Who trades full-time?

[skc]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

You nearly had me there, but what about the term professional gambler? I know (knew) many of those.

You imply that only an employee can be a professional.

Is a self employed accountant not a professional then?

That's employment status. My definition was about whether someone else pays them to do their job. Presumably the self employed account still gets paid to do someone's books.

But have to say you had me there with professional gamblers.

That's a can of worms. As Wayne points out, there are many ways to define "professional". My own definition would be a combination - someone successful, skilled and approaches their work with a professional attitude. I imagine the original intention of the term "professional trader" was used to separate the chaff from the wheat, rather than institutional and retail traders.

Your definition is a bigger can of worms. Professional attitude? What about sports person with lots of talent but are lazy, late for practice, carrying guns in nightclubs and doing drugs? And you will no doubt agree there are plenty of professionals (be they engineers, accountants or fortune teller) out there who are neither successful nor skillful...

Also the component of trading returns as income in your annual tax return. In my opinion, if trading represented the majority of your declared income you would arguably be a "professional" trader.

I know a doctor friend who earns more trading then performing surgery. I guess there is no rule to say you can't be professional in more than one area.

Anyhow... enough of this discussion. Call yourself what you like. I will stick with the one that allows me to get cheaper market data.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Anyhow... enough of this discussion. Call yourself what you like. I will stick with the one that allows me to get cheaper market data.

Good point!

Retail Trader it is!

 

[cutz]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

G'Day WayneL,

I notice you're back down under. Doing the nightshift or are you trading aussie options again.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

G'Day WayneL,

I notice you're back down under. Doing the nightshift or are you trading aussie options again.

Nightshift mate. I refuse to trade Oz options.

 

[Mr J]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Your definition is a bigger can of worms. Professional attitude? What about sports person with lots of talent but are lazy, late for practice, carrying guns in nightclubs and doing drugs? And you will no doubt agree there are plenty of professionals (be they engineers, accountants or fortune teller) out there who are neither successful nor skillful...

It may be insulting to unsuccessful and unskilled professionals, and ignoring the success of athletes that act unprofessionally, but being a "professional" in my opinion isn't a title, but a quality.

 

[DB008]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Nightshift mate. I refuse to trade Oz options.

Why is that Wayne?

 

[skc]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Nightshift mate.

You are a professional indeed! May be you should move to Hawaii?

 

[aramz]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Ill move the post here so it doesn't left behind on the other page.

Also how long have you been trading off US options Wayne. Did it take you years to become successfull and develop the option strategies you have today? Was this journey mostly smooth sailing?

Heres the updated question from the previous page:

Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.

Just some general questions about the trading life with some technicals about their schedule and if they are pulling in an income they can live comfortably off.

It might offer some guidance or give rookie traders some undestanding of what it's like to trade fulltime. Trading fulltime seems like such a distant goal sometimes and and it would be nice to know what it actually is like with regards to spending hours attached to a computer screen or whether someone juggles social life with spending 4 or so hours a day trading etc. Just a bit of insight. When at high school you can do work experience and vacation work all involving a career path you would like to follow. With trading you can't really sit behind a trader riding him while he makes and plans trades.

Any input regarding what i've mentioned above would be great. The more the better.

Cheers.

 

[skc]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.

I trade full time (as a private retail trader ) and has been doing so for ~18 months.

I start my day usually at 8am, catching up overnight market news, review existing trades (e.g. moving stops and targets) and pending orders, and scan for interesting stocks that I will watch closely during the day. When market opens it's all about managing/placing orders, checking entry and exit signals, reading news and announcements, researching and other analysis. After market closes, it's reviewing trades, records keeping, checking broker statements etc. Most days end at ~6pm, although I do often read (news / trading books etc) at night.

So working hours are easily ~50-55 hours a week for me, which is similar to what I used to do in a full time job. I do save ~1hr each day commuting...
Trading full time to me was not a lifestyle choice at all, it was a work-style choice. Being able to make your own decisions, plan your own time, do everything your own style, review your own performance, no office politics or putting up with incompetent co-workers, wearing only undies if it gets hot... the benefits are endless.

