Why are some people poor?

Because they do not recognise opportuntity when it knocks. Some people are purely and simply not "go getters". They are conditioned to accept their lot in life and are happy to do so.

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gooner said:

True. But if everyone was a go-getter, there would be a lot of more miserable people around because not everyone can "get". There's not enough to go around.

Go getters are only successful because there are lots of non-go getters around

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Most can recognise opportunity
Few know what to do with it.
Even fewer actually do something.

Ive met many fast talking highly motivated people who have the comfort zone/know how of a Tibetan Monk in a brothel.

soem people are poor because of bad decisions. SOme have a spirit of poverty over them. some because of mental problems.
some because of bad decisions..... some because of a lack of discipline.....some have had a gambling problem and other addictions, such as lacoholism or drug abuse....lots of reasons

weatherbill said:

SOme have a spirit of poverty over them.

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That would encompass "the lord giveth and the lord taketh away" events.

Wysiwyg said:

That would encompass "the lord giveth and the lord taketh away" events.

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God loveth everybody


On the positive note, no matter who you are (rich or poor), no matter what you do (go get or not) you end up dead anyway.

Somebody might say: why bother?

weatherbill said:

some people are poor because of bad decisions.

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This is very true and I know this is not quite what you meant but I’m reminded of the story of a friend of mine who is a very decent person and was a gifted soccer player in his teens. He trained hard and his ability was such that he scored a scholarship to an elite private school and his future as a professional sportsman looked very promising.

One night, in his early twenties, he went to the assistance of a girl who was being harassed by a thug outside a nightclub. The thug decked him and proceeded to kick his head in. My friend suffered serious brain damage and is now permanently incapacitated, has a very limited concentration span, has lost coordination and is unable to even drive a car.

The girl fled from the scene and the thug escaped and was never brought to justice. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time and attempting to be chivalrous has condemned my friend to a life of relative poverty on a disability pension.

Has 'by choice', been considered?

Some people just don't want money to define their lives.

Some people also spend more money on there pets than on themselves ?

On another note it is expensive for Vet Medical bills for pets
From personal experience just the other day I had to take my dog for a scan
Cost $440.00

KK

many people remain poor because that's the way the system is designed. the primary means for this is the tax / welfare system.

around 50% of the federal budget goes on welfare - regardless of whether it is supporting worthy causes or scumbags, the simple fact remains it is the working man and woman who pays AT LEAST 35% of their wage IN DIRECT TAX, as well as myriad indirect taxes like stamp duties, GST, fees, levies, rates blah blah the list is endless. more than half of this money which has been extracted from productive workers goes to support those who cannot support themselves.

people often complain about middle class welfare, well it would be untirely unnecessary if the middle class weren't continually milked like some infinitely fertile cow to support the unproductive.

so to protect the weak, vulnerable, unfortunate and terminally lazy the fit and strong are perpetually hounded by various authorities for the fruits of their labours, holding them back and preventing them from being able to produce large families of fit and strong children. the end result of this is to bleed the productive classes so we can foster and support a burgeoning, useless underclass.

welfare is society's money sink wrapped in moralism (which makes it difficult to criticise), designed to keep productive workers from getting ahead so they cannot retire early, and so must remain as indentured cogs in the machine. if productive people were allowed to keep most of the money they earn they could retire early and then wouldn't be paying tax any more which the system finds intolerable.

now this is not to say welfare is bad, or should be stopped, and hundreds of enormous, emotional threads couldn't even begin to properly examine the whole financial, social and moral aspects of welfare such as who deserves it etc. however, regardless of intentions, this is the way the system has played out and i believe it is ultimately unsustainable.

to begin to address this issue, at the very least, EVERYONE MUST WORK. expand work for the dole, put old people and pensioners to work, we need child carers, phone answerers, tree planters, basket weavers, volunteers etc. and there is no excuse whatsoever for any person in our society to be sitting on their ass doing nothing while others are paying to support them.

the working poor need to be cut a break, preferably in tax. the non working poor need a kick up the ass and made to contribute to society. what to do with the aged (both active and infirm) is partly a moral question and needs discussion, but there are already plenty of them out there that wish to contribute but few, if any, programs exist to facilitate this.

many in this thread have been critical of those who spend lavishly, but it seems odd to criticise those who spend the money they earn on what they want, yet continue to support a welfare system that pours billions upon billions of unproductive dollars (obtained from someone else) down a black hole with little return to society. if people spend all their money on stupid crap then more power too them, as long as they realise its not for the rest of us to bail them out.

disarray said:

to begin to address this issue, at the very least, EVERYONE MUST WORK. expand work for the dole, put old people and pensioners to work, we need child carers, phone answerers, tree planters, basket weavers, volunteers etc. and there is no excuse whatsoever for any person in our society to be sitting on their ass doing nothing while others are paying to support them.

