Who are you voting for?

[Nyden]

I believe a lot of people are toying with the notion of Rudd, they're fascinated by all of his appearances on talk-shows, & what not - but, I doubt he'll win. Fear of Labor will triumph at the end of the day, and fear of change.

I will be taking that $4 bet actually, I'll put a couple of hundred on it for a kick

I guess there is some silver-lining though, if Labor win that is. They'll be blamed for any possible recession; and we won't see them in a fed position again for another decade or 2

 

[noco]

Excellent points.
Really makes you wonder what they will actually do with the IR laws when they get in.... I mean they say that they will do this and that but like Peter Garrett said, they will just change it all once they get in.

Cheers

You know Mint Man we should all vote Labor this time and give Australia a "GOOD DOSE OF HARD LABOUR" for 3 years and then we can kick them out for another decade. Trouble is what a mess to clean up after they stuff things up. I would hate to be in the Coalition Party that finally kicks Labor out of Queensland and it will happen! They will have years of infrastructure to catch up on ; health, education, water storage etc.etc.etc.
There is nothing like learning the hard way when a die hard can't be told.

 

[Duckman#72]

You can't learn from reading a book? WTF?

Hi Chops

I just noticed the message on the bottom of your posts.

"You learn by experience. You have to go through things to actually understand it"

Isn't that pretty much Howard's point exactly.

Duckman

 

[numbercruncher]

or maybe we should just vote Liberal again so they can stand by and let the education and health system collapse, strip every employee of their rights, embark on a few more wars for oil, killing and displacing hundreds of thousands of people, build Nuclear reactors all over the country side all while beleiving that our hole in the ground economy will support the nation for eternity.

Then when it all collapses maybe theyll be gone for a few decades ?

 

[nioka]

or maybe we should just vote Liberal again so they can stand by and let the education and health system collapse, strip every employee of their rights, embark on a few more wars for oil, killing and displacing hundreds of thousands of people,?

Isn't that what we did three years ago?

 

[chops_a_must]

Hi Chops

I just noticed the message on the bottom of your posts.

"You learn by experience. You have to go through things to actually understand it"

Isn't that pretty much Howard's point exactly.

Duckman

No.

Because it's flawed by his adventures in Iraq. Supporting the US wrongly in regards to Vietnam has not stopped him wrongly supporting the US in Iraq.

 

[2020hindsight]

Because it's flawed by his adventures in Iraq. Supporting the US wrongly in regards to Vietnam has not stopped him wrongly supporting the US in Iraq.

spot on chops
question is, will that idiot Bush attack Iran as well.
thanks god we won't have "MT Johnny" around to follow him there as well

ps MT = "me too" of course

 

[Rafa]

I have a question for you true blue liberals....

How do you tolerate a leader, who despite his rhetoric, has managed to turn Australia into a welfare state... or more specifically... a middle class welfare state.

I can understand a lot of you supporting Costello and his views as part of the HR Nicholls society, because ideologically that fits... But Howard has in many ways, outdone labor and has managed to turn Australia, whilst in the midst of boom condition, to also have record welfare payments! Do we really need things like the baby bonus (for spending on plasma tv's), medicare safety net (which helps those who go to the most expensive doctors), private health insurance rebate (for those rich enough to afford private health cover), childcare rebate and now the education fees tax deduction (again going to those who pay fees) when that money collectively could quite possibly fix the problems in health, education and child care?

Whatever happened to small govt liberals...??? I would rather the welfare be focussed on those who really need it, and the rest of my taxes given back, thank you very much.

Welfare bill soars despite PM's aspirations

ALTHOUGH the Prime Minister, John Howard, wants Australia to move from a "welfare state to an opportunity society", new figures show welfare expenditure has increased every year since 1998, and at $90 billion rivals expenditure on health.

Despite record spending, some welfare experts are questioning whether it is enough, or is going to the right people, in view of the significant number of people who are missing out on essentials.

