recent run in the zinc price has "demonstrated ... the critical shortage of metals supply coming from the mining industry," said Roulston. "There are many small new mines constantly being developed, but no big mines."
Meanwhile, "mines are constantly being shut down as the ore bodies are depleted, [so] the net result is that production has been flat at a time of rising demand," he said.
Overall, the zinc industry will "have a hard time at any price bringing on enough new supply to balance supply and demand in 2010 and thereafter," Meade said.
Eating up supply
Against that backdrop, warehouse stocks of zinc have been depleted.
On the LME, supplies were down to around 85,750 metric tons as of early December -- down from 450,000 a year ago and close to their lowest level since March 1991, according to Martin Hayes, a senior correspondent at London-based BaseMetals.com.
And inventories are "set to keep on falling," he said.
The supply deficit this year will likely be close to 300,000 metric tons, he said, with supply of 6.8 million metric tons not enough to satisfy 7.1 million metric tons of consumption.
rederob said:A more reliable chart to compare zinc against is that of copper a year ago, or of nickel, but certainly not one of gold.
These are commodities that zinc is paralleling on a "lagged" basis.
rederob said:However, I present my views on zinc based on fundamental drivers that are well in place and only likely to change in the medium term if there is a substantial change to global markets. Typically my successes are within an 80% probability range.
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