Trading Pursuits

[Ruby]

Re: Family addicted to schemes / spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Hi Gill,

You don't say who you mean by 'family', so I am assuming parents.

Would it help if you showed them some of the things that have been written on this forum about PP and other organisations like it? There are many of them - they proliferate on the Gold Coast like wire coat hangers in the cupboard. There are good courses taught by honest people, but you have to look for them and be very discerning.

Daniel Kertcher has been around for a long time - more than 10 years I think. If his strategies are so good why does he not just use them himself and make millions of dollars that way? It would be a lot less labour intensive for him! The answer is, of course, that it is much more lucrative for him to sell his course to unsuspecting people desperate to make some quick and easy money. I don't know how much his course costs, but it's not hard to do some rough calculations - 50 people in a room for a weekend @ $5,000 a head = $250,000. Now that's good money!!!

I have been a trader for quite a few years. I have also worked for financial services companies, so I have met a lot of people who trade. Most of them lose money. Many of them become trading course 'junkies' going from this course to that, because the next one holds the 'secret' to success. The people who take their money don't care.

If your parents are absolutely determined to proceed, perhaps you could achieve more by changing your tactics. Say you will support them - study the course material with them - and in return ask them to be a bit more circumspect and objective and to take their time and do a lot more research before they rush into investing further money. Don't know - it might help if you appear to be 'for' them rather than 'against' them.

 

[sails]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

...PPs latest genius strategy i have been told involves some sort of leveraged covered calls strategy using guaranteed stop losses. Apparently ONLY PPs students have access to a broker who will allow the strategy.

This is so typical of these types of courses. The fact that they you need to have a "special" broker adds to the exclusiveness of this being something only known to a select group. I don't know of too many brokers that would touch it, so there would have to be good commissions in it for the broker, I would imagine.

Search ASF for "covered calls" as this type of strategy has been discussed many times. Whether stops are "guaranteed" by the use of CFDs or by the purchase of puts when using shares, the principles remain somewhat similar.

However, I suspect that it will be difficult to change your family's views until they start losing money. The trap is that it is possible to make a little money using these types of covered call or naked put strategies, however, one loss can easily wipe out months of gains.

I have heard it aptly descriped as "Eat like a bird, **** like an elephant"...

I speak from my own experience. Went to a seminar and became excited with covered calls. Had to use a "special" broker whom we found out later charged excessive "boutique" type of brokerage and fees. Still, we were so inspired by the ability to earn exceptionally good money especially with the added bonus of margin lending... And we met others who were doing this and one guy had sold all his rental properties and put the money into covered calls. So we wasted no time in getting this up and running.

Although, the first sold call made a few cents of profit, the underlying shares took a spectatular dive and we were losing thousands each passing day. Protective puts had been purchased, however they were about a 15% lower, so they really didn't do a lot to help.

Needless to say, it was a valuable lesson. But if your family are hell bent on doing this, I doubt that you will be able to stop them. Can only hope they don't lose too much when the losses will most likely catch up with them.

Can anyone help explain to me:
- why this strategy or others arn't anywhere near as good as promised
- What the risks are (PP have my family convinced that these strategies guarantee BIG upside with 0 risk due to guaranteed stops.. this to me is inherently impossible)
- Any advice as to how to approach my family. They have worked for many years to achieve their very modest wealth and I don't want them squandering it on a strategy pushed by some fool with a stupid haircut.

Please help! they are insisting I attend this course!

Premiums are usually quite small compared to losses that can strike quite quickly - that's one of the biggest issues. One significant loss can wipe out months of gains rapidly.

There can't be zero risk with guaranteed stops. I believe there is a purchase cost to them as the broker would most likely be using put options to hedge himself. There will be loss on the guaranteed loss premium or the put premium from time decay. The other larger area of loss is the distance between the guaranteed stop and the purchase price of the stock.

