Your tax dollars at work

[dj_420]

Julia,
I`m not familiar with the American way of doing things,but from what I understand they can only stay on welfare for a certain amount of time and then they have to get a job,but from watching Judge Judy you get the impression that there`s lots of layers to their system ,which in the end leads to the same rorts that we see here.Again that is what I`ve learned through TV so probably not very accurate,but at the end of the day when you make money available to people who don`t have to work for it,it always seems to become too much of an attraction not to abuse.

Vouchers seem like a good idea though,they`re used for schools and such but again only for half of the amount,so kids still don`t get their uniforms or books which is what that half is meant to be kept aside for.

in america people are allowed welfare for one year of their lives, if they do not get work within that timeframe...tough. that is a great system, if people cannot be motivated to get a job then that is their own fault.

i think australia should take a tough stance on this also. abolish the pension, make work for the dole more strict, make getting welfare harder.

i hope everyone realises there is no welfare system in japan and they pay an income tax of what around 9%???

think about that for a minute. if we had no welfare system or a very limited one our income tax would be dramatically reduced. prob down to a rate of between 10-15%. most of the people on this forum would be in a higher tax bracket and IMO it is unfair the was the tax system is setup.

now saying this i work in a Job Network Member and half of the people on the system work "cashies" anyway. the other half are not motivated to get work and are more than happy to live on $380 per fortnight from the govt.

people think the system works, well as long as your happy handing over 45% of your wage in taxes then yeah it does work. completely unfair that people should be taxed to pay for some person sitting at home or punching all their money through the pokies.

i tell you it is more than banging your head against a brickwall. it is much much worse and anyone who has worked in this area will tell you so.

i could go on and on all day with examples of what happens. in the end it will be public outcry that makes a difference. instead we are far to subdued and happy to give away out money for other peoples addictions.

 

[happytrader]

I'd be interested to hear members' thoughts on this:

Three people sharing a caravan in a caravan park.
A woman in her 50's and her boyfriend, also in his 50's, both receiving a Disability Pension
The woman's son, 30, also receiving a Disability Pension, plus a Carer's Allowance for looking after his mother. He has schizophrenia.

Total fortnightly income for this household is $1800.

They use this almost entirely for internet gambling and then request access to food vouchers from a charity to provide their food.

Three adults living in a caravan sounds pretty miserable let alone one with a psych condition and the other disabled. I would have thought they would be high on the list for a housing commission home. Of course that is if they aren't in arrears with them.

Poor people are disabled in the way that they are passive and dependent and allow life to happen to them instead of being active participants.

Since they are in the minority and pretty invisible, I can't begrudge them afew bucks.


Cheers
Happytrader

 

[BradK]

in america people are allowed welfare for one year of their lives, if they do not get work within that timeframe...tough. that is a great system, if people cannot be motivated to get a job then that is their own fault.

God, give me strength. Yes, lets become more like America!!!!!

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that their civil society is model to uphold??????

Brad

 

[theasxgorilla]

in america people are allowed welfare for one year of their lives, if they do not get work within that timeframe...tough. that is a great system, if people cannot be motivated to get a job then that is their own fault.

i think australia should take a tough stance on this also. abolish the pension, make work for the dole more strict, make getting welfare harder.

i hope everyone realises there is no welfare system in japan and they pay an income tax of what around 9%???

I take it you've been to America and Japan? I take it that scumville is okay by you, as is living with mum and dad until you're 40??

You should perhaps consult the United Nations Human Development index:

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/

Perhaps you wonder why Norway is number 1, Australia is number 3 an Sweden is number 5, inspite of the taxes and welfare systems in those countries, and Japan and the US could only manage 7th and 8th. Or why low-tax Hong Kong is all the way down at 22?

There is far more to the equation than just tax rates and welfare. Australia is not perfect but on the global scale its actually pretty close. The good news is there IS room for improvement...things can still get better.

 

[visual]

And thanks to ACA we`ve just had the heart rending story of a struggling family who are forced to stay in a caravan park,in a cabin, who`ve been waiting for a housing commision house for eleven years.Seven kids later and a plasma television later they still can`t get a house or a job.Where did the money come from for the plasma tv.

Again no problem with deserving people getting a hands up,but why can`t these people be held responsable for their actions.

 

[theasxgorilla]

Where did the money come from for the plasma tv.