Some trading style probably require less hours worked. I guess I am just not that good. I also always worried that I will miss some opportunities. With full time trading you have to take opportunities when they come, as you just don't know when the next one will come around. To highlight the importance, my biggest trade accounted for 25% of my year's return... so I can't afford to miss too many of them.

I trade mostly Australian shares, and run a suite of discretionary strategies... bit of long, bit of short, bit of pairs, bit of technical analysis and bit of fundamental analysis. All strategies are changing all the time. Because the array of strategies, I sometimes have over 50 different positions at the same time... keeps me busy I guess.

One thing I would also stress is that you should start trading from a position of financial strength rather than financial need. If you want to make $100K a year, you should have at least 3x that amount. Otherwise you may be forced to push the action even when the market is quiet, or you will have trouble recovering from a poor first 6 months. Start small, build the skill, then build the capital. Or, if you have a large inheritance... then go for it.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Why is that Wayne?

Lack of choice.
Lack of liquidity.
Lack of tradeable strikes.
Wide spreads.
Lack of a viable futures options market.
That's just off the top of my head

You are a professional indeed! May be you should move to Hawaii?

Shhhhh! I'll lose my cheap data rates.

Also how long have you been trading off US options Wayne. Did it take you years to become successfull and develop the option strategies you have today? Was this journey mostly smooth sailing?

Since 2003. I blew up one small account and fattened my "You Idiot" file early on.

You have to view options trading as an apprenticeship. It's as much art as science, so it takes a while to become consistent without some sort of mentor slapping you with a wet fish every now and again.

The lights came on when I managed to get some time with a big knob (through sheer luck) options trader that taught me how to think about options trading.

 

[BradK]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

The lights came on when I managed to get some time with a big knob (through sheer luck) options trader that taught me how to think about options trading.

Hi Wayne,

Left lovely Cheltenham for NZ??? What the...

Take this the right way, but I am sure many would agree that you are the big knob when it comes to options around here. I have read your blog and had a few lights come on myself.

Cheers
Brad

 

[nunthewiser]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Hehehe

We get to call WayneL a big nob and get away with it for a short time while its on kinda topic.


Please excuse that moment of crude immaturity

 

[aramz]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Thanks for the reply SKC that's exactly what i was looking for.

Does anyone else have anything to share regarding this topic?

 

[Mr J]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Does anyone else have anything to share regarding this topic?

Time commitment varies from trader to trader, and I think it's important to find an amount that suits your personality and trading style.

 

[Fishbulb]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

I'll post this here as it's as good a place as any.

Starting out, and I'm a wannabe full-time trader at this point. No real financial need, but I do have financial wants yessirree. And to that end, I'm studying as much as possible before I enter the market as an EOD trader - to begin with.

There's just so much to learn, and it's easy to be overwhelmed by information if you don't stay focused on where you are.

 

[Out Too Soon]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

I've been trading full time on & off over the last few years. Still got a lot to learn & only sometimes successful. I have a rather slow internet connection as I live in a third world country ( Australia ) woops ONLY JOKING ! I get in trouble for making cracks like that. Blame Telstra so I can't compete with the real day traders
I try to trade between a few days to a few weeks, I only have a little capital that is really the banks money
I get busy from before open trade, if I have a lot of stock & little cash I'm looking for an up day to sell, vice versa if I'm mostly out of the mkt & the ASX is starting to climb I look to BUY more but normally I'm somewhere in between using charts 1st backed by info 2nd to make buy & sells for small profits 10 % or more is good, $100 is OK, less than $100 is grab something before it's negative.

Somedays if my stock isn't moving much I spend all day & sometimes evening looking for the next BUYs, Somedays when my stock & the ASX is stagnant I take a break & do some house maintenance & gardening It's no use & dangerous to "över-trade" when the ASX isn't doing what you want & you're getting sick & frustrated = take a break.