For example using a $10 stock. Lets say you get 20c premium on a sold call slightly OTM. You buy the stock at $10 and guaranteed stop is at $9. There will be some cost to this guranteed stop. But what if the market goes below $9 and stays below for some time. Now you have a a $1 loss (plus cost of on going guaranteed stops which is now likely to be higher as the $9 or you make the decision to put the guaranteed stop lower as it should be cheaper to purchase. Whichever way, the small premiums will have trouble repaying losses.

And don't forget that when purchasing CFDs, one is liable to pay interest for any trade held overnight. These rates are usually a set some percentage points above the risk free rate. It is another cost to consider.

And then if the market suddenly shoots back up after being down for a while, future profits are then often capped due to the sold call now being much lower. I found it to be a total mugs game unless one could accurately predict market movements.

I have never used the strategy with CFDs but can't see that it would be much different than using shares and a margin loan. I understand both products well.

Hope this helps - although it's just my

PS: this thread may be useful: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21088
and it has a link to this article on ASIC warnings on CFDs: http://www.smh.com.au/business/beware-of-cfds-warns-asic-20101123-185nr.html

 

[professor_frink]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Hi All,

My first post here and I'm writing to ask for advice on platinum pursuits.

My family has fallen hook line and sinker for this latest "wonder kid" get rich quick scheme, promising up a minimum of 5% per month return.

I have read the reports on here and they have further confirmed my thinking that this strategy will not work in the long term and this Kertcher guys strategy is no where near as impressive as his sales ability.

My numerous protests have been met with angry denial by my family who keep coming back to unimpressive figures like:

- In the last 6months they have made 120% annualised equivalent return!!
- My friend has been following his strategy and has made 50 winning trades in the last 12 months!!

I have no love for a company that professes its strategy is brilliant because it worked over 6-12months in a market that has only gone up.

PPs latest genius strategy i have been told involves some sort of leveraged covered calls strategy using guaranteed stop losses. Apparently ONLY PPs students have access to a broker who will allow the strategy.

Can anyone help explain to me:
- why this strategy or others arn't anywhere near as good as promised
- What the risks are (PP have my family convinced that these strategies guarantee BIG upside with 0 risk due to guaranteed stops.. this to me is inherently impossible)
- Any advice as to how to approach my family. They have worked for many years to achieve their very modest wealth and I don't want them squandering it on a strategy pushed by some fool with a stupid haircut.

Please help! they are insisting I attend this course!

based on my limited experience with people I know who have signed up for schemes promising the world, there really isn't much you can do to bring them back to reality. Once someone's brain starts thinking only about how much money they'll make, then it's pretty well impossible to talk sense into them.

Best case IMO is they get easily discouraged when it turns out to be a lot of work for minimal reward and walk away before any real damage is done.

Try and refrain from the "I told you so" speech if it turns out to be a fizzer, it won't go over well with someone that has just lost a few thousand dollars.

 

[nunthewiser]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Send em my way

Have i got a deal for them!

 

[Agentm]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Send em my way

Have i got a deal for them!

i agree

totally happy to get them better returns than platinum, i can give them gold plated returns.. and in a far shorter time frame..

i guarantee i can empty their accounts in a heartbeat..

 

[skc]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

There can't be zero risk with guaranteed stops. I believe there is a purchase cost to them as the broker would most likely be using put options to hedge himself. There will be loss on the guaranteed loss premium or the put premium from time decay. The other larger area of loss is the distance between the guaranteed stop and the purchase price of the stock.

For example using a $10 stock. Lets say you get 20c premium on a sold call slightly OTM. You buy the stock at $10 and guaranteed stop is at $9. There will be some cost to this guranteed stop. But what if the market goes below $9 and stays below for some time. Now you have a a $1 loss (plus cost of on going guaranteed stops which is now likely to be higher as the $9 or you make the decision to put the guaranteed stop lower as it should be cheaper to purchase. Whichever way, the small premiums will have trouble repaying losses.

And don't forget that when purchasing CFDs, one is liable to pay interest for any trade held overnight. These rates are usually a set some percentage points above the risk free rate. It is another cost to consider.