Well the AUD is up and they have come down a lot in price

 

[wayneL]

I take it you've been to America and Japan? I take it that scumville is okay by you, as is living with mum and dad until you're 40??

You should perhaps consult the United Nations Human Development index:

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/

Perhaps you wonder why Norway is number 1, Australia is number 3 an Sweden is number 5, inspite of the taxes and welfare systems in those countries, and Japan and the US could only manage 7th and 8th. Or why low-tax Hong Kong is all the way down at 22?

There is far more to the equation than just tax rates and welfare. Australia is not perfect but on the global scale its actually pretty close. The good news is there IS room for improvement...things can still get better.

Yes

As much as high tax really p!sses me off (or rather the senseless squander of public money) I would much prefer these countries mentioned than the USA any day of the week. Money wealth and low taxes are good, but what sort of society do we want?

Places like Japan have a strong homogeneous culture which basically precludes poor folks taking up mugging for a living, like what happens in the US.

I was raised in America, and believe me, we do not want to be like them. We've already gone too far down that path IMO.

 

[visual]

but what sort of society do we want?

Wayne,
what about a society that doesn`t rob Paul to pay Peter?

 

[wayneL]

but what sort of society do we want?

Wayne,
what about a society that doesn`t rob Paul to pay Peter?

Yep agree with that tenet, unless Peter can't earn money through disability, misfortune or whatever.

Unfortunately, in our dog eat dog multicultural society, Peter will just rob Paul anyway if he is not "entitled" to benefits.

Believe me, I'm very cynical about the whole welfare state thing, but I've lived the alternative. It's fine so long as fortune favours you. If something goes wrong, you are thrown to the dogs.

 

[visual]

Yep agree with that tenet, unless Peter can't earn money through disability, misfortune or whatever.

Unfortunately, in our dog eat dog multicultural society, Peter will just rob Paul anyway if he is not "entitled" to benefits.

Believe me, I'm very cynical about the whole welfare state thing, but I've lived the alternative. It's fine so long as fortune favours you. If something goes wrong, you are thrown to the dogs.

Oi careful with the racism,that`s my job remember :

:horse:
unless Peter can't earn money through disability, misfortune or whatever.
Never had a problem with the above,however I think it`s true to say that most of the money goes to those who actually rorts the system,without entitlement

 

[Buster]

Hey ASF'ers

I agree with those that look to the U.S welfare system and wish to avoid it here in OZ.. The US system is extremely harsh and cruel, certainly doesn't support much at all..

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a strong social safety net, and I don't mind paying Tax.. Hey, I lived in the US for a couple of years and have travelled extensively throughout the world.. our standard of living is well worth paying for.

However I certainly don't believe that welfare should be funding anything other than the necessities, not booze, not smokes, not gambling and not plasma TV's.. (I don't even have a Plasma yet!!)

Regards,

Buster

 

[Julia]

Thanks for interesting and varied responses.

I'm really happy for my tax dollars to go towards supporting those who really need assistance and would like to see some people get a lot more help than they do now, specifically people with a mental illness and those who are otherwise disabled. They are truly at the bottom of the heap and often not regarded by any authorities as even having a vote.

They live in these woeful caravan parks where they are abused in every way by the parasites around them, e.g. druggies etc, and are mostly so desperate for company they will lend their meagre amounts of money to anyone who asks, no matter how often you tell them not to do this.

But that is an entirely different matter from people with a questionable entitlement to a Disability Pension (sometimes these are granted just because the government doctor is in a good mood that day), who waste their benefits and then go asking for more in order to feed themselves or pay the rent.

Yes, there is a case for being sympathetic towards people whose lives are so bereft of meaning that the brief stimulation from a poker machine is the best they can hope for. But that doesn't in any way change their lives.
The suggestion of having something to do every day (government directed) is a good one - perhaps something a bit more meaningful than putting together cane baskets and taking them apart again - but something definite with an achieved outcome at the end of it.

I guess the trouble is with that sort of scheme is that it would take large resources to initiate and run and essentially no one cares enough.

 

[Julia]

I actually tried to do that to someone else,who worked with my husband,he showed off about how well he was doing on the pension,so upon ringing up I found myself being given the thrid degree about why I would want to dob this guy in!!!!!!

Visual, I'm really amazed to hear this. Centrelink makes quite a song and dance about encouraging the public to dob in abusers. I guess they have to make sure you are not just indulging in a personal vendetta for some reason.

