VW diesel emission scam

basilio · 25 September 2015

The huge news last week was the announcement that VW had installed a defeat software system on their diesel cars to deceive regulators as to the amount of NO2 etc was being produced by the vehicles.

Turns out that when the cars were actually on the road they produced up to 11 times the allowed limit.

Very far reaching consequences for VW, the auto industry as a whole and the health of the community.

Any thoughts ?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-cost-of-crisis-after-ceo-quits-live-updates

Check out the 2 min video on The Guardian Url for an explanation of teh scam,. Short, clear, excellent

luutzu · 25 September 2015

Re: VW diesal emmission scam

basilio said:
The huge news last week was the announcement that VW had installed a defeat software system on their diesel cars to deceive regulators as to the amount of NO2 etc was being produced by the vehicles.

Turns out that when the cars were actually on the road they produced up to 11 times the allowed limit.

Very far reaching consequences for VW, the auto industry as a whole and the health of the community.

Any thoughts ?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-cost-of-crisis-after-ceo-quits-live-updates

Check out the 2 min video on The Guardian Url for an explanation of teh scam,. Short, clear, excellent

Gov't: Auto makers, where's that wrist? Naughty, very very naughty. Sign here, and here, and pay a couple bucks and don't do it again!

Automakers: oookie... we're sorry.

Have you heard the fine on GM for its faulty ignition? Caused 16 death in the US, broke a bunch of laws, knowingly cover up defects etc. etc.... and no one goes to prison, except for one of the victim who was charged with dangerous driving causing the death of her finance' and almost bankrupted her parents to help fund her defense.

basilio · 25 September 2015

Actually there are already big ramifications with this situation. Three CEO's have been rolled. There are class actions by VW owners in the wings. VW has already booked $10b as fines and costs. This is very big.

Here’s more from London-based law firm Leigh Day on the potential claims for UK customers following the VW emissions scandal. The firm’s Bozena Michalowska-Howells said:

If it emerges that these cars in the UK passed tests because of this software, with emissions higher than legally permitted on the roads, then this is not only a breach of contract but a flagrant breach of EU emissions regulations, which specifically prohibit the use of defeat devices. Consumers are thus entitled to bring claims for compensation directly against VW.

In the event of a UK recall, Volkswagen should initiate contact with its customers to make arrangements concerning a repair. Consumers could be entitled to seek compensation for any increased fuel costs, depreciation of vehicle value, out of pocket expenses and costs associated with future repair including potential increases in Road Tax.

Those drivers who were charged more for the ‘clean diesel’ version of a vehicle could also be entitled to a refund of the difference in price.

In the last two days we have been inundated by Volkswagen owners who bought these vehicles specifically because of their alleged reduced fuel emissions and who are outraged by the company’s actions. They are looking to form a group action.

And as a reminder, here’s our Q&A on how the scandal could affect you if you are a VW car owner:
Volkswagen emissions scandal: how it affects you
Although Volkswagen is saying very little to its UK customers we look at the possible ramifications for owners
Read more

http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-cost-of-crisis-after-ceo-quits-live-updates

luutzu · 25 September 2015

basilio said:
Actually there are already big ramifications with this situation. Three CEO's have been rolled. There are class actions by VW owners in the wings. VW has already booked $10b as fines and costs. This is very big.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-cost-of-crisis-after-ceo-quits-live-updates

Hope so, but if recent corporate malfeasance and its non-consequences is any guide, what ought to happen will be very different to what will happen.

From memory... GFC and banking fraud: no one goes to prison; Fannie Mae and its cooking the books: CEO, CFO or something get $10k and $25k fines, and they don't have to pay for it, the company will; BP and the Gulf of Mexico: should have heard how happy the law-makers were to get a few bucks out of BP... the equivalent of BP's 3 months profit, paid out over a decade or so; New Jersey and ExxonMobil polluting its waters and rivers for over 100 years... they pay maybe 10% of what was estimated to rehabilitate the damaged areas alone, forget about the fines.

People actually died in the GM case and they're getting off with a $900m "gift to the gov't", no recognition of guilt.

Maybe that's over in the US, Europe is different?

So the heads got fired... heard VW's CEO getting a $32M golden parachute. Probably tax free too since it's a forced acquisition or something.

SirRumpole · 25 September 2015

VW should identify the highest official in the company that new about the scam and sack him/her.

This is the problem with the "corporate veil", individuals make the bad decisions but the shareholders carry the can.

sydboy007 · 25 September 2015

SirRumpole said:
VW should identify the highest official in the company that new about the scam and sack him/her.

This is the problem with the "corporate veil", individuals make the bad decisions but the shareholders carry the can.

Hopefully the change in stance by teh US Govt in moving away from just getting a fine to forcing the companies to provide evidence on who knew what, when, what did they do will slowly pay dividends.