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I very much agree with this point. ( although not EVERYONE)

Having worked in the welfare system, you all would go bananas if you knew how many lazy bastards sit back with 4 or 5 kids and pull near the average wage.

( Every criminal and drug dealer is on welfare also, so they have visible means of support)

It was always my assertion that the amount of welfare you receive should be at least be partially linked to your contribution to society.

If you want to kick back and not contribute, get very little.

If you are genuine, put in the hours.

"Work for the dole" was very poorly thought thru, implemented, and understood.

I could identify a welfare cheat in literally a few minutes, but was never really allowed to target them, it was always "Mcdonalds" welfare..the same treatment for everyone...my ar$e

But dont target those who shouldnt be targeted, it is a waste of time, money, and emotion

awg said:

...

I could identify a welfare cheat in literally a few minutes, but was never really allowed to target them, it was always "Mcdonalds" welfare..the same treatment for everyone...my ar$e

...

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Isn't it possible to report them anonymously?

It amazes me how this thread seems to have boiled down to luck, or (missed) opportunities, or in broad terms ‘their own fault’.

Poor is a subjective term. So what is poor? Sure living off welfare might be a good indicator, yet I don’t know what most of you are basing your assumptions on.

There are people who have natural ability and talents, and then there are those who don’t. Those who have been given every opportunity and those who haven’t. Those who made their own luck and those who didn’t. Those who had it handed to them, and those who didn’t, the list goes on. There are those who can try to put their ‘lack’ of skills and abilities to good use, some fail and some don’t.

However, it’s amazing how people impose their own definitions of waste on others and hence label them as being poor because it’s their own fault.

I have noticed Foxtel as been deemed a waste. So what? If you do earn $500 a week and are responsible with all your money, and budget – as many of you seem to claim they mustn’t be – then Foxtel is maybe just the one little ‘luxury’ they can afford themselves. Assume $600 a yr for this little ‘luxury’ and it’s at the expense of what? Very little! It might add up to $6000 in 10 yrs, yet what will this have achieved? Nothing in real terms.

Where does the naivety of trying to get out of the cycle of poverty stop? Don’t buy that single cup of coffee each week? Don’t go to the movies once a month? Buy all clothes from the ‘op’ shop’? Everything that is purchased must be a home/no name brand?

Being poor is not a matter of being wasteful. Being poor is simply a state that some live in through no fault of their own, through no lack of not trying, and more to the point, generally they are not poor because they want to be.

This doesn’t detract from that there are most certainly those who are poor because they are lazy, bludgers, or just can’t be bothered, yet you can’t tar all with the same brush.

awg said:

I very much agree with this point. ( although not EVERYONE)

Having worked in the welfare system, you all would go bananas if you knew how many lazy bastards sit back with 4 or 5 kids and pull near the average wage.

( Every criminal and drug dealer is on welfare also, so they have visible means of support)

It was always my assertion that the amount of welfare you receive should be at least be partially linked to your contribution to society.

If you want to kick back and not contribute, get very little.

If you are genuine, put in the hours.

"Work for the dole" was very poorly thought thru, implemented, and understood.

I could identify a welfare cheat in literally a few minutes, but was never really allowed to target them, it was always "Mcdonalds" welfare..the same treatment for everyone...my ar$e

But dont target those who shouldnt be targeted, it is a waste of time, money, and emotion

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Good post, awg. Have seen all the same stuff and completely agree.

Chris 45, that's a very tragic story, and yes, people like that deserve our absolute support and compassion which, sadly, they seldom receive.

I fully support a decent welfare system but would like to see it more finely targeted. Probably to do this wouldn't be cost effective, so we go on supporting the bludgers and cheats along with those who really should be receiving much more than they do.

as a migrant, whose family lived in one room when we first arrived in australia, had no money for pretty much anything other than basic food this is a subject I have given a huge amount of thought to over the past 25 years.