 

[trinity]

Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnie View Post
I would`ve thought that its their business how to spend their money, although its sad ofcourse..
I think you're missing the point.. it's not thier money, it's ours that has been given to them to fullfill thier basic requirements of existing.. food, washing powder etc.. not for gambling!!

Just to sort of summarize the solutions we have proposed (pros & cons), given the premise that we are talking about people who abuse the system, and how to protect people who genuinely need the welfare payments.

1. vouchers, receipts - administrative nightmare
2. a "credit card" which can be used to pay landlord, food (not liquor), utilities - viable? something which you can't use to sign up to online gambling with
3. limit welfare to a year - unless person has real disability?

IMHO, we are perceived to be limiting their freedom if we control how they want to spend "their" money, however, I think that welfare-people have given up that freedom when they chose to become dependent on the dole anyways?

 

[Julia]

Julia... smash me in the head with a hammer so that I can become mentally disabled... then we can join our disability pensions together and live like royalty...

Just a tiny problem with that suggestion, Insider. I'd end up in jail for assault and you'd find a single DSP a bit hard to live on.

 

[disarray]

expand work for the dole. make compulsory military service for the long term unemployed. some structure and discipline that also provides training would work wonders for the aimless.

 

[visual]

Visual, I'm really amazed to hear this. Centrelink makes quite a song and dance about encouraging the public to dob in abusers. I guess they have to make sure you are not just indulging in a personal vendetta for some reason.

Julia,
I understand that,however I was basically informing them that this person claimed to be on a disability and was in fact working.It ultimately should have been up to them to check my claim out with the guy,instead from memory they didn`t even take down the address of the workplace that this guy was collecting his work from.Apparently being on a disability entitled him to work a certain number of hours and so they were good with that.The fact that he was lifting boxes,without any problems wasn`t even a problem as far as they were concerned,it was him who showed off about his disability and how much he was getting and it was him who would put his neck brace on and off to suit himself,and of course the cane always came out when he was finished loading the van.I didn`t even know him,I just didn`t think that he should`ve been so cocky about ripping off the system.

 

[visual]

Just a tiny problem with that suggestion, Insider. I'd end up in jail for assault and you'd find a single DSP a bit hard to live on.

Julia be positive,you`d have to assualt him many times before that happened,remember the judicial system works on re habilitation and second chances and third chances and fourth chances and last chances and now a suspended sentence after that, the benefit of the doubt,maybe because you were drunk and under stress about sharing the caravan with him,after that counselling and then oh for God sake off to jail with you,so I reckon you could get away with a few years of DSP.Who knows he might even win at the pokies and then you could both divvy up the winnings and go your separate ways.Unless of course he doesn`t tell you and runs off.In which case you could then simply go back to your life and no one would be none the wiser.

 

[Julia]

Julia be positive,you`d have to assualt him many times before that happened,remember the judicial system works on re habilitation and second chances and third chances and fourth chances and last chances and now a suspended sentence after that, the benefit of the doubt,maybe because you were drunk and under stress about sharing the caravan with him,after that counselling and then oh for God sake off to jail with you,so I reckon you could get away with a few years of DSP.Who knows he might even win at the pokies and then you could both divvy up the winnings and go your separate ways.Unless of course he doesn`t tell you and runs off.In which case you could then simply go back to your life and no one would be none the wiser.

Wow, Visual, such creativity! Sadly, you are probably pretty right in terms of the reality of our judicial system.
Still, with no offence to your helpful suggestions, I think I'll not pursue Insider's suggestions (or yours)!

 

[dj_420]

ok im not saying i want our country to be like the US, all im doing is comparing different social security systems.

99.9% of the people i have worked with do not have any motivation to get work, are more than happy to live of welfare, avoid any obligations to the Job Network Members and Centrelink, and will also endeavour to work "cash" jobs so they can obtain both centrelink benefits and extra cash in hand.

i suggest people who support the welfare system and cry out that it works go and work within it for a while and see if your attitude remains the same.

i however state that there are people who do need help such as disability, carer support etc. BUT for the whole system needs an overhaul.



all i stated was the system NEEDS to be tougher, tougher access, tougher rules, everything needs to be tightened down.

you do realise that if all the baby boomers retired onto the pension the system would completely crash, EXTRA taxes for the hardworking, that sounds like fun!