The new report, Welfare Expenditure Australia, by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, the Government's statistical agency, shows that spending on welfare rose from $57billion to $90billion from 1998-99 to 2005-06.
.
.
.
Peter Saunders, a professorial fellow in the Social Policy Research Centre at the University of NSW, said: "Even though they are spending more, they are not spending enough to meet the need that is out there, or they are misdirecting what they do spend in some way."

In a speech at the Institute of Public Affairs on November 8 Mr Howard spoke of "continuing a great national project we have begun - the transition of Australia from a welfare state to an opportunity society". He later said he did not regard tax breaks for families as welfare.

Professor Saunders is the principal author of a study to be published today that shows 11 per cent of Australians are suffering serious deprivation. They are missing out on at least five items that an overwhelming majority of Australians, when surveyed, said were essential to life. These included items such as $500 in savings for use in an emergency, dental treatment, and home contents insurance.

The report, Towards New Indicators Of Disadvantage, Deprivation And Social Exclusion In Australia, shows many people who are income-poor, such as the elderly, are not necessarily deprived of essential items, but many others who have above-poverty income cannot afford services such as dental care or school outings for their children.
.
.
.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-...pms-aspirations/2007/11/20/1195321782677.html

 

[skint]

No.

Because it's flawed by his adventures in Iraq. Supporting the US wrongly in regards to Vietnam has not stopped him wrongly supporting the US in Iraq.

Moreover, aside from the lessons of Vietnam, Howard's own disastrous experience in Iraq, has only encouraged him to dig a deeper hole for Australia but also Iraq. :swear:

 

[wayneL]

I have a question for you true blue liberals....

How do you tolerate a leader, who despite his rhetoric, has managed to turn Australia into a welfare state... or more specifically... a middle class welfare state.

This is exactly the reason I've gone off the Liberals (aside from the Iraq farce and America sycophancy).

It's pork barreling of the first order, and if many Liberals were honest with themselves, they've been pork barreled.

 

[marklar]

m.

 

[Julia]

Do we really need things like the baby bonus (for spending on plasma tv's)

No. We do not. The baby bonus is encouraging breeding amongst those least likely to make a contribution to our society.
But has Labor suggested abolishing this? No.

medicare safety net (which helps those who go to the most expensive doctors)

I don't think that's really a fair comment. I see many people on very low incomes who have sick children or are ill themselves, who really benefit from this. There is considerable uniformity in doctors' fees overall so I don't think well off people necessarily incur greater medical bills.

private health insurance rebate (for those rich enough to afford private health cover)

Rafa, I don't believe having private health insurance is a measure of one's financial situation at all. I had a number of years when I was really poor - even had to depend on a government sickness benefit for a while - but always chose to go without something else to pay for private cover.
It has nothing to do with wealth or elitism. It simply has to do with complete lack of faith in the public health system.

childcare rebate and now the education fees tax deduction (again going to those who pay fees) when that money collectively could quite possibly fix the problems in health, education and child care?

The childcare rebate seems unreasonable to me, but again have Labor said they will abolish this? I don't think so. I might well feel differently if I needed childcare personally. Easy to say it's unimportant when I don't personally benefit from it.
No objection to any rebates to do with any aspect of education. It is the backbone of any decent society.

Whatever happened to small govt liberals...??? I would rather the welfare be focussed on those who really need it, and the rest of my taxes given back, thank you very much.p

This is where we differ. I would much prefer the tax cuts not to happen.
The benefits to individuals are not that great, but the benefit of that amount as a whole spent on, say, health would be of benefit to all of us.

I understand absolutely your point about middle class welfare, and your resentment that these rebates etc appear to be going to people who least seem to need it. I'm just suggesting that what appears to be is not always the case and that it's very, very difficult to separate out any welfare measure into those who genuinely need it and those who don't.


http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-...pms-aspirations/2007/11/20/1195321782677.html

 

[Julia]

The reasons I have for voting labor (or exhausting my preferences to Labor), are that even though they're a long way from perfect, they have outperformed the coalition in every portfolio over the years IMO. These are just a few examples. I hope my reasons are sufficiently clearly presented LOL.