Until people start ending up with decent prison time, there's no real incentive for them to obey the law. When the company pays the fine, when at worst they lose their job and can then present themselves as someone who gets the job done, there are no real consequences.

It amazes me that the focus is so much on unions and radical greenies, but then you see the banks go around doing dodgy financial advise and following the catholic church tradition of moving the problem around, not a peep.

Just another symptom of the plutocracy, and Germany is probablly the best example of Govt and large corporations working hand in glove.

Macquack · 25 September 2015

luutzu said:
People actually died in the GM case and they're getting off with a $900m "gift to the gov't", no recognition of guilt.

I think you will find that all major world manufacturers of motor vehicles have a chequered past of killing people with their defective products.

Macquack · 25 September 2015

SirRumpole said:
This is the problem with the "corporate veil", individuals make the bad decisions but the shareholders carry the can.

Not to mention the poor old public that just cops all the sh*t.

This VW deception thing reminds me of Adolf Hitler.
Wikipedia (Volkswagen - VW)

In 1933, Adolf Hitler got involved, demanding the production of a basic vehicle capable of transporting two adults and three children at 100 km/h (62 mph). He wanted his German citizens to have the same access to a car as the Americans. The "People's Car" would be available to citizens of the Third Reich through a savings plan at 990 Reichsmark (US$396 in 1930s dollars)””about the price of a small motorcycle (the average income being around 32RM a week).
Despite heavy lobbying in favour of one of the existing projects, it soon became apparent that private industry could not turn out a car for only 990RM. Thus, Hitler chose to sponsor an all-new, state-owned factory using Ferdinand Porsche's design (with some of Hitler's design constraints, including an air-cooled engine so nothing could freeze). The intention was that ordinary Germans would buy the car by means of a savings scheme – "Five marks a week you must put aside, if you want to drive your own car"), which around 336,000 people eventually paid into. However, the entire project was financially unsound, and only the corruption and lack of accountability of the Nazi regime made it possible.

DB008 · 25 September 2015

Not bad hey...???

THE CEO of Volkswagen who resigned today amid allegations that the company cheated emissions testing for 11 million diesel-powered cars, stands to take home a $32 million pension.

Bloomberg Business reported the figure, along with the fact that the ousted CEO may also be eligible for two years’ worth of remuneration, if VW determines he was terminated for no fault of his own. Winterkorn made $18.6 million in 2014.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/ousted-vw-ceo-32-million-pension/

luutzu · 25 September 2015

Macquack said:
I think you will find that all major world manufacturers of motor vehicles have a chequered past of killing people with their defective products.

Yes you're right.

The steering that impales driver in a accident, their lobbying against seat belt and other safety measures because safety belts give the impression cars aren't safe.

So I guess nothing new here.

SirRumpole · 25 September 2015

Macquack said:
I think you will find that all major world manufacturers of motor vehicles have a chequered past of killing people with their defective products.

No doubt when the Great Walls with their 3 star safety start flooding into the country under Chafta, that situation will not improve.

Smurf1976 · 25 September 2015

I'm wondering about the broader implications of this.

VW is big, very big, and they've already set aside $10 billion which may end up being nowhere near enough. What if they actually do end up broke or at least seriously crippled financially as a result of fines, having to fix the cars, legal action and a likely drop in sales volume going forward?

Firstly that's not going to do much good for Germany's economy. Then there's the flow on effects both with component suppliers etc and purely financial relationships too.

Could this end up as the trigger for a broader crisis?

Smurf1976 · 25 September 2015

SirRumpole said:
No doubt when the Great Walls with their 3 star safety start flooding into the country under Chafta, that situation will not improve.

Personally I've always preferred Japanese car brands. Broadly speaking they're reasonably well built and reliable. Not perfect, but they seem to be the best of the bunch. Korean manufacturers have improved greatly too.

luutzu · 25 September 2015

Smurf1976 said:
I'm wondering about the broader implications of this.

VW is big, very big, and they've already set aside $10 billion which may end up being nowhere near enough. What if they actually do end up broke or at least seriously crippled financially as a result of fines, having to fix the cars, legal action and a likely drop in sales volume going forward?

Firstly that's not going to do much good for Germany's economy. Then there's the flow on effects both with component suppliers etc and purely financial relationships too.

Could this end up as the trigger for a broader crisis?

And that's why nothing much will happen to them.

Too big to fail. Too big to jail.

SirRumpole · 26 September 2015

Smurf1976 said:
Personally I've always preferred Japanese car brands. Broadly speaking they're reasonably well built and reliable. Not perfect, but they seem to be the best of the bunch. Korean manufacturers have improved greatly too.

I have a Hyundai and I'm very happy with it. A 5 year warranty means they have confidence in their product which means that the customers do too.