I'll let you know how much capital & how many yrs DIY experience I need when I know myself

My 1st goal is to consistently avg $2k profit /mth, at present I feel I'm nearly there but I'm an optimist. I'm considering taking a part time job after Xmas if I'm not more successful with my set goal

Good luck with your trading, be persistant. The only way you'll know if you can day trade full time is by having a go. It helps to be living in a good environment.

PS: I'm jealous of ppl like Kennas. I imagine he's travelling Sth America with a laptop in his back pack. I hope to trade like that some day. Call it my long term goal

 

[Aussiest]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Ill move the post here so it doesn't left behind on the other page.

Also how long have you been trading off US options Wayne. Did it take you years to become successfull and develop the option strategies you have today? Was this journey mostly smooth sailing?

Heres the updated question from the previous page:

Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.

Just some general questions about the trading life with some technicals about their schedule and if they are pulling in an income they can live comfortably off.

It might offer some guidance or give rookie traders some undestanding of what it's like to trade fulltime. Trading fulltime seems like such a distant goal sometimes and and it would be nice to know what it actually is like with regards to spending hours attached to a computer screen or whether someone juggles social life with spending 4 or so hours a day trading etc. Just a bit of insight. When at high school you can do work experience and vacation work all involving a career path you would like to follow. With trading you can't really sit behind a trader riding him while he makes and plans trades.

Any input regarding what i've mentioned above would be great. The more the better.

Cheers.

I started just before the GFC, lost a lot of $ due to not placing stop losses and using too much leverage. Once i had eroded my capital down to 55-60% of what it once was (i admit it, i am honest), i had pretty much decided to throw it in and return to my 'afternoon shift' job. A month later, I decided to go straight, and get a full time job. I had a week off in between, and during this time, I traded CBA like it was going out of fashion. I made around 8% of the capital I had lost, back.

When I started my new f/t job, I had just started watching the market again. I pulled a short trade on NCM which was successful. I then pulled 2 others that were successful.

Three months into my new job, I was made redundant.

Whilst I was looking for a new job, I started trading casually again, this time with a lot less risk. NO LEVERAGE was my motto, cut your losses short and I worked on holding my positions longer. I was a bit nervous about this, as I had originally been a ‘day trader’. I kept trading in this fashion and somewhere along the line, I decided I could make more money and be happier working for myself, from home. I also had a small part time gig, which paid for my living expenses etc. So, I have been trading on a more permanent basis from Feb of this year.

I sometimes get bored and entertain the idea of conventional employment again, and am prepared to so schlep work if I have to (after hours) as it alleviates some of the stress from trading.

When I first started trading, I would take on larger positions and day trade. I now trade smaller positions (scaling in if I need to) and try to hold them for longer. If I see a reason to sell though, I don’t hesitate.

Now I’m at the stage where my strategy needs reviewing. I would like to use a bit of leverage and take slightly larger positions, but this won’t be without review.

Basically, my day starts like this:

8:30-9am: check NASDAQ website, read ADVFN email, check news on ASF, check economic calender. Check oil and gold prices. Analyze DOW performance (buying, sell offs, afternoon trading). Log on to CFD provider to see US futures..

Check charts possible price action, pre market. Make decisions on what i think is going to be hot for the day.

I tend to focus on 3-4 stocks at a time as I find the price and volume action ebbs and flows throughout the sectors.

Basically, I don’t refer to myself as a “trader” as I feel uncomfortable about it and know there are far more experienced than me here, but I realise I am “trading” for now.

 

[Bronte]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Just wanted to throw out a general question asking who trades fulltime and what they like to trade.
I would find it very interesting (believe it or not) to read a bit about a fulltime trader's daily schedule and whether they are enjoying their trading profession and what instruments and methods they like to play around with.

We trade the 'SPI' sort of full time:
6.50 am to 8.30 am :nuts:
11.30 am to 12.45 pm ish
Happy 1/2 hour sometimes.

My husband retired from engineering over ten years ago to do this.
We absolutely love what we do.

Good luck aramz

 

[Aussiest]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

It's interesting Bronte that you trade the SPI from 6:45am onwards. Do you find the largest moves there?

 

[Bronte]

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Sometimes that is true Aussiest,
It is more profitable for us to trade with the volume.