And then if the market suddenly shoots back up after being down for a while, future profits are then often capped due to the sold call now being much lower. I found it to be a total mugs game unless one could accurately predict market movements.

I have never used the strategy with CFDs but can't see that it would be much different than using shares and a margin loan. I understand both products well.

Hope this helps - although it's just my

Guaranteed stops if touched are executed and the position will be closed. So they are much worse than protective puts.

I have heard it aptly descriped as "Eat like a bird, **** like an elephant"...

"Picking up pennies in front of steam roller" is always a good one.
"Reverse lottery" is another good description.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Send em my way

Have i got a deal for them!

Agree with nun mate.

Your family need a dream. And they have it.

When nun is finished can I have a few moments with them.

I have found a way to turn moist air in to water, purely by using a dinner plate.

I need some seed money to get it going.

ps

It also boils eggs.

gg

 

[1337trader]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

You can't stop em, they're hooked.

Do your VERY BEST to convince them to trade with a small account first. It will be hard, because selling calls seems like easy money, they will be tempted to do their whole account. When they lose big, hopefully they will learn and wake up from their fantasy.

 

[matty77]

Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

hey mate, I feel for you, I really do!

A very close relative had been using one of these systems for about the last 2 years, I think in the end they lost about $25,000 in $ doing the trades, and spent the same amount on the seminars and stuff, so all up probably around $50k It took me 2 YEARS TO CONVINCE THEM to stop doing it, as someone else suggested you should offer to learn the system with them, then when it all starts to turn to crap make sure you push hard for them to get out!

good luck, I know how frustrating it can be to see people piss away hard earned cash.

 

[Gunslinger]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

I know little about the details of the strategy proposed by PP and others can comment on it far better than I but I would ask them how much they stand to lose in a single trade / day if it goes against them.
If possible illustrate to them by examples of current (today's) trades.
e.g. BHP lost $0.93 (1.97%) today. what would their situation have looked like if they'd been in that trade today?
If it's highly leveraged they would be looking at a lot larger loss.
Another question would be what are they paying in interest and how will that eat away at their profits if they're in a long running trade.

IMO, until you really know what you're doing, you should only invest what you can afford to lose.

HTH,
JB

 

[matty77]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

You can suggest any logic you like but it wont work after being brain washed for a few hours (days) and hyped up about making money. Wait until they go to a seminar in Fiji, then you are in real trouble.

 

[sails]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

...
"Picking up pennies in front of steam roller" is always a good one.
"Reverse lottery" is another good description.

Yes, there are a few good descriptions around that show the stupidity of these systems in the long run....

...IMO, until you really know what you're doing, you should only invest what you can afford to lose....

I'm not sure that the seminar "educators" would talk much about losses. In my own experience with these types of seminars, they gloss over risk of mention of losses with a glib, "you've got your stop loss". In real life it isn't quite that easy and so you go into it without a care in the world and very little understanding of the risks involved. IMO, many of those taking on these types of trades probably have no idea how much they are risking and have a false security that they can't lose much.

Once I learned about options and the basics of reading risk graphs, it puts it all into a whole different perspective...

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

They may be interested in this, if they have anything left over to spend after their present foray in to limp lessons in getting poor quickly.


https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22025&p=617063#post617063

gg

 

[Gillc10]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone.

I posted on this forum because I have seen some excellent commentary around certain strategies here.

Its been a really tough time for me recently. I have put forward the below which has been met with angry denial

1. Have found many reports on the internet (forums) of unhappy PP customers who have lost money.

Response: Well its usually the disgruntled ones that post on the internet.

2. If this guy was so good and could make 100% p/a guaranteed he would be the head of a multibillion dollar hedge fund and wouldn't be selling courses

Response: He's going to be big. XYZ broker have been wanting to do business with him for a long time and now finally have an agreement. Oh and all these people I've met through these courses have been making money some of who include finance professionals and other.

3. It is impossible to have great upside with no downside risk

Response: He has state of the art never been seen before risk management strategies!

