Why Religion?

motorway · 27 May 2009

Have not read all the thread

Things that tend to generate religion

Self awareness
esp of dreams

ability to identify agency
when a rock hits you, you look for who threw it

when a wind blows ?
When a storm rages ?

Also connection of death and Life
planting of seeds
eg corn

Able to realize the difference between
A Live Person and a Dead Body

Live Person breathes
with the last exhalation Death

breath = Soul stuff
When it leaves the body and does not come back
death ----connection to dreams... dream body

When you smash a person open
red stuff flows out person dies

The red stuff drys --- something essential evaporates

red stuff = spirit stuff

Life is breath / Soul
Life is Blood / Spirit

Spirit in a body is an agent
When gone agency gone

hmmm Bodies in dreams
Must be spirit/soul stuff

dream of dead parents children etc
dead animals

agency in world
what causes rain sunshine Thunder
must be same thing that is the creative principle in people

Breath /Soul
Blood / Spirit

Strong emotions cause nightmares
FEAR of place and events ,of strangeness

Evil spirits / Whole supernatural world
springs into being

gods and devils

All things have agency
Good and bad Fortune
Curses
etc

etc etc

And then evolution
utilizing such resource
social bonding
good and bad
censorship
inhibition ( no good eating oneself to death etc Taboos )

Good reasons for why religious ideas form
and once formed made use of and come under natural selection..

whatever provides fitness

motorway

PS none of the above means religion is false or true

motorway

disarray · 27 May 2009

motorway posting
insight in a haiku form
genius or nut?

jonojpsg · 27 May 2009

derty said:
You cannot use a document that proposes the existence of something as the proof of it's existence. The witnesses of Jesus's miracles are contained in the bible.

Can you provide some links to these completely separate documents that corroborate these miracles?

Also the benefit of doubt may be good enough for the courtroom, but science demands much more, it demands the elimination of doubt.

Sorry derty, I should explain that the Bible is actually a compendium of separate documents written by some 30+ authors over a time period of more than 1000 years. The fact that these all corroborate essentially the same story about Jesus is proof enough for me that it is true.

And I think we're getting heaps out of this thread - thanks kennas

Sith1s · 27 May 2009

jonojpsg said:
Sorry derty, I should explain that the Bible is actually a compendium of separate documents written by some 30+ authors over a time period of more than 1000 years. The fact that these all corroborate essentially the same story about Jesus is proof enough for me that it is true.

And I think we're getting heaps out of this thread - thanks kennas

Hey Jono,

I'm trying to understand how the ancient religions came up with their bibles and actually take the text written in them as gospel. (and this isn't personally directed at Christianity or you, but it's the main religion being discussed at the moment)

I mean sure there were 100's of witnesses for the "miracles" performed back then, but how backwards were people back then?

A couple of examples...

The world was still flat.
People actually believed in magic. (I mean we were still burning witches at the stake for practicing witchcraft until a couple of hundred years ago)

And regardless of the time frame, people exagurate stories, even today. Who lets the truth get in the way of a good story?

How can we take everything that these people wrote so long ago as true?

Once again, it's not an attack on Christianity or your beliefs because everyone is entitled to believe in what they like. I've always been curious why/how people believe what they do when (in my opinion) most religion is based on an ancient story.

Sean K · 27 May 2009

Not surprisingly this has developed into a conversation about The Religions of the Book, but let's not forget all those other isms out there. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc, as well as many indigenous and pagan religions/beliefs still practiced today such as those in the Andes and throughout Central America, and by Australian Aboriginals.

They all probably have a reason for coming into existance.

Are the gods worshipped by the Incas the same God who sporn JC? If not, why not I wonder.

Just a side point...carry on.

Sith1s · 27 May 2009

kennas said:
Not surprisingly this has developed into a conversation about The Religions of the Book, but let's not forget all those other isms out there. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc, as well as many indigenous and pagan religions/beliefs still practiced today such as those in the Andes and throughout Central America, and by Australian Aboriginals.

They all probably have a reason for coming into existance.

Are the gods worshipped by the Incas the same God who sporn JC? If not, why not I wonder.

Just a side point...carry on.

Kennas i think the main problem you will have in finding a more well rounded answer will be the limited sample of people here and the limited beliefs.

