What constitutes a fair wage?

[nioka]

What does constitute a fair wage in the year 2008. In a discussion yesterday with a neice of mine the subject of a fair wage was raised. Her daughter who has just turned 16 worked during school holidays at an office doing what she described as some work with computer records. She was paid $800 for the week. She declined to do another week for the business because she said the work was boring.
To me that seems to be a very high wage for a 16yr old with no experience apart from being able to use a computer.
I'm also amazed at the payments that company executives demand these days. They seem to be out of proportion to their effort and the results they obtain. In the past I have held managemant positions and directorships with some reasonably big companies and while I considered myself well paid in comparison to the general workers I would never have expected the rates I see these days.
Am I out of touch completely or is there one section of the community much underpaid and another completely out of control.

 

[prawn_86]

Re: What constitutes a fair wage.

$800 does seem fairly high for a high school student.

Personally I will not work for less that $15/hr, however I am receiving over $20 at my current casual position, which is now while im at uni. Obviously that will increase once I graduate.

Re: Exec salaries, I dont care how much they get paid, providing they create value. My biggest issue is the fact that the 'performance' hurdles they face are virtually non existant. Make harder targets to make them work harder...

 

[reece55]

Re: What constitutes a fair wage.

$800 does seem fairly high for a high school student.

Personally I will not work for less that $15/hr, however i am recieving over $20 at my current casual position, which is now while im at uni. Obviously that will increase once i graduate.

Re: Exec salaries, I dont care how much they get paid, providing they create value. My biggest issue is the fact that the 'performance' hurdles they face are virtually non existant. Make harder targets to make them work harder...

I agree, $800 a week is a lot of cash to get per week...... However, with any salary, I think it depends on the cost of living where you are situated. For example, I'm in SA and after visiting Sydney a few times, I can safely say that Sydney residents need to get paid a fair bit more to me - it's damn right expensive to live there!

I would also concur with the executive stance taken by Prawnster - I don't care about the level of payment if it is commensurate with performance. The issue, as prawn points out, is that often the benchmark is too low. Or, as is pretty obvious from US banker salaries in the last couple of years, based on false valuations...

For listed entities, I favour a high proportion of at risk salary, with a majority long term incentive preferably made up of stock purchased in the company held in trust for the director concerned. The options that were issued to directors in exploration entities in the last 3 years has been an absolute disgrace.....

Cheers

 

[golfmos123]

Nioka,

Sounds like a classic Gen Y type thing. Want the money, but don't want to work too hard, and don't want to be inconvenienced while earning it.

Have one at work under me (along with a number of Gen X and baby boomers) and the difference in thinking is quite unbelievable. Could be a new thread all on its own. Don't know how many others out there see it too but it can be summarised as follows...(at risk of offending the youngsters out there)

* work ethic not too high - this has alienated others quite quickly
* excuses for almost everything that isn't delivered on time or at required quality
* usually refuses to take responsibility for individual actions

I could probably go on, but am feeling old and spiteful all of a sudden......

 

[xoa]

Nioka,

Sounds like a classic Gen Y type thing. Want the money, but don't want to work too hard, and don't want to be inconvenienced while earning it.

Have one at work under me (along with a number of Gen X and baby boomers) and the difference in thinking is quite unbelievable. Could be a new thread all on its own. Don't know how many others out there see it too but it can be summarised as follows...(at risk of offending the youngsters out there)

* work ethic not too high - this has alienated others quite quickly
* excuses for almost everything that isn't delivered on time or at required quality
* usually refuses to take responsibility for individual actions

In the workplaces I've seen, it's the inverse. The people barely out of uni are working through the night and on weekends, volunteer to be on-call, while the older employees refuse to work outside the regular 9-5. The young people are hungrier for success, often cash in their sick leave and holidays, interact better with people from other departments, and have an eye for working overseas... The oldies just want to finish the working day and put their feet up.