SirRumpole · 26 September 2015

SirRumpole said:
I have a Hyundai and I'm very happy with it. A 5 year warranty means they have confidence in their product which means that the customers do too.

It's a diesel though, so I have no idea if it's emitting it's right quantity of gases.

overhang · 26 September 2015

luutzu said:
Hope so, but if recent corporate malfeasance and its non-consequences is any guide, what ought to happen will be very different to what will happen.

From memory... GFC and banking fraud: no one goes to prison; Fannie Mae and its cooking the books: CEO, CFO or something get $10k and $25k fines, and they don't have to pay for it, the company will; BP and the Gulf of Mexico: should have heard how happy the law-makers were to get a few bucks out of BP... the equivalent of BP's 3 months profit, paid out over a decade or so; New Jersey and ExxonMobil polluting its waters and rivers for over 100 years... they pay maybe 10% of what was estimated to rehabilitate the damaged areas alone, forget about the fines.

People actually died in the GM case and they're getting off with a $900m "gift to the gov't", no recognition of guilt.

Maybe that's over in the US, Europe is different?

So the heads got fired... heard VW's CEO getting a $32M golden parachute. Probably tax free too since it's a forced acquisition or something.

Yes it seems to be one set of rules for corporations and another for the rest of us. The CFMEU were fined collectively 4.75 million for their unlawful industrial action against Grocon but yet Grocon was fined just 250k for their safety breach that resulted in a brick wall collapsing and killing 3 members of the public.

Smurf1976 · 26 September 2015

SirRumpole said:
I have a Hyundai and I'm very happy with it. A 5 year warranty

I'm no expert but the general impression I get is that Hyundai has gradually worked its way up to the point where their cars are now more reliable and better built than much of the competition. Not generally that fancy, but durable and practical certainly. I'd consider buying one.

Cars are very much a matter of personal taste. For me, I couldn't give a damn about "prestige" but I do want it to work reliably and without hassles. Others will of course have a different opinion.

My humble year 2000 model Nissan is still running fine so I'll keep driving it. Sum total of all breakdowns over the 15 years that I've owned it = two battery failures. That's it, nothing else has needed doing to the car apart from routine servicing and replacing the tyres when due. It's my definition of what constitutes a good car = gets me from A to B with a very high degree of reliability. Pretty sure it wouldn't comply with 2015 emissions standards (though it should still comply with the standards when built or at least come pretty close), although it's still more fuel efficient than a lot of newer vehicles (about 6.5 litres / 100km in actual use).

A big complexity with all these environmental issues concerning cars is local factors. The overall approach to emissions is basically aimed at reducing conventional pollutants (CO, HC and NOx) emission which is primarily an issue in cities. From a purely environmental perspective, if the vehicle is being driven in the middle of nowhere then you're better off maximising the engine's thermal efficiency (which will minimise CO2) and just not worrying about CO, HC or NOx coming out the exhaust. That is, if you're in the middle of nowhere then oil consumption and CO2 are still issues but local pollutants aren't generally worth worrying about.

In the context of someone who never drives the car into or near a large city, these "polluting" VW's are indeed quite green given that they seem to be reasonably fuel efficient. Not really acceptable in an urban environment however.

luutzu · 27 September 2015

Smurf1976 said:
I'm no expert but the general impression I get is that Hyundai has gradually worked its way up to the point where their cars are now more reliable and better built than much of the competition. Not generally that fancy, but durable and practical certainly. I'd consider buying one....

Saw a car ad the other day and thought to myself... one day, when I make a few millions, will definitely get that car... Aston Martin, James Bond and midlife crisis... Then the ad closes with a Hyundai logo. Don't know about their engine and reliability but they're really doing good work on the outside.

sptrawler · 27 September 2015

basilio said:
The huge news last week was the announcement that VW had installed a defeat software system on their diesel cars to deceive regulators as to the amount of NO2 etc was being produced by the vehicles.

Turns out that when the cars were actually on the road they produced up to 11 times the allowed limit.

Very far reaching consequences for VW, the auto industry as a whole and the health of the community.

Any thoughts ?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-cost-of-crisis-after-ceo-quits-live-updates

Check out the 2 min video on The Guardian Url for an explanation of teh scam,. Short, clear, excellent

You are always going to get these sorts of problems, when you legislate for an improvement in fuel economy and a reduction in emissions, in a relatively short time frame.

The fuel efficiency is obtained by the diesel cycle, the emission and socially acceptable fuel is the Otto cycle.

The companies are put under pressure to achieve both, while continuing to turn a profit, this pressure is pushed down the corporate ladder. Someone works out a fudge factor in the computer code, Bob's your uncle.

Just another nail in the internal combustion coffin.

VW diesel emission scam

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