Why do we hate them?

visual said:

What?
by the way,the mass graves of people saddam didnt like did`nt give you a clue?
The gassing of the Kurds,missed that little episode.

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Curious that Saddam was not on trial for the "mass graves" or "gassing of the Kurds".
Such obvious crimes!
A bit like the weapons of mass destruction that they found.
Oh, the Americans couldn't try Saddam for the Kurds incident because they would have had to expose how Saddam got hold of his material.

"An eight-year-old Senate report confirms that disease-producing and poisonous materials were exported, under U.S. government license, to Iraq from 1985 to 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war. Furthermore, the report adds, the American-exported materials were identical to microorganisms destroyed by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf War. The shipments were approved despite allegations that Saddam used biological weapons against Kurdish rebels and (according to the current official U.S. position) initiated war with Iran."

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Just have to wonder who the bigger villain has been for the last 50 years.

I seem to recall a scene from the movie "Ghandi" - where he is on one of his hungerstrikes, and pleading with his Hindi friends for moderation - and tells one man "I want you to find a Muslim orphan and raise him" - his friend reluctantly agrees "okay".... Meanwhile Ghandi finishes his sentence " as a Muslim".
For a skinny old dude, he sure could pack a punch. I think we need more Ghandis.

rederob said:

A bit like the weapons of mass destruction that they found.
Oh, the Americans couldn't try Saddam for the Kurds incident because they would have had to expose how Saddam got hold of his material.

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Heck mate - we know he had weapons of mass destruction at one time - we still have the receipts!

2020hindsight said:

Heck mate - we know he had weapons of mass destruction at one time - we still have the receipts!

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Genuinely funny comment, 2020 hindsight.

Julia

kennas said:

Just a radically different culture that doesn't fit with our own, and some of the values are quite different which leads us to think they are a bit strange.

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Kennas,

There are other very different cultures, e.g. think of the Buddhist monks.
We have nothing in common with them but we accept them. There are none that I know of living near me but if there were I certainly wouldn't feel uncomfortable about it. Why? Because in our wildest dreams, we don't think they are concealing bombs under their saffron robes or incendiary devices in their begging bowls.

So I think our discomfort with Muslims is not just because they are radically different as a culture, but more because some of them have demonstrated their capacity for extreme violence in the name of their religion, and therefore we feel threatened by them. And until we no longer fear that they will blow up the Harbour Bridge or blow themselves to pieces in our rail system, that suspicion and discomfort will remain.

Julia

visual said:

What?
by the way,the mass graves of people saddam didnt like did`nt give you a clue?
The gassing of the Kurds,missed that little episode.

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Yep your right, the Iraq is now a wonderful and peaceful democracy.
Pax an all Iraqis are just ungrateful buggas.


"Death is all around us these days, on our televisions, in our newspapers and on walls surrounding us everywhere. These black death notices announce the violent end of our relatives and friends."


Yup, big improvement.

Bloveld,
interesting,you highlighted a part thats neither here nor there,he has already highlighted in other interviews how people in Iraq could`nt ever have said what they really wanted in case they were arrested or spied on by the secret police.
In this interview he also presented opinions in a humourous way,if you can call it that,on what you could wear in Iraq and what you couldnt by memory also a women rights campainer was interviewed ,that to me showed that in Iraq as elsewhere the aspirations of people is to be free to do as they wish.Also you failed to mention that in Iraq men like to shave hence the dangerousness of being a barber .Which once again highlight the total rubbish being fed to us re- being a muslim! By the way just because now they can hear the bombs going off doesnt mean that things are all that different than before,people used to disappear without trace before.

visual said:

Bloveld,
interesting,you highlighted a part thats neither here nor there,he has already highlighted in other interviews how people in Iraq could`nt ever have said what they really wanted in case they were arrested or spied on by the secret police.
In this interview he also presented opinions in a humourous way,if you can call it that,on what you could wear in Iraq and what you couldnt by memory also a women rights campainer was interviewed ,that to me showed that in Iraq as elsewhere the aspirations of people is to be free to do as they wish.Also you failed to mention that in Iraq men like to shave hence the dangerousness of being a barber .Which once again highlight the total rubbish being fed to us re- being a muslim! By the way just because now they can hear the bombs going off doesnt mean that things are all that different than before,people used to disappear without trace before.

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visual
I have taken a collection and can happily advise that a fully paid 2 week holiday at the Baghdad Hilton is at your disposal.
There is a catch.
Each day you will need to post a photo of a different place you have visited in Iraq.
Just let me know when you are ready to head off and I will forward your tickets.
Pax Salam

You are judging all Muslims based on events in Iraq.
The events in Iraq have been caused partly by western interference.
Hence, I believe your judgement flawed.