4. I don't like this guy he seems like a con artist. I watched one of his 1hr online presentations where he uses Warren Buffet's quote "derivatives are weapons of mass destruction" and flips it saying Warren means there you can make BIG money off derivatives. I mean what the hell? the guy is either stupid or he's a sleazy snake oil salesman. I'm going with the latter.

Response: Oh thats just marketing spin. I get it I use the same if I am to sell something.

I'm banging my head against a wall here. But I can see how so many people would be taken in with the old "If I could teach you a way to retire trading options, only working 2 hours a week.. is that something you'd be interested in??"

I'm worried that, with most things market related, it can take a few years before the deficiencies of a strategy can come to light.

Problem is that I'm quite young (26) and I'm seen to them as inexperienced. I have the sense to know that this thing stinks gained from majoring in finance at university and working as a junior investment banker (M&A not trading), but I don't have the knowledge of options and trading to really dissect something and tear it apart.
My family (yes parents) won't even listen to me until I attend the PP course. I was hoping to avoid this as I think even then they are too sold on the dream to listen.

So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. Hey I might even learn something. Hopefully I can come back and get some insight into my findings!

 

[Gillc10]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

They may be interested in this, if they have anything left over to spend after their present foray in to limp lessons in getting poor quickly.


https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22025&p=617063#post617063

gg

HAHA sorry they have already done the whole Anthony Robbins thing! =(

 

[Ruby]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Problem is that I'm quite young (26) and I'm seen to them as inexperienced. I have the sense to know that this thing stinks gained from majoring in finance at university and working as a junior investment banker (M&A not trading), but I don't have the knowledge of options and trading to really dissect something and tear it apart.
My family (yes parents) won't even listen to me until I attend the PP course. I was hoping to avoid this as I think even then they are too sold on the dream to listen.

So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. Hey I might even learn something. Hopefully I can come back and get some insight into my findings!

Doing the course with them, as a last resort, might be a good idea. It would give you more leverage with your parents at a later date if you know what they are talking about, and they cannot accuse you of not knowing what you are saying.

You could arm yourself with a lot of sticky questions to ask Kertcher, and it may even help you in your own career to know first hand what fraudulent crap is being peddled by these people and others like them.

Once you have proof of what is going on you could even lodge a complaint with ASIC. They will not move unless a complaint is made.

If you want to learn something about options beforehand, the ASX website has some good information - and it's free! Good luck!

 

[luke256]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. Hey I might even learn something. Hopefully I can come back and get some insight into my findings!

If your family insist you go to let them pay the 4k. If your family are going anyway wouldn't it be better if you used the 4k for a different course. That way you could read the materials from PP and they could learn form the course material you got.

I never understood why people go in groups to these courses and each individually pay a fee. It would be better for each person in the family to buy a different course and share the books and dvds between each other.

 

[matty77]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Like I said, no point in arguing the point with them, they are convinced and you cant change that.... go to the course, keep your eyes and ears open, that will give you a better understanding of how these fraudsters work - it really is quiet amazing how smooth the talk, and how hyped up they can get you, just dont get sucked in like your parents did. I share your frustration, ive seen it all before, and sometimes people just have to have a valuable lesson, lets hope it doesnt wipe them out!

 

[builder2818]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

Kiss your inheritance good bye......platinum Pursuits and their brokers are going to get it before you do.

Do you have any brothers and sisters that can team up with you to put an end to this rubbish?

 

[Ruby]

Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits

2. If this guy was so good and could make 100% p/a guaranteed he would be the head of a multibillion dollar hedge fund and wouldn't be selling courses

Response: He's going to be big. XYZ broker have been wanting to do business with him for a long time and now finally have an agreement. Oh and all these people I've met through these courses have been making money some of who include finance professionals and other.

I wonder if your parents have the mistaken belief that all brokers are honest, and that somehow, because a broker is connected, it lends professional credibility to the scheme. Tell them there are brokers who should be in jail for the way they fleece their clients - legally! I have proof - proof of my own and proof provided me by other people. The broker concerned is probably salivating at the thought of all the easy money he is about to make.