I think it would be fair to say that the main exposure to religion amongst the group here would be Christianity, which is why most of the discussion is directed towards that one religion.

In order to get a more well rounded answer you may have to seek discussion from the more travelled people (I haven't been out of Australia so i can't comment) who have had alot of exposure to other countries cultures.

(Still really enjoying the discussions and ideas though )

Garpal Gumnut · 27 May 2009

Sith1s said:
Then that must be it!

And to think the so called global warming problem could be solved by simply increasing the number of pirates around the world. I even have a graph so it must be true! : (going incredibly off topic)

Perhaps i should be posting in your climate change weather thread?

Both threads are very similar.

Climate change or weather.
Its a matter of belief.

We die and go somewhere else or we don't
Its a matter of belief

The godbotherers have their texts extrapolating forward.

The global warmeners have their computer models extrapolating forward.

Weather and the wonders of nature are intertwined.

One does not have to be religious to have a sense of timelessness of the world nor to have a moral compass.

Nor does one need to be a warmener to grow organic veggies, enjoy good food, drink and sex, and care about the environment in which one lives.

Perhaps we should shoot the messengers and start a new Religious/Warmening Church.

For want of a better word I'll call it Garpalchurch.

For a weekly donation of $50 per person or $40 per family, I the Chief Pastor of Garpalchurch will ensure all paid up members of the Church get to heaven, money back guarantee.

I will also ensure that the tides will not rise to wipe out all the mansions of the rich nor inundate the cabins of the poor, and that we will still have weather good and bad.Again a money back guarantee.

To join Garpalchurch please contact me.

gg

MS+Tradesim · 27 May 2009

Julia said:
Are we talking about "beliefs" in court? I don't think so. Witnesses are called upon to describe what they actually saw, i.e. to present facts. It doesn't go to their "beliefs" at all.

That's a simplistic reduction. Can you explain how a person might be able to describe a bare fact without it being filtered through their cognitive processes and biases? There is no such thing as a brute fact expressed by a person. There is only a perception of an event stored in some form and then recollected.

A witness's memory might be generally reliable but it is not just a regurgitator of facts.

MS+Tradesim · 27 May 2009

Sith1s said:
How can we take everything that these people wrote so long ago as true?

There are historigraphical tools and methods which are applied to artifacts from history. They allow one to form an opinion about what happened to a greater or lesser degree of confidence.

Sith1s · 27 May 2009

Garpal Gumnut said:
Both threads are very similar.

Climate change or weather.
Its a matter of belief.

We die and go somewhere else or we don't
Its a matter of belief

The godbotherers have their texts extrapolating forward.

The global warmeners have their computer models extrapolating forward.

Weather and the wonders of nature are intertwined.

One does not have to be religious to have a sense of timelessness of the world nor to have a moral compass.

Nor does one need to be a warmener to grow organic veggies, enjoy good food, drink and sex, and care about the environment in which one lives.

Perhaps we should shoot the messengers and start a new Religious/Warmening Church.

For want of a better word I'll call it Garpalchurch.

For a weekly donation of $50 per person or $40 per family, I the Chief Pastor of Garpalchurch will ensure all paid up members of the Church get to heaven, money back guarantee.

I will also ensure that the tides will not rise to wipe out all the mansions of the rich nor inundate the cabins of the poor, and that we will still have weather good and bad.Again a money back guarantee.

To join Garpalchurch please contact me.

gg

So long as you make every Friday a religious holiday I'm in. I'll then declare as this is a sacred day for me that I cannot work on my holy day. If the boss tries to deny it i'll cause a massive fuss and say they're discriminating against my religion! Sound familiar?

Garpal Gumnut · 27 May 2009

Garpal Gumnut said:
Both threads are very similar.

Climate change or weather.
Its a matter of belief.

We die and go somewhere else or we don't
Its a matter of belief

The godbotherers have their texts extrapolating forward.

The global warmeners have their computer models extrapolating forward.

Weather and the wonders of nature are intertwined.

One does not have to be religious to have a sense of timelessness of the world nor to have a moral compass.

Nor does one need to be a warmener to grow organic veggies, enjoy good food, drink and sex, and care about the environment in which one lives.

