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It's an algo dumping, what looks like a large position.
VAU - Vault Minerals
- Thread starter Uncle Festivus
- Start date
Firstly, RED does NOT need to raise any more cash for Siana. The consolidation is not being undertaken for that purpose whatsoever. Fwpike has answered that aspect re the limitations imposed by some North American funds groups investing in resource shares.
Put very simply LostHisShirt, the reason for the consolidation is to increase the appeal of RED to a wider audience, including N American funds groups, who might otherwise be restricted in their investments that might otherwise preclude RED from being considered. And why do we want RED more available to such a wider audience, to increase it share price, simple as that!
AND who knows what might happen in the future with RED. What is it going to do with all the surplus cash from Siana production? Well for instance, it might be to push harder on the exploration front, on its own leases at Siana or Mapawa, where there are possibilities of a mega project, such as LSY prospect at Mapawa which could develop into a major gold porphyry requiring mega bucks to develop. That is where having major insto's involved with RED could be significant. Other than straight exploration RED could conceivably look to acquire other assets, eg Boyongan, or similar, that again would require a large amount of capital for development as well as acquisition. Or something outside of the Philippines, who knows what else could be considered once Siana is up and running and providing considerable cash flows.
THAT is why I want to stay in RED for the longer term!!!
By the way, what makes you think that an algo is "dumping"? I suggest it is slowly chewing, lol, and probably its more about trying to increase a holding rather than dumping!
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Oh well that's because the small parcels are being thrown out but someone is buying them.
Look at the trade history you'll see what I mean.
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As at 3:20 today there has been 384 trades
299 out of the 384 trades have been for 550 or 600 shares at a time
And 8 @ 4222 shares all at the same time
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As at 3:20 today there has been 384 trades
299 out of the 384 trades have been for 550 or 600 shares at a time
And 8 @ 4222 shares all at the same time
Exactly.
It could be algo it could just be parcel selling either way it was a set and timed system.
A lot was dumped and I made a buy at 0.185cps.
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I was observing RED and this was done all day - someone kept putting in sell orders of 550 and 600 at 18.5 every single minute of the day.
Is it done that way to prevent volume showing on the sell orders? Would it have a significant effect on brokerage fees?
They had to be sell orders for those amounts, as they did not show up in the buyer orders (they would have gone to the end of the list for 18.5c, but there were none there anyway).
Of course a sell is also a buy, so to clarify what I mean is that whoever caused the small trades was selling.
Anyway, I couldn't be happier I'm not holding for the weekend, as EU seems to be losing the plot. And I do of course say this with a very short-term trading perspective. Hoping to get in either next week or the one after. RED's sp could well go lower. There was apparently a broad sell off by instos after 2, and clearly someone big didn't feel confident about RED for the time being.
Gold has not gone anywhere in a hurry. There was a rumour going around that Bernanke has privately said that there will be no more monetary easing (ie. no QE3). This did not effect gold at all, so it seems interesting that it could have been somewhat priced in already (I assumed that the market was still betting on QE3 in the medium term, perhaps some time early next year). In fact as I write this, in the last few hours gold is attempting to make up the losses of the last few days, rallying $20 (1.2%) in the 2 hours. Go figure.
Are traders predicting an imminent breakout of EMU with a lot of printing to deal with debt? I doubt it, so this isn't making a lot of sense to me. Regardless of my own personal bullish views on gold, the market always has a reason for what it's doing. I will try and figure it out tomorrow.
Hate weekends, lots of rumours and speculation but no data nor trading
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The guys on he forum once told me that certain broker platforms allow parcel trades like that where you program conditions and it lets loose on the market. When you have parcel buying it means someone is picking up large positions without trying to alert the market or exhaust his entry price.
Parcel selling on the other hand is the opposite - they do this so they can get the on market bid and unload a large position.
The thing is, the position cannot have been that large considering it was unloading 550 a minute for the entire trading session - that only equals to 198000 units - which is peanuts for a penny stock.
Parcel selling on the other hand is the opposite - they do this so they can get the on market bid and unload a large position.
The thing is, the position cannot have been that large considering it was unloading 550 a minute for the entire trading session - that only equals to 198000 units - which is peanuts for a penny stock.
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Yes certain platforms allow your trades to be totaled up at the end of the day and only pay 1 brokerage fee so this allows for as many small parcels as you like at the same cost as 1 large trade.
I dont see this trade as a bad thing ,what I do see it as is a person or persons trying to keep RED trading at 18.5 for that day for a particular reason (only they know what that reason is).
They cant do it forever can they?
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Well see that's what I was thinking, but trading firms have up-to-date data in miliseconds, they do not need to put in a new trade every minute, they can just do it within a second of a higher (ie. 0.19) trade happening. This is just so confusing
I'm eager to see what Monday's trading will bring for RED.
I'm eager to see what Monday's trading will bring for RED.
Yes certain platforms allow your trades to be totaled up at the end of the day and only pay 1 brokerage fee so this allows for as many small parcels as you like at the same cost as 1 large trade.
