Underground fireproof bunkers

Steen7771 said:

We can make 2 per day, possible 4 if we trippled our staff. They are normally under $5000 but each site is different and each shelter or bunker has custom features, access, etc. eg - we can cast in roll bars around the entry to prevent fallen branches blocking your escape .

A very large one, for say 8 adults, would be just under $8000.

Steen

Be safe everyone.

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What temperature could they withstand, if underground or if it was 80 degrees outside with fire what would the temp be inside?

8k !! . personally think thats cheap


good luck with your venture and may prosperity shine on you

investorpaul said:

What temperature could they withstand, if underground or if it was 80 degrees outside with fire what would the temp be inside?

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The doors are insulated, steel clad. they are also small to prevent animals escaping and heat getting through. They will warm up, but the concrete continues to cool the air. we wouldn't sell you one if you were going to install it near a wood pile, so the only lingering flames would be grass. or leaves.

It'll heat up for sure, but only the door, and only for 20 mins. A good pair of welding gloves are inside to open the door after you're sure the "ball of hell" has passed.

Underground, with a small entry, and an insulated entry, it won't cook you.

Also, if you build one or buy one, tell someone - CFA, police - neighbor, kids, parents .

Steen

A lot of people were saved by going into their coolgardie safes during the fires of 1939 so a old timer told me today, back then with no fridges they dug a hole in the ground lined it and used wet hessian as a door and stored the sides of beef and other perishables, so the bunker is not a new idea.

well I don't think this has been hullabulloo or debate . I think it has been a collection of good constructive ideas and experiences to date. Good luck with your business Steen .

seasprite said:

well I don't think this has been hullabulloo or debate . I think it has been a collection of good constructive ideas and experiences to date. Good luck with your business Steen .

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indeed Seasprite, I agree this forum has sound, intelligent contributors. I was forgetting that with my readings on other more "commercial" forums and talk-back.

I hope any advice i offered to bushies will be helpful someday.

Cheers!

goto http://www.carltonhandyman.com, and click on 'Firepit Australia' - looks interesting.... Seems what people are looking for - a reasonably priced fire bunker?

Positive air pressure?
SCUBA tanks too expensive?
Oxy bottles promote spontaneous combustion?

How many of you have an air compressor in the shed?

A small GMC compressor will set you back about $100 at bunnings.

Even simpler, you can purchase larger new cylinders for less than $100 and with enough forewarning (i.e. bushfires may occur tomorrow) you could use your 4wd tyre pump to get enough air into it to keep people supplied with breathable air for the period where the outside air is thick with smoke and/or you need to seal your retreat while the firestorm is sucking up all available oxygen.

I recall an interview with a guy who survived in his purpose built bunker. The fire found an entrance into his bunker, via the hole drilled for his electrical cabling. He said (along the lines of) the flame coming out of the hole (into his bunker) was like an oxy torch.

Now that is a sobering thought.

geselle

psteinb said:

goto http://www.carltonhandyman.com, and click on 'Firepit Australia' - looks interesting.... Seems what people are looking for - a reasonably priced fire bunker?

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please all beware the re-purposing of plastic water tanks! These tanks are only rated to be underground when they're full of water, so the weight of the earth pushing in equals the weight of the water pushing out. Empty, they can literally rise up out of the ground.

I don't fancy melting plastic around the manhole dripping onto me either.

The government is sure to implement standards on these - don't do it half cocked. Make sure you have something strong enough to be legal when it becomes required.

Tell me how six people in a plastic tank survive when that gum tree loses a branch over your roof?

This applies equally to septic tanks as well. There are now pictures on www.fireshelters.com

Before any re-building starts we need find out if insurance is available and how much it will rise in the future.
Remember insurance Co. are there to make money and with N.QLD flooded and now this and how knows whats around the corner the fire victims won't be able to get insurance and no insurance means no money from the Banks.

geselle said:

Positive air pressure?
SCUBA tanks too expensive?
Oxy bottles promote spontaneous combustion?

How many of you have an air compressor in the shed?

A small GMC compressor will set you back about $100 at bunnings.