1. people do indeed make bad choices. this can take many forms: buying a new car when really they don't need one, leveraging up their eyeballs for a house that is wayyyyy too big, having children they cannot hope to afford, general consumption on non essentials. I look at my family here and can say we drove 100 cars, had no tv for a decade, one school uniform etc just so we could manage our money. and we never ate junk food.
in effect, the majority of the urban poor blur the line between need and want: a tv is not a need, a new car is not a need, new clothes are not needs, junk foods are not needs. and lots of folk inbibe in habits that unsustainable eg drinking and smoking. if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

2. people fail to plan ahead. - they make one plan and expect that plan to work out. as we all know, a plan that cannot be changed is a bad plan.

3. luck has nothing to do with it. if you believe in luck as a mysical force you are kidding yourself. there is probability, there is opportunity, there is choice. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble but there is no 'luck'. luck is simply accounting for probability and strategising accordingly.

as you can see I am not very sypathetic, partly as a result of seeing lots of people waste opportunity, or not take full advantage of their circumstances, when given a boost by family, friends or existing social standing. having had nothing other than a single suitcase and far surpassing the yearly earnings of the vast bulk of the population, I can share from experience that choice is the key element in success: the choice to get educated, the choice not to get into lifestyle afflictions that are detrimental to success, the choice not to breed in adverse situations, and the choice to walk away from environments that do not line up with my future ambitions, the choice to create ever evolving financial plans suitable to current climates. the list is endless.

sorry for the lack of sympathy, I just can't feel sorry for people who sabotage their own success when there is literally thousands of avenues available to help people deal with issues in modern society.

choose your own path and don't complain when it becomes a dead end. just turn around and try a different path....

3. luck has nothing to do with it. if you believe in luck as a mysical force you are kidding yourself. there is probability, there is opportunity, there is choice. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble but there is no 'luck'. luck is simply accounting for probability and strategising accordingly.

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Hmm dont know about that.
But do know that the more often I place myself in front of the freight train of opportunity the "luckier" I get.

After buying some houses in 1995 on the sound judgement that a freeway was going to open up one area---along came the strongest housing boom in history---luck?

Julia said:

I fully support a decent welfare system but would like to see it more finely targeted. Probably to do this wouldn't be cost effective, so we go on supporting the bludgers and cheats along with those who really should be receiving much more than they do.

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You would be amazed how much could be saved.

I spent years as a specific welfare cheat investigator.

Example of complete waste..call in everyone for a review every 3 months, huge waste of staff time ( ie taxpayer $)..not to mention the poor buggers money and inconvenience..what you would find is the honest ones turned up, the ones that were working would not..instead of investigating those ones properly, the charade continued.

Now they have implemented an absurdly harsh arbitrary scheme that discriminates against the poor & disposessed etc.

I did countless thousand home visits, you could tell almost straight away when things were amiss.

Came across some really unsavoury criminal big nobs...living in luxury on the dole..and I can tell you they wernt too happy having me as a visitor at their home

Couldnt do anything about them either, they didnt keep their money in the bank!

Riddick said:

as a migrant, whose family lived in one room when we first arrived in australia, had no money for pretty much anything other than basic food this is a subject I have given a huge amount of thought to over the past 25 years.

1. people do indeed make bad choices. this can take many forms: buying a new car when really they don't need one, leveraging up their eyeballs for a house that is wayyyyy too big, having children they cannot hope to afford, general consumption on non essentials. I look at my family here and can say we drove 100 cars, had no tv for a decade, one school uniform etc just so we could manage our money. and we never ate junk food.
in effect, the majority of the urban poor blur the line between need and want: a tv is not a need, a new car is not a need, new clothes are not needs, junk foods are not needs. and lots of folk inbibe in habits that unsustainable eg drinking and smoking. if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

2. people fail to plan ahead. - they make one plan and expect that plan to work out. as we all know, a plan that cannot be changed is a bad plan.