I dont see this trade as a bad thing ,what I do see it as is a person or persons trying to keep RED trading at 18.5 for that day for a particular reason (only they know what that reason is).
They cant do it forever can they?
All! i am new to this share market thing and i hold a small amount of RED shares.But this person or persons trying to keep RED trading at 18.5 for that day for a particular reason (only they know what that particular reason is) sort of worries me is there a possibility of insider trading or is this kind of trading the Norm
From what i am trying to understand it could be a benefit for long term traders but i do not Know!
Cheers
Des
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I have that same trading platform (instant data) yes it is an advantage but its the tools that come with it that are more important IMOWell see that's what I was thinking, but trading firms have up-to-date data in miliseconds, they do not need to put in a new trade every minute, they can just do it within a second of a higher (ie. 0.19) trade happening. This is just so confusing
I'm eager to see what Monday's trading will bring for RED.
Des traders can easilly get caught up watching every movement, this sort of trading isnt normal but it does happen.
The important facts to remember are that RED has the fundamentals and has a lot of good news coming in the very near future, before its commisioning and first gold pour.
Longer term holders may remember a while back when there was a blocking order of 3 mil and another 2 mil right behind it from memory...anyhow they for some reason were trying to hold RED back it worked for about one and a half weeks until someone with a lot of cash chewed in and took a huge chunk of it...they soon removed the rest from the sell list.
Anyhow when there is no debt strong fundementals with strong near future income, no amount of chain will hold it back.
Mark my words the future for RED is awsome.
Bookmark this post and bring it back up in 12 months my freind.
DYOR
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Well, see, there is a benifit to this and a reason.
What happens is as what has already been explained in terms of platforms allowing parcel trades. Star, though it is probably feasible to run a trade per second, it defeats the purpose of the system.
The traders exit target was 0.185cps, for instance - without knowing fully his reason or target frame. Now let's say he had 500,000 units of RED, but the bids in 0.185cps were 200K, and for 0.18cps 200K, and 0.175cps had 100K (for arguments sake). Well if he dumps too quickly he won't get his target, he may even lose. However, if he flicks off some parcels over time, the day traders who may see an oppertunity or perhaps people wanting to top up or average down will replenish the 0.185cps bids, allowing him to acertain the price. If he dumped them all, he would spook the market and perhaps fend off buyers.
So, that is what it was in my opinion. Given, it is very annoying. Alas, there is nothing that can be done.
What happens is as what has already been explained in terms of platforms allowing parcel trades. Star, though it is probably feasible to run a trade per second, it defeats the purpose of the system.
The traders exit target was 0.185cps, for instance - without knowing fully his reason or target frame. Now let's say he had 500,000 units of RED, but the bids in 0.185cps were 200K, and for 0.18cps 200K, and 0.175cps had 100K (for arguments sake). Well if he dumps too quickly he won't get his target, he may even lose. However, if he flicks off some parcels over time, the day traders who may see an oppertunity or perhaps people wanting to top up or average down will replenish the 0.185cps bids, allowing him to acertain the price. If he dumped them all, he would spook the market and perhaps fend off buyers.
So, that is what it was in my opinion. Given, it is very annoying. Alas, there is nothing that can be done.
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Personally if I wanted to dump say 500,000 without spooking the market I would do 15 orders at random amounts (40000,30000,50000etc)
I believe that this person(s) didnt want RED up or down on Friday so kept a continuas flow at 18.5 .
If it dropped they force it back up with a buy order at 18.5 and if it rises put a sell order of 18.5 (this is ok if you have plenty to play with).
I know it sounds dumb but the parcels were way to small for someone dumping.
My
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Firstly I would like to say get outside and don't waste time worrying about someone who sold $12 worth of shares on Friday and listen to Beatle more!
Nevertheless, I have had a bit of a scout around to see what explanations there are. For curiosities sake, the trading is most likely a MM who needs to show a specific number of transactions in a stock to maintain that status for RED with brokers. That is what I could come up with. Might be weak and open to corrections or dispute.
There appears to be no price manipulation resulting from the orders and at no time did anyone seem to see this trading holding anything down or up.
The only other suggestion is it appears that the trading was very thin on Friday leading in to Europe's weekend and maybe (but so few shares traded) someone wanted to underpin the number of trades (couldn't be volume as this was v. small) to dilute any large parcel movements on the day. (Assuming that in looking for large parcels, you were working on volume divided by # trades). For what ends who knows, who really cares. If you want in you could have bought at 18.5 and same if you wanted out - Monday should reflect some optimism from US markets and RED should catch a little wind so anyone that wanted to support the price won't need to anymore and anyone that wanted push it down won't be able to sell down the market anymore. It may be contradictory to say don't waste your time worrying about it, then take the time to form a long post, but may be of interest to someone. Have a nice day.