The Economy - it took a Labor gov't to 1)float the dollar and deregulate the money markets making Aust. competitive. 2)abolish centralised bargaining which had been in place since 1907. 3)curtail the last wages explosion that occured in 1981-3 under Howard 4)tie wage increases to productivity increases and 5)propose to the Reserve an inflation target of 2-3% which it adopted. Other developed countries have since followed suit. These are the big reforms that have placed Aust in the position it is in. Ironically many still believe that these occured under the coalition. Howard also conceded on the 7:30 report last night that the only reason home interest rates didn't rocket above 12% or so under his treasuryship was because they were CAPPED! and he hadn't floated the dollar. The coalition's reforms have been largely to introduce Work Choices and little else. New Zealand introduced these types of laws years ago with litle or no effect on productivity. Besides presiding over a massive global boom, I fail to see what large and innovative economic reforms the coalition have achieved.

Health - Recall that it was Whitlam that introduced universal Health Medicare), leaving the US as the only developed economy without it. We all know what happens if you're in the bottom 25% of the pop. in the US and get crook. Howard fought to dismantle Medicare for years and has not outlined any plan to improve the system now. I believe Rudd's proposal to Federalise Health is a good one. Time will tell how well he achieves this, but its a start.

The Environment - Again a no-brainer. Labor's record could be a lot better but is clearly ahead on this issue. Ratifying Kyoto is largely symbolic but is an obvious first step to show that we're serious. Setting carbon targets and so on is the inevitable path that the world is going in, so better to adapt now than do so in a more expensive panic later. Howard has publicly denied climate change until 10 mins ago and only in response to the political fallout. He is still not prepared to actually do anything.

Education - Again, whilst Labor's education revolution is a bit of an overstatement, they could hardly do worse. I can't recall the exact numbers, but Aust's education expenditure ,as a percent of GDP, has consistently and dramatically fallen over the last decade relative to other modern economies. This also has significant implications for the economy. Howard's only ideas were to stick a priest in every school, prescribe some warped view of Aust. history and pour money into the schools that least need it.

Defence - taking a country unnecessarily to war at huge expense and against all advice (except George W) is probably the most serious crime a government can commit. Does anyone seriously think that was a good idea or that we haven't increased the terrorist threat as result? The coalition also spent a squillion on a pile of crap planes, but then again Beazley bought a pile of crap submarines, so I guess that evens out.

Unfortunately Labor is unambiguously imperfect but relative to the current mob, its a pretty clear cut for mine. I wish my investment decisions were as simple!

Skint, thanks for a really useful post. I didn't come here to live until 1993 so I'm interested in what you say.
And yep, it's crystal clear, thanks!

 

[2020hindsight]

Remember, it's only the Liberal Party that can keep this advertising boom going.

actually $196 million last financial year -
plus (says Rudd) approx $1 million per day since.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/19/2095035.htm

Labor, Democrats slam Govt advertising spending
Posted Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:30pm AEDT
The Prime Minister's department's annual report has revealed the Federal Government spent more than $196 million on advertising campaigns last financial year.

The advertising included more than $18 million each for defence force recruiting and the third Telstra share offer, $14 million for private health insurance and $13 million for superannuation.

The biggest spending went on campaigns for military recruitment and the third Telstra share offer which both cost more than $18 million.

Labor leader Kevin Rudd says the Government has continued to spend heavily on advertising, and he estimates it to have spent $1 million a day this financial year.

Mr Rudd says some of it has been blatant political advertising and a waste of taxpayers' money.

"What we see here is short-term political interest ultimately strangling the long-term interest of the nation, including the health of our democracy," he said.

"'What I say is let us as a nation unite behind a reform for this in the future so that we've got decency restored to public administration."

The Democrats say the annual report shows taxpayers funds have been squandered on promoting party political propaganda.

Democrats Senator Andrew Murray says a good portion of the money was spent to help the Coalition retain power, rather than being useful information.

Senator Murray says it is difficult to tell how much of the tax payer funded advertising was legitimate.

"The problem with it is of course that a substantial proportion of that is party political advertising designed to benefit the Liberal and National parties," he said.

But Prime Minister John Howard has defended the spending report and says the advertising included non-political issues.