 

[reece55]

In the workplaces I've seen, it's the inverse. The people barely out of uni are working through the night and on weekends, volunteer to be on-call, while the older employees refuse to work outside the regular 9-5. The young people are hungrier for success, often cash in their sick leave and holidays, interact better with people from other departments, and have an eye for working overseas... The oldies just want to finish the working day and put their feet up.

I personally think it's a mixed bag in both respects - I have the broad spectrum at my work, plenty of young people wanting to put in hard and vice versa. Same goes for those above 30.

As for the complaints from GenX and Baby Boomers about we GenY's, I say this is just the evolution of the work force. There is always the complaint that we don't have the same work ethic (i.e. not happy to stay in the same job for 40 years, etc.).... The reality is that workplaces these days are showing employees that they too don't have ethics, because regardless of how dedicated you are, my view is that employers these days see employees just like their plant and equipment - they pay for a service and if they don't want it, they can turf it whenever they want. As for the complaints we want too much money for too little service, well I think that is debatable, especially considering the salaries that I have seen dished out to older employees who can't use a single piece of software on a computer! That said, experience has no substitute and I personally thrive on learning from those who have done it all before - after all, life is one big learning experience in the end. I think as usual, the employment marketplace is fairly efficient, it normally awards remuneration in the right way......

Cheers

 

[freddy2]

No such thing as a "fair" wage - is it fair that teachers earn $50K a year while Barry Hall earns 10 times that much? It's all supply and demand, which while not perfect is probably the best way to determine wages.

 

[tigerboi]

wow $800 for a 16 year old,that is top dollar...cant see how there could be any complaints,my 17 year old is in year 12 & works part time casual at woolies for the experience & the dollars,she has her heart set on being a copper,i said to her long time ago...work to your strengths which for her is computers,just brilliant at them...

The problem with the youngsters these days is they want to get top dollar right away without starting at the bottom then working your way up,i see it in my industry of transport,which thankfully has some age requirements by the insurance companies to drive a certain vehicle,however the workplace is very different to when i got my first job back in 1980...tb

 

[imajica]

No such thing as a "fair" wage - is it fair that teachers earn $50K a year while Barry Hall earns 10 times that much? It's all supply and demand, which while not perfect is probably the best way to determine wages.

I have been working as a teacher for 10 years and agree that we are seriously underpaid for the work we do. However if you are willing to work hard (ie-during the day at school + coaching in the evenings) you can make well over 100k

 

[tigerboi]

I have been working as a teacher for 10 years and agree that we are seriously underpaid for the work we do. However if you are willing to work hard (ie-during the day at school + coaching in the evenings) you can make well over 100k

I will say this much about some teachers,they are getting paid too much for the absolute dribble they teach my girls,the everyone wins a prize system where you cant fail anyone is in fact doing the opposite,as in the real world if you cant add up or spell you are useless,i myself have to correct the teachers markings for mistakes...

The system has been infected with PC nonsense,social engineering half wits running the show with the latest rubbish of taking orders from a gay minority group wanting gender neutral nonsense!!! wtf who is this mob???
how about getting back to real proper teaching,anyway i hope you pull yourself a good wage amongst the numbskulls trying to experiment on our kids....tb

 

[xoa]

the workplace is very different to when i got my first job back in 1980...tb

You're right. Now, there's HECS and HELP debt, "mutual obligation", AWAs, hyperinflated house prices...

 

[metric]

good question.

before any wage earner answers this question, he or she should read "rich dad poor dad". if youve read it, you will understand what i mean.

work is great exercise, but poor value.

 

[imajica]

I will say this much about some teachers,they are getting paid too much for the absolute dribble they teach my girls,the everyone wins a prize system where you cant fail anyone is in fact doing the opposite,as in the real world if you cant add up or spell you are useless,i myself have to correct the teachers markings for mistakes...