Even simpler, you can purchase larger new cylinders for less than $100 and with enough forewarning (i.e. bushfires may occur tomorrow) you could use your 4wd tyre pump to get enough air into it to keep people supplied with breathable air for the period where the outside air is thick with smoke and/or you need to seal your retreat while the firestorm is sucking up all available oxygen.

I recall an interview with a guy who survived in his purpose built bunker. The fire found an entrance into his bunker, via the hole drilled for his electrical cabling. He said (along the lines of) the flame coming out of the hole (into his bunker) was like an oxy torch.

Now that is a sobering thought.

geselle

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You say get a compressor, tell me it has to suck air from some place, how do you stop it from sucking in smoke??

pilots said:

You say get a compressor, tell me it has to suck air from some place, how do you stop it from sucking in smoke??

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I understood that you compress air into large bottle a day or so before bushfire.

My problem with that is that normal compressor does not provide breathable air, it provides air only for industrial use.
It is contaminated by poisonous oil and greases lubricating ordinary compressor parts, for breathable air you need compressor specially adapted for that purpose.

I know, almost splitting hairs, if there is no good quality air any air has to do, but it might affect health of people exposed to that air.

Good point, how ever, bad air is better than no air. I have seen fire shelters in Canada, it was a 2000 gal concrete water tank set in to the side of a hill, the door was made of only wood, but they had a brick wall across the front,this was a heat shield, you had to walk abound the wall to get to the door, the wall also protects the door from falling trees blocking your door.

What I find amazing in the discussions on rebuilding in Vic after the fires is NO mention of earth-bermed housing (underground housing to some). This old hippy idea from the 70's has a lot going for it. Fireproof on the roof and at least two sides. And the exposed sides can be secured with industrial shutters (forget the fance toughened glass) that can be electrified with battery back-up (and if you're really insane, water sprays to give a wet curtain).

In addition, you get great thermal properties, full security for long absences and minimal maintenance - just think, no more gutters to clean 2-3 times a year! There seems to be a mental block about having earth around your home in Australia - people are concerned about dampness. Well, there are continents and countries full of people who have basements and they're not even damp.

You don't have to be on a sloping block to have the opportunity to go 'underground'. I visited an earth bermed house on a dead flat block in Nove Scotia in Canada - as you looked at it, there was an exposed front face, earth up the sides and over the roof, and the back was half and half.

Others complain about darkness - well, people live in apratments where windows can only be found on one, at best two sides and they pay millions for the privilege on the Gold Coast. We re-designed our house to take the same room layouts, but with minor changes so that all rooms had at least one window but the main hallway had none so solar tubes will light it to daylight standards.

There are still some architects from the 70's doing earth-sheltered housing. See http://www.shelterspace.com/contact.htm for a South Aussie one (and some pictures of earth-sheltered homes in the Adeliade Hills)

What research has CSIRO done on fire bunkers?

What research has CSIRO done on fire bunkers?

CSIRO is not currently conducting research into bushfire bunkers or shelters. Previous research by the Department of Defence indicated that underground bunkers may not be safe in bushfires due to the accumulation of toxic gases coming from a bushfire itself.

Bunkers were recommended and used around the time of the 1939 Black Friday bushfires to provide some shelter to mill workers who had no other protection from bushfires when working in the forests. Current research indicates that a well designed and prepared house can provide adequate protection (see question ‘is a house safe in a bushfire’) during a bushfire.

The use, design and efficacy of current era bunkers has not been investigated by CSIRO.

As with any form of bushfire refuge, bushfire bunkers must be assessed in an overall context taking into consideration issues such as:

· expected bushfire behaviour

· design and construction criteria

· preparation and maintenance

· intended and probable use of the bunker

· establishing a safe path to the bunker.

As well as the technical issues, there are a range of other considerations including:

· decision making processes and education around when to retreat to the bunker

· when to close off a bunker

· how long to remain in the bunker

· how to determine when it is safe to exit the bunker.

CSIRO has the capability to engage in the underpinning science for future policy and regulation development covering issues like:

· circumstances where a bunker may or may not be appropriate

· position of the bunker and its proximity to other objects

· designing a bunker

· maintenance and safety considerations.