Lets rewind a bit.
1. Saddam best buddy of west in Middle East
2. Saddam invades Kuwait
3. Saddam becomes sadistic dictator

Julia said:

Kennas,

There are other very different cultures, e.g. think of the Buddhist monks.
We have nothing in common with them but we accept them. There are none that I know of living near me but if there were I certainly wouldn't feel uncomfortable about it. Why? Because in our wildest dreams, we don't think they are concealing bombs under their saffron robes or incendiary devices in their begging bowls.

So I think our discomfort with Muslims is not just because they are radically different as a culture, but more because some of them have demonstrated their capacity for extreme violence in the name of their religion, and therefore we feel threatened by them. And until we no longer fear that they will blow up the Harbour Bridge or blow themselves to pieces in our rail system, that suspicion and discomfort will remain.

Julia

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Yeah, agree Julia. Different cultures need to still exhibit a reason to mistrust or hate. Nonetheless, wasn't long ago that Buddhists were considered very strange is this country by a large proportion of babyboombers who associated them with SE Asia radicals burning themselves in the street. For no other reason than they dressed in funny red clothes and had shaved heads. Nevermind they're the most 'peaceful' culture on the planet.

Still, we are only talking about a proportion of Muslims who are the radicals applying 500AD law to the current world. Many have moderated their stance on the rulings of the Koran to make sence in their own culture. For eg, the vast majority of Indonesians who call themselves 'Mulsims' only do so because they had to choose one of the 5 'approved' religions after the 1965 attempted coup by the Communists (although this is hotly debated). Most Indonesians are actually Animist, but it's not an approved religion because there is no God in Animism, which means they must be Commies!

Having said that, it only takes a few bad apples to bring down an entire culture or belief system, and perhaps the 'moderate' Muslims have to wake up and see that they are not actually following Islam but a brand new set of guidelines relevant to them in their day. Many Christains should do the same.

Bloveld said:

You are judging all Muslims based on events in Iraq.
The events in Iraq have been caused partly by western interference.
Hence, I believe your judgement flawed.


Lets rewind a bit.
1. Saddam best buddy of west in Middle East
2. Saddam invades Kuwait
3. Saddam becomes sadistic dictator

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Sadam Hussein massacred thousands of his own people, and ruled as a military dictator, due to the West?

The West supported Iraq against Iran because at the time it was the lesser of 2 evils. In hindsight, both countries leaderships should have been changed. Not saying by force, but by other means.

Bloveld said:

You are judging all Muslims based on events in Iraq.
The events in Iraq have been caused partly by western interference.
Hence, I believe your judgement flawed.


Lets rewind a bit.
1. Saddam best buddy of west in Middle East
2. Saddam invades Kuwait
3. Saddam becomes sadistic dictator

Click to expand...

Bloveld,
if you had followed this thread carefully you`d know that that is exactly what I`m not doing ,what I have been saying is that we are doing the normal everyday people of Iraq for example a disservice.
In Australia for example politicians, teachers,civic leaders are going out of their way to normalise a behaviour,that in muslim countries has to be enforced.For example the hijab why do they need religious police to make sure women are covered up.,surely if it was part of their religion they`d be wearing it without threat,instead it has to be enforced.
In Australia we are told muslim wear this abomination because that is the way to preserve their modesty,in case men should find them so sexually alluring that they would rape them on the spot,also the other way of presenting the hijab in Australia is as an equaliser again,if men can`t judge these women by how they look then they will be judged by their intelligence.
The question I have been asking is,why does our government our media our schools not educate these people that in Australia there are laws against men behaving like this,and if they encounter this type of behaviour then they have recourse to the law.Why aren`t these girls being taught that they are not responsable for how men behave.
Clearly in Iraq in Iran and other places people are working to change these backwards customs but if in the west we normalise and excuse these behaviours as part of their culture and not changeable eventually they will affect us.

So basically what I`m saying is these violent ignorant people are not representative of everyday muslims in muslim countries,dont forget most of these countries are run by despots and tyrants ,excusing violence especially against women based on religion just because you want to be seen as deep and meangful is putting power in the hands of the wrong people.

So basically what I`m saying is these violent ignorant people are not representative of everyday muslims in muslim countries,dont forget most of these countries are run by despots and tyrants ,excusing violence especially against women based on religion just because you want to be seen as deep and meangful is putting power in the hands of the wrong people.

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Always interesting to read.
Indonesia is the world's largest muslim nation and it's a democracy.
Even Iran has presidential elections, and Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Pakistan, and Turkey.
The list goes on and on.
Isn't it odd that G W Bush is elected by a lesser proportion of the population than most muslim nations!
Gotta love our western democracies.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/women_in_islam/muslim_women_and_tradition.htm

some interesting reading

Visual,

Any time I've seen Muslim women interviewed on TV, e.g. on "Insight" and similar programmes the moderator has specifically asked them if they feel obliged to wear the hijab or burkah for cultural or religious reasons, or because they would be ostracised by their community if they did not.

Without exception, they replied that they wore these garments because they wanted to and because it complemented their personal sense of modesty.