The system has been infected with PC nonsense,social engineering half wits running the show with the latest rubbish of taking orders from a gay minority group wanting gender neutral nonsense!!! wtf who is this mob???
how about getting back to real proper teaching,anyway i hope you pull yourself a good wage amongst the numbskulls trying to experiment on our kids....tb

I would have to agree with you regarding the overall consistency of education provided within the public system. I have known many teachers who fail to adequately teach the basics of mathematics, writing and text types and English. In many cases the structure and method of old has been replaced with airy fairy crap. I personally teach on the basis of the old fundamental philosophy that students need structure, routine, academic discipline and a teacher/role model who knows the curriculum inside and out.

 

[nioka]

You're right. Now, there's HECS and HELP debt, "mutual obligation", AWAs, hyperinflated house prices...

A 16yr old, still at high school and living at home has none of those. Do they need or deserve $800 per week.

 

[prawn_86]

A 16yr old, still at high school and living at home has none of those. Do they need or deserve $800 per week.

If they were doing the same job as someone else who would get paid $10 a week, then yes.

That is why i always refused to work for companies that were not equal opportunity employers.

Why should I, when i was 18, do just as much work as a 25yo and get paid 30% less? Retail and fast food industry thrive on this fact however...

 

[doctorj]

I think everyone's missing the point. It's very easy to sit back and say that $800 is too much, but the reality is someone was willing to pay that.

Now, if I can find a 16yo or a 46yo that brings enough into a business that I can justify paying them $800pw I'll happily pay it. Similarly if they generate much more value than that, I don't see why I wouldn't pay them more.

The reality is how old they are is irrelevant. It's just another form of discrimination. People should be paid based on the value they generate.

For example, I know of a 22yo who's not yet finished their degree with about 8 months experience in their line of work who is on track to earn over $350k in his first 12 months. Is he worth it? In truth, he's probably worth much more than that - he's generated over $2m in new business for his company and in a field they weren't previously involved in....

It comes back to the old adage - price is what you pay, but value is what you receive.

 

[ithatheekret]

It comes back to the old adage - price is what you pay, but value is what you receive.

Here's one for that test .

A doctor studies for years on end , then he starts a practice , employs a receptionist and an office manager . Next he gets a waiting room full of bulk billing patients . He averages 4 patients and hour to achieve $120 per hour , by the end of the year he/she is near broke as his bulk billing practice is not enough to cover wages and insurance .

I don't think the doctor would be impressed by the adage , because due to the patients price , he/she is the one that has paid the price , for the value he/she has put out in service .

 

[Trembling Hand]

Thats why doctors always over book. They squeeze in plenty more than 4 an hour!

 

[doctorj]

I don't think the doctor would be impressed by the adage , because due to the patients price , he/she is the one that has paid the price , for the value he/she has put out in service .

In fact, that's the perfect example - price and value are different things. As an employer you should employ where there is value.

In the example you sight, you highlight the inefficiencies of govt interference in markets. Soon there won't be any bulk billing doctors. If experienced accountants and lawyers charge $700-1000/hr, the idea that the government gives bulk billing doctors $100/hr is insane.

 

[treefrog]

I will say this much about some teachers,they are getting paid too much for the absolute dribble they teach my girls,the everyone wins a prize system where you cant fail anyone is in fact doing the opposite,as in the real world if you cant add up or spell you are useless,i myself have to correct the teachers markings for mistakes...

The system has been infected with PC nonsense,social engineering half wits running the show with the latest rubbish of taking orders from a gay minority group wanting gender neutral nonsense!!! wtf who is this mob???
how about getting back to real proper teaching,anyway i hope you pull yourself a good wage amongst the numbskulls trying to experiment on our kids....tb

read your post tiger and couldn't help thinking of the observations attributed to bill gates;

A speech by Bill Gates to high school students on how politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world and postulated the following 11 rules of life:
Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!
Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.
Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping - they called it opportunity.
Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.
Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.
Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself: do that on your own time.
Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.
Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.