Perhaps we should shoot the messengers and start a new Religious/Warmening Church.

For want of a better word I'll call it Garpalchurch.

For a weekly donation of $50 per person or $40 per family, I the Chief Pastor of Garpalchurch will ensure all paid up members of the Church get to heaven, money back guarantee.

I will also ensure that the tides will not rise to wipe out all the mansions of the rich nor inundate the cabins of the poor, and that we will still have weather good and bad.Again a money back guarantee.

To join Garpalchurch please contact me.

gg

Sith1s said:
So long as you make every Friday a religious holiday I'm in. I'll then declare as this is a sacred day for me that I cannot work on my holy day. If the boss tries to deny it i'll cause a massive fuss and say they're discriminating against my religion! Sound familiar?

Sith1s,

May I ask you to close your eyes, you may leave your monitor on, but take your hands off the keyboard and place them on your knees, the right upon the right and the left upon the left.

Repeat after me.

" I Sith1s, agree to become the first bishop of Garpalchurch in the bishopric of ( put in where you live) and to uphold the tenets of Garpalchurch, the first being that henceforth all Fridays will be for the observance of Garpalchurch's sacred mission, it being a sin to work upon a Friday"

Then take your hands from your knees and place it upon your keyboard. You are now the first bishop of Garpalchurch.

Once we have a dozen members I'll apply for tax exempt staus.

gg

Struzball · 27 May 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
There are historigraphical tools and methods which are applied to artifacts from history. They allow one to form an opinion about what happened to a greater or lesser degree of confidence.

So when the evidence points against the bible.. (world is round, people evolved were not created) How can we take everything that these people wrote so long ago as true?

MS+Tradesim · 27 May 2009

Struzball said:
So when the evidence points against the bible.. (world is round, people evolved were not created) How can we take everything that these people wrote so long ago as true?

This is a complex question based on caricatured assumptions. Similar to expecting "yes" or "no" as a response to "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

For one, where did I claim that everything they wrote is true? And why would I proceed on the basis that everything in the bible must be factually true or false without respect for genre, culture, idiom, intent, etc?

I refer you back to my statement that you quoted. There are tools that allow one to form historical hypotheses.

Struzball · 27 May 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
This is a complex question based on caricatured assumptions. Similar to expecting "yes" or "no" as a response to "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

For one, where did I claim that everything they wrote is true? And why would I proceed on the basis that everything in the bible must be factually true or false without respect for genre, culture, idiom, intent, etc?

I refer you back to my statement that you quoted. There are tools that allow one to form historical hypotheses.

So to sum it up, you have faith. And I don't think any of us could argue with that (just wouldn't agree with it).

AlterEgo · 27 May 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
Some of us have. I have my beliefs based on research and experience. But I'm not going to enter a protracted debate here about philosophy of religion, epistemology, historiography and textual criticism. I'm not here to argue for any religious position. My more modest goal is to offer some balance in a topic which is more often marked by dogmatism on both sides.

Fair enough. All I'm trying to get across is that people shouldn't be mindless sheep believing everything they hear without question. I'm not just referring to religion, but every facet of our lives. We shouldn't automatically believe what our politicians tell us, what rumours our friends have heard, what ancient writing say, etc, without questioning.

AlterEgo · 27 May 2009

jonojpsg said:
Jesus did not make that claim without backing it up though - at the time there were plenty of eyewitnesses to his miracles which he referred to when claiming that he was the son of God. This is the whole basis for the Bible, the fact that there were eyewitness accounts of what happened, from a range of sources; and also that completely separate (both in time (over 1000 years!!!) and space) documents all consistently refer to Jesus and his miracles. Take that to any court today and ask the judge to rule on it

Well I was trying to remain objective in what I was saying and avoid taking sides, but that drivel is complete rubbish! Unfortunately we can’t interview the author(s) to find out:
1. If they actually saw the event with their own eyes
2. If they only heard about it (ie. a rumour they wrote as fact)
3. Was it never intended to be anything more that a work of fiction just to get across a particular point.
4. etc.

Virgin birth? No rational person would believe that. The rational explanation would be that she’d been knocked up, but wanted to hide the fact.