3. luck has nothing to do with it. if you believe in luck as a mysical force you are kidding yourself. there is probability, there is opportunity, there is choice. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble but there is no 'luck'. luck is simply accounting for probability and strategising accordingly.

as you can see I am not very sypathetic, partly as a result of seeing lots of people waste opportunity, or not take full advantage of their circumstances, when given a boost by family, friends or existing social standing. having had nothing other than a single suitcase and far surpassing the yearly earnings of the vast bulk of the population, I can share from experience that choice is the key element in success: the choice to get educated, the choice not to get into lifestyle afflictions that are detrimental to success, the choice not to breed in adverse situations, and the choice to walk away from environments that do not line up with my future ambitions, the choice to create ever evolving financial plans suitable to current climates. the list is endless.

sorry for the lack of sympathy, I just can't feel sorry for people who sabotage their own success when there is literally thousands of avenues available to help people deal with issues in modern society.

choose your own path and don't complain when it becomes a dead end. just turn around and try a different path....

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Wow ... its just all so easy isn't it? Really, its not all that simple, or black and white.

Good one Riddick and well done : )

I also agree with awg and disarrays post regarding welfare..

Happy said:

Isn't it possible to report them anonymously?

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Yes..see my subsequent post...most dob-ins are spiteful non-matters, but lots of good ones, usually spurned ex's

stocksontheblock said:

I have noticed Foxtel as been deemed a waste. So what? If you do earn $500 a week and are responsible with all your money, and budget – as many of you seem to claim they mustn’t be – then Foxtel is maybe just the one little ‘luxury’ they can afford themselves. Assume $600 a yr for this little ‘luxury’ and it’s at the expense of what? Very little! It might add up to $6000 in 10 yrs, yet what will this have achieved? Nothing in real terms.

Where does the naivety of trying to get out of the cycle of poverty stop? Don’t buy that single cup of coffee each week? Don’t go to the movies once a month? Buy all clothes from the ‘op’ shop’? Everything that is purchased must be a home/no name brand?

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LOL the Foxtel and Cappacino's..I rag a mate of mine all the time about this, tell cafe-boy to cut that crap and buy equities instead.

watch the ABC, SBS and drink Nescafe 43, eat Bi-Lo choc wheats:

many years ago, earnt some extra money, decided to spend half on toys and invest the other half in equities, including floats of CBA and WOW..guess the rest

Given that all things are equal, I think people who are poor as a way of life, as opposed to someone "down on their luck" has everything to do with mindset.

Some have a negative cast to their thinking

Some are self defeating

Some have fear of success, while others have fear of failure, and when they do fail, it causes problems that may take years to overcome.

I think it's a complicated area.

awg said:

I very much agree with this point. ( although not EVERYONE)

Having worked in the welfare system, you all would go bananas if you knew how many lazy bastards sit back with 4 or 5 kids and pull near the average wage.

( Every criminal and drug dealer is on welfare also, so they have visible means of support)

It was always my assertion that the amount of welfare you receive should be at least be partially linked to your contribution to society.

If you want to kick back and not contribute, get very little.

If you are genuine, put in the hours.

"Work for the dole" was very poorly thought thru, implemented, and understood.

I could identify a welfare cheat in literally a few minutes, but was never really allowed to target them, it was always "Mcdonalds" welfare..the same treatment for everyone...my ar$e

But dont target those who shouldnt be targeted, it is a waste of time, money, and emotion

Click to expand...

awg said:

You would be amazed how much could be saved.

I spent years as a specific welfare cheat investigator.

Example of complete waste..call in everyone for a review every 3 months, huge waste of staff time ( ie taxpayer $)..not to mention the poor buggers money and inconvenience..what you would find is the honest ones turned up, the ones that were working would not..instead of investigating those ones properly, the charade continued.

Now they have implemented an absurdly harsh arbitrary scheme that discriminates against the poor & disposessed etc.

I did countless thousand home visits, you could tell almost straight away when things were amiss.

Came across some really unsavoury criminal big nobs...living in luxury on the dole..and I can tell you they wernt too happy having me as a visitor at their home

Couldnt do anything about them either, they didnt keep their money in the bank!

Click to expand...

Its like watching ACA or TT. The myth as fact stories, and myth as 'they are all doing it' is simply amazing.

This is not directly aimed at you awg, yet some reality needs to be injected into all of this. I to have a lot of experience in this area, and sure it might be a mess, yet its not that bad that those who are bleeding the system are not caught. Maybe where you are, or where you were, yet its not really the norm.