So why do you want to take that away from them?

Julia

another topic another thread..... but we're back on the Hijab!!!



Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Julia said:

Visual,

Any time I've seen Muslim women interviewed on TV, e.g. on "Insight" and similar programmes the moderator has specifically asked them if they feel obliged to wear the hijab or burkah for cultural or religious reasons, or because they would be ostracised by their community if they did not.

Without exception, they replied that they wore these garments because they wanted to and because it complemented their personal sense of modesty.

So why do you want to take that away from them?

Julia

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Julia,
Don`t get me wrong I don`t want to take that away from them,however what irks me is that they claim it as a religious duty. It isn`t,what annoys me about the issue is how the politically correct defend this right,which is mainly imposed. By the way if this right is to be defended why don`t the muslim men in Australia wear the hijab,basically the hijab is also for men,but you don`t see them wearing it. Why? It supposedly shows devoutness, but there you go,men on the other hand tell us that a beard is a must for islam,yet even on the news or documentaries even when the story doesn`t have anything to do with these customs you don`t see men with beards in the background,mainly.

The other thing Julia and I know I`m repeating myself,in countries where these rules are imposed on women,they are fighting them,however unsuccessfully,while the west in an attempt to appear politically correct are defending them,plus Julia it wasn`t that long ago that in our culture virginity was a determination for how good you were. We are constantly told that the hijab means devoutness,modesty,being a good mulim woman,my fear is that eventually not necessarily us in our age group but our girls are going to be facing an uphill battle back to where we are today. Will they make it?and what will be the cost? So what I want is the truth,why can`t the people who can influence public opinion say things as they are,why not educate people so that we can all make up our minds based on facts.

On this thread already Rafa has linked the lack of clothing women wear to our culture,basically unravelling,why link clothes or lack of it with women.

It was only very recently that our laws were changed to stop men using provocation as a defence to murder their wives or girlfriends. Once we allow women to be judged on how pieous or devoted they are we are allowing women to go backwards,be they muslim Christians Jews or whatever.

Plus I remember how when the burqa was imposed on women by the taliban,the media constantly bombarded us with information on how we could write letters to this ambassador,that ambassador,or the U.N,why the change,why is this garb now not imposed and religious why this acceptance,why the emergence of it in Australia after 9/11.
And not necessarily by refugees but by women clearly Australian,why?

Rafa said:

another topic another thread..... but we're back on the Hijab!!!



Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Rafa,the question is
Why do we hate them?
the link is about muslims,
how can you tell muslims apart from everyone else?by how they dress,by how the continually claim victimization,and by their claims that they are different from us,by their devoutness,so the myths that go with that have to be discussed.
And by those who link violence and muslims.

And Rafa I don`t hate muslims,but hate with a passion the myths that they are using to affect our lives.

visual said:

Bloveld,
if you had followed this thread carefully you`d know that that is exactly what I`m not doing ,what I have been saying is that we are doing the normal everyday people of Iraq for example a disservice.
In Australia for example politicians, teachers,civic leaders are going out of their way to normalise a behaviour,that in muslim countries has to be enforced.For example the hijab why do they need religious police to make sure women are covered up.,surely if it was part of their religion they`d be wearing it without threat,instead it has to be enforced.
In Australia we are told muslim wear this abomination because that is the way to preserve their modesty,in case men should find them so sexually alluring that they would rape them on the spot,also the other way of presenting the hijab in Australia is as an equaliser again,if men can`t judge these women by how they look then they will be judged by their intelligence.
The question I have been asking is,why does our government our media our schools not educate these people that in Australia there are laws against men behaving like this,and if they encounter this type of behaviour then they have recourse to the law.Why aren`t these girls being taught that they are not responsable for how men behave.
Clearly in Iraq in Iran and other places people are working to change these backwards customs but if in the west we normalise and excuse these behaviours as part of their culture and not changeable eventually they will affect us.

So basically what I`m saying is these violent ignorant people are not representative of everyday muslims in muslim countries,dont forget most of these countries are run by despots and tyrants ,excusing violence especially against women based on religion just because you want to be seen as deep and meangful is putting power in the hands of the wrong people.

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So you dont like the Islamic extremists.
Well why didnt you just say that?

So you dont believe in a minimum level of clothing to be worn in public?
You would be happy for people to walk around naked on a hot day?
Should people be allowed to have sex in public?

Bloveld said:

So you dont like the Islamic extremists.
Well why didnt you just say that?

So you dont believe in a minimum level of clothing to be worn in public?
You would be happy for people to walk around naked on a hot day?
Should people be allowed to have sex in public?

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bloveld,
your post is self explanatory and doesn`t deserve a reply,
then I thought perhaps it does,you are not one of those who believes that boys should be encouraged to sow their wild oats are you? (this of course is casual sex ,but not with the virginal bride ,that you can bring home to mum)