Nevertheless, I have had a bit of a scout around to see what explanations there are. For curiosities sake, the trading is most likely a MM who needs to show a specific number of transactions in a stock to maintain that status for RED with brokers. That is what I could come up with. Might be weak and open to corrections or dispute.
There appears to be no price manipulation resulting from the orders and at no time did anyone seem to see this trading holding anything down or up.
The only other suggestion is it appears that the trading was very thin on Friday leading in to Europe's weekend and maybe (but so few shares traded) someone wanted to underpin the number of trades (couldn't be volume as this was v. small) to dilute any large parcel movements on the day. (Assuming that in looking for large parcels, you were working on volume divided by # trades). For what ends who knows, who really cares. If you want in you could have bought at 18.5 and same if you wanted out - Monday should reflect some optimism from US markets and RED should catch a little wind so anyone that wanted to support the price won't need to anymore and anyone that wanted push it down won't be able to sell down the market anymore. It may be contradictory to say don't waste your time worrying about it, then take the time to form a long post, but may be of interest to someone. Have a nice day.
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Just for the record I just cant get up and go for a walk, I mostly post on this forum when im at work and bored (thank god for laptops)
As for the price movement it did bounce up to 19 cents on a few occasions (6 to be exact).
The 1 minute chart shows it all.
Definatly not a conspiracy and world isnt going to come to an end (its just something trade related to have a chin wag about).
Im sorry If I got up your nose mr.jeff but i do dribble a bit when I get bored
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Yes you can throw out 15 random orders but you will pay brokerage 15 times as opposed to the single fee.
Then again, we have another theory in terms of the "MM".
Get up and go for a walk? No chance - My business is here and my investments are here. I watch them until 4-5pm, then I get up
Then again, we have another theory in terms of the "MM".
Get up and go for a walk? No chance - My business is here and my investments are here. I watch them until 4-5pm, then I get up
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All meant light heartedly, no problems at all. I can hardly talk spending the whole day digging around for more information on market action. Lets see what the week brings.
Should be a positive, perhaps slightly stagnant start to the week. Good luck.
Just wait until production begins, that will be something to talk about.
Should be a positive, perhaps slightly stagnant start to the week. Good luck.
Just wait until production begins, that will be something to talk about.
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Cheers, that's quite interesting.
Now with RED, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is listed here in Australia on the ASX and also in Philippines - and nowhere else? So these US managed funds that only invest in $1+ companies, would they buy it from our stock market or the other(s)? Are we guaranteed any benefit?
Wow, you guys were busy posting during the weekend, looks like you really focused those small orders we've been having. Actually that sort of trading has been happening in RED (and many other stocks) for quite a while and in this instance I wonder if it was aimed to make traders take their minds off the main event, with regards to the consolidation proposal. At the end of the day the small orders, even when you aggregate them up, don't amount to much in terms of shares changing hands.
Starcraftmazter has brought up an interesting point, and its quite relevant for RED and future trading. I am unsure if you can trade RED in the Philippines, I do recall some commentary with regard to the company having some arrangement there, but not sure how efficient that trading, if any, is undertaken.
BUT going forward, there is every likelihood that RED will be dual listed (or tri-listed, whatever that word is!) in North America, once it develops steady state production. CGX, which has got a significant shareholding base in North America is listed somewhere over there, and has also been investigating a HK listing. The reason being that those jurisdictions tend to trade at higher multiples to the ASX listings, especially for overseas assets such as in the Philippines. Thus if RED is more readily attractive to the bigger investment fund managers by being seen to have a higher share price, rather than being priced with the stigma of being a penny dreadful, then we are more likely to benefit from going through this consolidation process.
From my point of view if there is any possibility of getting a wider, bigger audience overseas then I am all for it!
I would imagine that RED will put out its quarterly later this week, I understand the chairman is due back mid-week. Its unlikely that an announcement will come out before then, and I am hoping we will see a separate announcement on other matters. Here's hoping...
Starcraftmazter has brought up an interesting point, and its quite relevant for RED and future trading. I am unsure if you can trade RED in the Philippines, I do recall some commentary with regard to the company having some arrangement there, but not sure how efficient that trading, if any, is undertaken.
BUT going forward, there is every likelihood that RED will be dual listed (or tri-listed, whatever that word is!) in North America, once it develops steady state production. CGX, which has got a significant shareholding base in North America is listed somewhere over there, and has also been investigating a HK listing. The reason being that those jurisdictions tend to trade at higher multiples to the ASX listings, especially for overseas assets such as in the Philippines. Thus if RED is more readily attractive to the bigger investment fund managers by being seen to have a higher share price, rather than being priced with the stigma of being a penny dreadful, then we are more likely to benefit from going through this consolidation process.
From my point of view if there is any possibility of getting a wider, bigger audience overseas then I am all for it!
I would imagine that RED will put out its quarterly later this week, I understand the chairman is due back mid-week. Its unlikely that an announcement will come out before then, and I am hoping we will see a separate announcement on other matters. Here's hoping...