Areas of bushfire research CSIRO has been involved in include:

· performance of buildings and materials under fire exposure conditions

· integrated town planning and house design for sustainability and bushfire survival

· robustness and role played by residential fence systems and water storage tanks in bushfire prone areas

· product development, verification and enhancement for use in bushfire-prone areas (specialist coatings, glazing protection, timber deck design)

· assessing house vulnerability and bushfire risk at the urban interface

· understanding bushfire behaviour and risk

· analysis of major bushfire events

· fire detection technology

· controlled burning programs

· enhancing firefighter and community safety

· aerial and ground suppression

· managing fire in different vegetation types

· the effects of bushfire burnovers on passenger vehicles

· design and performance of fire vehicle protection systems on bushfire burnovers.

Find out more about CSIRO's bushfire research.

sam76 said:

..

Previous research by the Department of Defence indicated that underground bunkers may not be safe in bushfires due to the accumulation of toxic gases coming from a bushfire itself.

..

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But no comment on improving air quality by means of filtration or independent oxygen production.

After the Victorian Bushfires i have researched, specifically designed and Patent a new Flat Pack Fire Bunker. I’m a Structural Enginner with a PHD. Have a look at our site flatpackfirebunkers

10. Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
May 11th, 2009 at 9:42 pm

We are mechanical engineers with a good appreciation of the requirements for surviving a bush fire. We have designed a shelter that is specifically developed to resist the intense radiant heat and have sufficient air volume for each individual (size varies as numbers of individuals specified for shelter). The shelter also includes shielded viewing ports for surveillance in four directions. It is constructed to be partially below ground with enough above ground to judge a safe time to leave. The shelter is designed to be occupied for periods up to at least one hour without significant temperature rise inside from fire. Seating, and provision for water and safety apparel is provided for each occupant. Doors are provided at each end to ensure access for safe entry and exit. The doors cannot be locked so rescue from outside is always possible. Easy stair and ramp options are available. The roof of the shelter is constructured such that it may be used for other purposes thus avoiding loss of yard space.
Additional designs have been prepared for above ground and come either as skid mounted or suited for crane placement. These units may be suitable for firefighters as retreats.
A range of optional equipment has been designed including an auxiliary air unit to improve the safety of some of the other types of units being sold.
We have also designed shutters that will eliminate radiant heat entering windows on houses. These are easily fitted and may be made any size.
Additional information will be made available as requested by contacting the contacts nominated on the website.
11. Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
May 12th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

Website for the above http://www.wombatsburrow.com.au

What do YOU think?

tlumley/graham said:

10. Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
May 11th, 2009 at 9:42 pm

We are mechanical engineers with a good appreciation of the requirements for surviving a bush fire. We have designed a shelter that is specifically developed to resist the intense radiant heat and have sufficient air volume for each individual (size varies as numbers of individuals specified for shelter). The shelter also includes shielded viewing ports for surveillance in four directions. It is constructed to be partially below ground with enough above ground to judge a safe time to leave. The shelter is designed to be occupied for periods up to at least one hour without significant temperature rise inside from fire. Seating, and provision for water and safety apparel is provided for each occupant. Doors are provided at each end to ensure access for safe entry and exit. The doors cannot be locked so rescue from outside is always possible. Easy stair and ramp options are available. The roof of the shelter is constructured such that it may be used for other purposes thus avoiding loss of yard space.
Additional designs have been prepared for above ground and come either as skid mounted or suited for crane placement. These units may be suitable for firefighters as retreats.
A range of optional equipment has been designed including an auxiliary air unit to improve the safety of some of the other types of units being sold.
We have also designed shutters that will eliminate radiant heat entering windows on houses. These are easily fitted and may be made any size.
Additional information will be made available as requested by contacting the contacts nominated on the website.
11. Tony Lumley/Graham Burleigh Says:
May 12th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

Website for the above http://www.wombatsburrow.com.au

What do YOU think?

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They look like wombat holes in the photos. Are the little holes for one person only or do the holes link up into one big burrow? I couldn't see any other photos to clearly show what they are.

Many lives have been saved by crawling into concrete culverts.