Rising from the dead? No rational person would believe that. The rational explanation would be that some people moved the body and others later invented an explanation for the body’s disappearance.

Anyone in modern times making those sorts of claims would be sent to the mental asylum! But because it’s from some old writings it becomes more mystical and therefore believable?? Imagine if Jesus was never born in those times, but was born in present times, say 20 years ago, would you believe his claims? I’d think not. The older some claims are the less accurate they are likely to be, not more accurate! Something doesn’t become more true and accurate the older it is! The older some story is the more inaccurate, exaggerated, modified, it’s likely to be.

There are many thousands of witnesses to UFO sightings, therefore they must be true, right? Many witness to voodoo magic, ghosts, clairvoyance, astrology, Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, etc, etc. So by your logic they must all be true!

AlterEgo · 27 May 2009

jonojpsg said:
Sorry derty, I should explain that the Bible is actually a compendium of separate documents written by some 30+ authors over a time period of more than 1000 years. The fact that these all corroborate essentially the same story about Jesus is proof enough for me that it is true.

And I think we're getting heaps out of this thread - thanks kennas

You can’t be serious! They don’t corroborate anything! They are the same story regurgitated over and over. Say someone today reads the Harry Potter story to his kids, that kid passes that story on to his kids, who passes it on to his kids, etc,….. over 1000’s of years. Some people 3000 years in the future may think the events actually happened, and start a religion based on it. Texts from many different countries, in different languages all speak of the same story, right, therefore they must have actually happened, right?

MS+Tradesim · 27 May 2009

Struzball said:
So to sum it up, you have faith. And I don't think any of us could argue with that (just wouldn't agree with it).

Back on topic...

"Why religion?" A reason is that it provides a meta-narrative and structure for a person's life, defining purpose and significance.

Sean K · 27 May 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
"Why religion?" A reason is that it provides a meta-narrative and structure for a person's life, defining purpose and significance.

Yes, this is a good one.

Structure provides people with a framework for simple existance. What should I do on a day to day basis.
A Purpose for existance. Why am I here? To serve God.
I am Significant. I did not evolve from pond scum, but am a direct descendant of Adam and Eve, and therefore God. The Earth is just 6m years old and I am related to all arround me. I am a significant part of the world.

Seems like some good reasons to believe.

jonojpsg · 27 May 2009

AlterEgo said:
Well I was trying to remain objective in what I was saying and avoid taking sides, but that drivel is complete rubbish! Unfortunately we can’t interview the author(s) to find out:
1. If they actually saw the event with their own eyes
2. If they only heard about it (ie. a rumour they wrote as fact)
3. Was it never intended to be anything more that a work of fiction just to get across a particular point.
4. etc.

Virgin birth? No rational person would believe that. The rational explanation would be that she’d been knocked up, but wanted to hide the fact.

Rising from the dead? No rational person would believe that. The rational explanation would be that some people moved the body and others later invented an explanation for the body’s disappearance.

Anyone in modern times making those sorts of claims would be sent to the mental asylum! But because it’s from some old writings it becomes more mystical and therefore believable?? Imagine if Jesus was never born in those times, but was born in present times, say 20 years ago, would you believe his claims? I’d think not. The older some claims are the less accurate they are likely to be, not more accurate! Something doesn’t become more true and accurate the older it is! The older some story is the more inaccurate, exaggerated, modified, it’s likely to be.

There are many thousands of witnesses to UFO sightings, therefore they must be true, right? Many witness to voodoo magic, ghosts, clairvoyance, astrology, Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, etc, etc. So by your logic they must all be true!

Let's get something straight here - if I, a rational reasonable human being, decide that on the basis of the evidence that I have available that God is real and created the universe, then it is obviously not insane or irrational to believe in the virgin birth or Jesus rising from the dead. If I believe in an all powerful God, then anything is possible for him. There is nothing irrational or unreasonable about believing in God.

Why Religion?

motorway

disarray

jonojpsg

Sith1s

Sean K

Moderator

Sith1s

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

MS+Tradesim

MS+Tradesim

Sith1s

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

Struzball

MS+Tradesim

Struzball

AlterEgo

AlterEgo

AlterEgo

MS+Tradesim

Sean K

Moderator

jonojpsg

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