"Defence recruitment, $18.8 million, violence against women $10.2 million, the national tobacco campaign $6.2 million, skin cancer campaign, $5.1 million," he said.

"Well I think it's legitimate to advertise for soldiers, sailors and airmen, and that recruitment campaign's been very successful.

"I think you should advertise against violence against women, I think we need to remind the men of Australia that real men don't hit women."

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2092980.htm

Bob Ellis on Right and Wrong. The Right's dirty tricks are many and cunning and foul and they stink in the nostrils of our neighbourly democracy - disfranchising 200,000 students, vagrants and people between addresses for instance, disqualifying George Newhouse, pretending Hicks, Habib, Haneef and Tony Tranh have somehow, somewhere imperilled Australia, pretending interest payments under Hawke and Keating weren't half, in real terms, of what they are now. But their most remarkable success, I think, has been to abolish - or terminally diminish - the concepts of 'better' and 'worse', and 'right' and 'wrong'.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2074467.htm

Irfan Yusuf on (screwed up/ confused) religion in politics. In the NSW State Election, Nile candidates gave preferences to allegedly non-Muslim Liberals such as Liverpool candidate (and nominally Lebanese Shia) Ned Mannoun. Nile refused preferences to nasty Muslim types like Marrickville businessman (and Coptic Christian) Ramzy Mansour. Hopefully the Coalition isn't running any Christians with stereotypical Muslim-sounding names in this election.

 

[Aussiejeff]

Oh dear. After last nights fiasco (where Lib party members were expelled over the distribution of racial slur pamphlets trying to implicate Labor with Islamic terrorism) in Jackie Kelly's seat - including distribution by her hubby - the best defence so far offered (by Jackie I believe) is that it was meant to be sort of tongue-in-cheek campaign move!!

Crikey, the poo is hitting the fan thick and fast for both sides now, but this doozy takes the cake.......

Good luck explaining this one, Johnny.


AJ

PS: Good grief, Jackie is on the radio now saying "it was only a funny prank... it's terrible that Labor goons mounted a Chaser style operation to catch my husband and his colleagues...." ... she is a seriously sick puppy to think that this won't hurt the Liberal Party "at all". Go figure.

 

[numbercruncher]

It should be obvious to voters by now just how dodgy and dishonest the Liberals have become , look at this one from a few months back ....

LIBERAL Senator Bill Heffernan's latest foray into the world of strange politics has been to pose as an Australian Security Intelligence Organisation agent.

That's when he's not phoning Queensland farmers claiming to be Nationals senator Barnaby Joyce, to ask them what they think of "that Bill Heffernan bloke".

Senator Heffernan admits to making the call.

Under the Crimes Act it is an offence to impersonate a Commonwealth officer.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/asio-agent-heffernan-makes-odd-calls/2007/06/23/1182019436635.html

 

[Aussie2Aussie]

It should be obvious to voters by now just how dodgy and dishonest the Liberals have become , look at this one from a few months back ....



http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/asio-agent-heffernan-makes-odd-calls/2007/06/23/1182019436635.html

Same tactics used by every party at every election - nothing new, it is either Labor gets caught or Liberal.

In my electorate, Bennelong, I have seen posters go up one day, to drive by the next to see it defaced or gone entirely, then replaced with a new one or with one from an opposing party and then the cycle starts again - that goes for Labor, Liberal, Democrat, Christian Democrat ..........

 

[Superfly]

spot on chops
question is, will that idiot Bush attack Iran as well.
thanks god we won't have "MT Johnny" around to follow him there as well

ps MT = "me too" of course

So it's ok to let the mad Moollars get the bomb ?...

...anti-Americanism from left voters....

 

[Aussie2Aussie]

Just in case anyone thinks that the Liberals are the only ones that do this kind of stuff.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...r-safe-ALP-seat/2005/01/26/1106415668219.html

http://lee.greens.org.au/index.php/content/view/1077/42/

http://mcv.e-p.net.au/news/gay-claim-dirty-tricks-campaign-2.html

http://www.wilderness.org.au/campaigns/forests/victoria/farce/

these after a not even really trying!